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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread IV

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Old
02-09-2012, 01:54 PM
  #151
BM67
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Iginla's 3 best years are spread over a 9 year stretch, and St. Louis' are spread over 7 years. They hardly represent what you can count on them to produce in a single season.

Total scores over a 5 year period vs#2

Player1999-042000-062001-072002-082003-092005-102006-11
Martin St. Louis267.29297.73353.31392.72398.14376.33426.74
Jarome Iginla382.19369.64391.93377.71394.20373.59405.99
Daniel Alfredsson367.93388.90405.90410.97403.24376.43324.00
Marian Hossa367.64382.87407.03395.96383.58336.11318.89

Total scores over a 5 year period vs#3

Player1999-042000-062001-072002-082003-092005-102006-11
Martin St. Louis279.98317.74370.52414.04422.40400.59444.07
Jarome Iginla406.37400.35413.43400.49420.56399.96424.50
Daniel Alfredsson390.46422.80430.44437.72432.34405.52339.99
Marian Hossa390.77416.03430.49420.19409.92362.45333.82

Iginla has the best single seasons compared to Alfredsson, but Alfredsson beats Iginla in the 5 periods in the middle of the above tables. Indeed Alfredsson has the highest score of all 4 players in 4 of those 5.

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02-09-2012, 01:57 PM
  #152
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If the goal is to establish a level of consistency, shouldn't the unique circumstances of 2006 be taken into account?

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02-09-2012, 01:58 PM
  #153
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Iginla seems to be the only one of the four to play with very weak linemates for the majority of their prime.

The best player Iginla has ever played with (by my memory) at best is a 4th line center in this draft and the other used to be a regular solid MLD player. All of the others, played a significant amount of time with guys who could play their way into top-six roles.

I also, when picking Iginla, factored the PF style which is so sought after.

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02-09-2012, 02:00 PM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If the goal is to establish a level of consistency, shouldn't the unique circumstances of 2006 be taken into account?
as well as other years like 1989 and 1996? Yes, absolutely. But this is where BM67 and I don't agree. We both like the vs. #2 system but he works for it and I want it to work for me!

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02-09-2012, 02:02 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
Iginla seems to be the only one of the four to play with very weak linemates for the majority of their prime.

The best player Iginla has ever played with (by my memory) at best is a 4th line center in this draft and the other used to be a regular solid MLD player. All of the others, played a significant amount of time with guys who could play their way into top-six roles.

I also, when picking Iginla, factored the PF style which is so sought after.
Iginla's PF status absolutely comes at a premium here - most physical wingers in this thing have inferior offense here.

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02-09-2012, 02:25 PM
  #156
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Short on stats right now, but I found some great quotes concerning Vyacheslav Starshinov.

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02-09-2012, 02:41 PM
  #157
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It's funny, Soviets are often questioned because their style might not translate, and yet, one of the most underrated in Starshinov and he plays arguable the most North American game of any soviet star.

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02-09-2012, 02:44 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If the goal is to establish a level of consistency, shouldn't the unique circumstances of 2006 be taken into account?
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
as well as other years like 1989 and 1996? Yes, absolutely. But this is where BM67 and I don't agree. We both like the vs. #2 system but he works for it and I want it to work for me!
What is consistent about a system that can go from using #2 to #3-4-5-7 in any given year?

Did you miss the part where I also posted the vs#3 numbers? Does this not "fix" 2006 while still being balanced for the period? Using the #2 in every year except 2006, but using the #4 for 2006, you just end up with an orange to compare to your apples.

Alfredsson's score in 05-06 is his 3rd best vs#2, but jumps to his highest using vs#3 or vs#4, so I'm sure what you're going to "fix" anyway.

I see shortening the period from 5 to 3 or 4 years, so you have more periods not including 2006, as a better alternative.

Iginla had more points in 8 of the last 12 seasons, but Alfredsson had 3 straight years with more points from 2002-03 to 2005-06. The 3 years after Iginla's best season.


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02-09-2012, 02:48 PM
  #159
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The problem with 2006 that I was talking about is that you can't just call a player "inconsistent" for having a bad 2006- considering everyone was coming back from a 1 year layoff. It goes both ways - I find players who had career regular seasons taking advantage of rules that apparently only applied to that one season to be highly questionable as well - edit: as a fellow Devils fan, I'm sure you know one specific player I have in mind.

Basically, players who had a good 2006 should get full credit IF it wasn't an outlier for their career, but I don't take outlier good or bad performances very seriously in 2006. And it's not just because I drafted St Louis - I was saying this last year too.

