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02-09-2012, 11:09 PM
  #1
LyricalLyricist
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Does this mentality annoy anyone else?

Specifically talking about Plekanec here, but it applies to other scenarios as well. When people say "Oh Eller is developing well, Plekanec is now expendable" "Desharnais made more points, Plekanec can be moved" then we project these lines with Eller and DD in top 2 center positions.

EVEN if we assume Eller and DD become legit, consistent 2nd line centers, what's the obsession with riding ourselves of Plekanec or any other player in a similar circumstance?

This isn't Halak vs Price where only 1 will play 60 games. This is forwards, d-men...Where many can play.

Why do we want to tear down depth as soon as we get it? It's annoying as hell.

Granted, if we're talking about an upgrade and you gotta give to get, I understand, but a lot of times I read garbage about trading Plekanec for futures. Really? Why? I find it borderline moronic.

Again, it applies to many situations, but in this particular situation, a top two-way center is great. Why do we even discuss trading Plek for a non-upgrade just because Eller and DD may become good consistent players.

Pittsburg has Crosby Malkin and Staal. Why is it forbidden for us to have a decent 3 way combo?

Just a pet peeve I guess. Anyone else annoyed by this?

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02-09-2012, 11:37 PM
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Stradale
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Actually, Eller and DD are locks for the top 3 center. Its Leblanc that will eventually take Plekanec's spot.

5M$ for a 3rd line center who disappears in important game. His defensive game is also overrated, look at his +/-!! And he plays like a girl... HE SAID ITTTT!!

He's definitely not a guy that you can win a Stanley cup with.



Edit: Ok ok, sorry guys. I forgot this

It was just a compilation of the stupid stuffs I saw on this board... and on l'antichambre (bergy).


Last edited by Stradale: 02-10-2012 at 12:21 AM.
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Old
02-09-2012, 11:39 PM
  #3
uiCk
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i like the idea of having all 3, but i think eller is probably safest, as in i think managment knows eller's value, trade wise, is high enough. But i only see one going if return, at center is improved, long term and bonus would be size and strength. i don't see it happening, all three are playing well and pretty much improving development. i can also see them being such strong balanced top 9 centers that it would balance out the "star" center need. Could. until there is a better option, i think it's good plan to keep them all.

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02-09-2012, 11:45 PM
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I think it has less to do with Eller and DD performing as it has to do with our current position in the standings where we are/were/are/were in reach of a potential star down the middle, on top of the player upgrade that we would get in return (the only condition in which I would entertain moving him).

It's probably unrealistic and overtly optimistic for me to expect to, let's say, ship Pleka+ for Ryan/Nash, land Grigorenko and ice that kind of combination of talent next year but our continuous spiral down the standings have certainly had me dreaming.

In no way Pleka should be deemed expendable but given our current position, treating him as a valuable asset to possibly put into play shouldn't be discounted so easily.

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02-09-2012, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
Actually, Eller and DD are locks for the top 3 center. Its Leblanc that will eventually take Plekanec's spot.

5M$ for a 3rd line center who disappears in important game in important game. His defensive game is also overrated, look at his +/-!! And he plays like a girl... HE SAID ITTTT!!

He's definitely not a guy that you can win a Stanley cup with.
Not sure if serious

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02-09-2012, 11:51 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
Actually, Eller and DD are locks for the top 3 center. Its Leblanc that will eventually take Plekanec's spot.

5M$ for a 3rd line center who disappears in important game in important game. His defensive game is also overrated, look at his +/-!! And he plays like a girl... HE SAID ITTTT!!

He's definitely not a guy that you can win a Stanley cup with.
Your post makes me feel sorry for you. Yes, you can win with him if you have a good team. */- is the most overrated statistic because it's heavily influenced by a player's teammates as well as his degree of responsibility. In the Pittsburgh game he was a -2 but he held Malkin to 1 assist, spearheaded the penalty kill, and scored the winning SO goal. Better analysts than you appreciate him and say so openly but IYO they're wrong.