(No issues with 2006 playoffs - by the end of the year, things were basically back up to snuff)


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02-09-2012, 04:04 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The problem with 2006 that I was talking about is that you can't just call a player "inconsistent" for having a bad 2006- considering everyone was coming back from a 1 year layoff. It goes both ways - I find players who had career regular seasons taking advantage of rules that apparently only applied to that one season to be highly questionable as well - edit: as a fellow Devils fan, I'm sure you know one specific player I have in mind.

Basically, players who had a good 2006 should get full credit IF it wasn't an outlier for their career, but I don't take outlier good or bad performances very seriously in 2006. And it's not just because I drafted St Louis - I was saying this last year too.

(No issues with 2006 playoffs - by the end of the year, things were basically back up to snuff)
I don't think an off year is a major sign of inconsistency, and the fact that St. Louis does have the highest scoring 5 year stretch in the chart above should be some consolation.

Iginla is the only player of the 4 that hasn't strung together 5 straight years with more than 70% of the #2 scorer. Yet at the same time he is the only one of the 4 to string together 3 straight over 80%. St. Louis will match that if he does it this season though.

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02-09-2012, 04:46 PM
  #161
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Scratch another name off the list of guys I was hoping to get to center my 1st line when Bugg took Starshinov. For playing a game that is so conducive to success in the ATD, he doesn't get much respect at all. He outscored Firsov domestically.

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02-09-2012, 04:52 PM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Scratch another name off the list of guys I was hoping to get to center my 1st line when Bugg took Starshinov. For playing a game that is so conducive to success in the ATD, he doesn't get much respect at all. He outscored Firsov domestically.
He out-goaled Firsov domestically. We have no records of assists in the Soviet league. Internationally, Firsov showed himself to be a great playmaker, while Starshinov was a very poor one.

Starshinov is a player who I actually soured on somewhat after drafting him last time - especially after seeing how much Firsov outscored him internationally, where assists are actually recorded. His playmaking is terrible for a center (I think it's probably worse than Bowie or Barry, neither of whom should be the primary playmaker on an ATD line). He's definitely a great guy in front of the net, but he needs linemates who can get him the puck when he's in front of the net.

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02-09-2012, 04:53 PM
  #163
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I'm not so sure I care what they did in consecutive seasons. If two guys had identical finishes and percentages in their 5 best years I don't think it would matter to me that one guy did it consecutively (Yzerman?) and the other did it in a more Sakician fashion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
What is consistent about a system that can go from using #2 to #3-4-5-7 in any given year?
the goal is to be consistent and compare players to a fairly static standard of dominance. at least that is my goal. You use #2 and the reason is because #1 is too often highly variable. But so is #2!

------------------------

By the way, TDMM, can you admit something? These four RWs are closer than you probably thought yesterday.

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02-09-2012, 04:57 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
He out-goaled Firsov domestically. We have no records of assists in the Soviet league. Internationally, Firsov showed himself to be a great playmaker, while Starshinov was a very poor one.

Starshinov is a player who I actually soured on somewhat after drafting him last time - especially after seeing how much Firsov outscored him internationally, where assists are actually recorded. His playmaking is terrible for a center (I think it's probably worse than Bowie or Barry, neither of whom should be the primary playmaker on an ATD line). He's definitely a great guy in front of the net, but he needs linemates who can get him the puck when he's in front of the net.
Which is why he'd be quite good with Howe...

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02-09-2012, 05:03 PM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
By the way, TDMM, can you admit something? These four RWs are closer than you probably thought yesterday.
Before the vs 2 comparisons, I said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by me earlier today
I'll get to it eventually if nobody else will. I'm pretty sure it'll show what the rankings show - St. Louis has the highest offensive peak, followed by Iginla, but Alfredsson and Hossa have more longevity as impact players.
Despite originally posting the wrong rankings for St Louis (which was stupid, I knew what his proper rankings were when I drafted him), I think that's a fair statement.

Feel free to disagree, but I didn't see anything presented to change my opinion, other than that I underrated Iginla's longevity as an impact player.

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02-09-2012, 05:06 PM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Before the vs 2 comparisons, I said this:



Despite originally posting the wrong rankings for St Louis (which was stupid, I knew what his proper rankings were when I drafted him), I think that's a fair statement.

Feel free to disagree, but I didn't see anything presented to change my opinion, other than that I underrated Iginla's longevity as an impact player.
My comment was more about how small the difference really turned out to be. You didn't expect it to be more than it was? Your use of the word "ridiculous" indicated maybe you did.

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02-09-2012, 05:11 PM
  #167
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My comment was more about how small the difference really turned out to be. You didn't expect it to be more than it was?
Whether the gap is indeed small depends on how you look at it. If you look at best 3 or best 5 seasons, the gap is pretty significant in favor of St Louis and Iginla. If you look at best consecutive 5 seasons, the gap is smaller. If you look at best 10 seasons, there is no gap.

I never claimed St Louis and Iginla were leaps and bounds better offensively than Alfreddsson and Hossa, though I do think they are a step up.

Edit: remember, we are talking about offense only here


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02-09-2012, 05:15 PM
  #168
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you guys makes me want to go on the crown with all this number 2 talk


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02-09-2012, 05:18 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
He out-goaled Firsov domestically. We have no records of assists in the Soviet league. Internationally, Firsov showed himself to be a great playmaker, while Starshinov was a very poor one.

Starshinov is a player who I actually soured on somewhat after drafting him last time - especially after seeing how much Firsov outscored him internationally, where assists are actually recorded. His playmaking is terrible for a center (I think it's probably worse than Bowie or Barry, neither of whom should be the primary playmaker on an ATD line). He's definitely a great guy in front of the net, but he needs linemates who can get him the puck when he's in front of the net.
He's also got LW ability, don't forget. And I have Larionov. Depending on how things shake down, I may pair the two at ES- never mind on the powerplay.

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02-09-2012, 05:19 PM
  #170
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Jiri Holecek bio:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...7&postcount=77

It's basically the same as last year, but I found his complete Golden Hockey Stick voting results.

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02-09-2012, 05:25 PM
  #171
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He's also got LW ability, don't forget. And I have Larionov. Depending on how things shake down, I may pair the two at ES- never mind on the powerplay.
Eh... I tried to sell people on Starshinov's LW ability last time and nobody seemed to buy it. Did you find anything I didn't? I agree that if you can convert him to LW and he's credible there, he looks a lot better.

As far as I know, the information on him playing left wing is that he appeared to be a 1st Team Soviet League LW once - but I don't know if we're entirely sure they were seperated by position.

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02-09-2012, 05:41 PM
  #172
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Great, great discussion on Hossa, St-Louis, Iginla and Alfredsson. I was overrating the offensive difference between the four of them. I'll still take them in the order they got selected, but the difference is less than I first thought off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
He's also got LW ability, don't forget. And I have Larionov. Depending on how things shake down, I may pair the two at ES- never mind on the powerplay.
Anatoli Firsov is also eligibable to play centre, although I wouldn't see the reason to do it, with the premium on LW.

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Eagle Belfour has 36 minutes left of his clock.
And I'm here. Thought I had traded the pick. I'll select soon.

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02-09-2012, 05:43 PM
  #173
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Great, great discussion on Hossa, St-Louis, Iginla and Alfredsson. I was overrating the offensive difference between the four of them. I'll still take them in the order they got selected, but the difference is less than I first thought off.



Anatoli Firsov is also eligibable to play centre, although I wouldn't see the reason to do it, with the premium on LW.



And I'm here. Thought I had traded the pick. I'll select soon.
Hey, Firsov's on my team. Bugg doesn't have ALL the Russians, y'know.

I'm tempted to line him up with Malkin and Bure, but I don't think it'll be as effective as the setup I currently have.

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02-09-2012, 05:49 PM
  #174
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i posted this in the dirt thread, but i decided to post it here, b/c it is interesting and the imagery is great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by New York Times: 3-16-1913
Joe Malone was lightning fast. He glided over the ice phantomlike in the heavy mist. His ghost-like figure seemed to be in front of every Wanderers skater and never did he fail to steal the rubber from an opponent. His hockey stick was like a thing alive, for it poked its way between skates and under falling players in a way which brought Malone the puck every time. He wiggled his way through the roughest scrimmages and always brought up in front of the Wanderers' net. Then he ripped the puck in. Sometimes, it didn't go in and hit Cadotte so hard in the chest that it almost knocked him down.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...DB405B838DF1D3




does anyone know about the relationship between sprague cleghorn and eddie shore? i have seen some speculation about it b/c their styles of player were similar and they played together in boston. there does not seem to be much in "eddie shore and that old time hockey," but i cannot read all of it on google books.

i posted in the dishing the dirt thread some of a column by dink carroll in which cleghorn claimed credit for helping develop shore's rushing style. cleghorn, who was defensive coach of boston late in his career, said he set up chairs on the ice and had shore carry the puck between them.

shore also mentioned the chairs at some point, but, as far as i know, did not mention cleghorn. shore also said he had movies made of himself playing hockey, studied them and used them to improve his game, which would probably make him very innovative in the use of film. i don't know when film came into use, but shore retired in '40.

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02-09-2012, 05:50 PM
  #175
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Hey, Firsov's on my team. Bugg doesn't have ALL the Russians, y'know.

I'm tempted to line him up with Malkin and Bure, but I don't think it'll be as effective as the setup I currently have.
I was not insinuating that he had him, but if we're comparing both Firsov and Starshinov, and that Starshinov versatily is a plus for him, we need to be fair and give Firsov credit for his versatility too.

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