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Old
02-09-2012, 11:52 PM
  #7
Pleky Roks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Specifically talking about Plekanec here, but it applies to other scenarios as well. When people say "Oh Eller is developing well, Plekanec is now expendable" "Desharnais made more points, Plekanec can be moved" then we project these lines with Eller and DD in top 2 center positions.

EVEN if we assume Eller and DD become legit, consistent 2nd line centers, what's the obsession with riding ourselves of Plekanec or any other player in a similar circumstance?

This isn't Halak vs Price where only 1 will play 60 games. This is forwards, d-men...Where many can play.

Why do we want to tear down depth as soon as we get it? It's annoying as hell.

Granted, if we're talking about an upgrade and you gotta give to get, I understand, but a lot of times I read garbage about trading Plekanec for futures. Really? Why? I find it borderline moronic.

Again, it applies to many situations, but in this particular situation, a top two-way center is great. Why do we even discuss trading Plek for a non-upgrade just because Eller and DD may become good consistent players.

Pittsburg has Crosby Malkin and Staal. Why is it forbidden for us to have a decent 3 way combo?

Just a pet peeve I guess. Anyone else annoyed by this?

I agree!! I hate hearing idiotic fans say trade this person and trade that person because someone is having a lackluster season.

Plekanec is playing a defensive role this year, he's playing against the top lines of other teams and it makes him suffer offensively. Its the same thing with Subban. He's not having the offensive season he did last year because he's playing a much more important role this year....a defensive shutdown role.

The only way it makes any sense at all for the Habs to trade Plekanec is if he is packaged with another player and a draft pick to land a big, #1 centerman like Getzlaf or Thornton or Kopitar etc.

Having Pleks, Eller and DD all playing certain roles, learning how to play different roles and all contributing as a team is great. Since we don't have anybody thats a bonafide #1 center....we need all our centermen to chips in by playing many different ways.....thats just the way it is.

The only centerman we could afford to get rid of is Scott Gomez and we're basically stuck with him until his cap hit goes down....and even Gomez serves a purpose on the team....like it or not.

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02-09-2012, 11:57 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
Actually, Eller and DD are locks for the top 3 center. Its Leblanc that will eventually take Plekanec's spot.

5M$ for a 3rd line center who disappears in important game in important game. His defensive game is also overrated, look at his +/-!! And he plays like a girl... HE SAID ITTTT!!

He's definitely not a guy that you can win a Stanley cup with.



There is just so much wrong with this post....I don't know where to start so I'm not even going to bother!!

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02-10-2012, 12:01 AM
  #9
holyhabs87
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Ya it is annoying.

It was the same with PK when idiots like Gagnon said we should trade PK to get a 1C because we have a guy like Beaulieu coming up.

It's completely stupid.

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02-10-2012, 12:02 AM
  #10
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Yes, it is annoying when most of the board call for an action, like fire JM, and when it doesn't work, it is Gauthier's fault. So the new whipping boy is Gauthier.

It is annoying when so many call for half the team to be traded, and then they will complain we have no leadership, or experienced players, or it was a bad trade.

Sometimes the level of intelligence on the board is low. So I leave for awhile.

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02-10-2012, 12:08 AM
  #11
EllertoKostitsynGoal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Your post makes me feel sorry for you. Yes, you can win with him if you have a good team. */- is the most overrated statistic because it's heavily influenced by a player's teammates as well as his degree of responsibility. In the Pittsburgh game he was a -2 but he held Malkin to 1 assist, spearheaded the penalty kill, and scored the winning SO goal. Better analysts than you appreciate him and say so openly but IYO they're wrong.
I think that's saracastic.

The Leblanc will take Plek's spot gives it away. Hell, Leblanc is probably a lock to be a winger in the NHL.

The kind of game Plekanec plays will always make alot of his contributions go under the radar. It's not only about being a great defensive player, it's the kind of minutes he plays that don't always get taken into account. Defensive play isn't something that can be rated by looking at a bunch of stats (usually the easiest to find) like faceoff %, +- and takeaways (Hear me Selke voter! Players playing 2nd line opp. shouldn't get that trophy! )

Plekanec isn't someone I'd want to let go. I'd want some ridiculous overpayment for him. And he ain't the kind of player GMs overpay for so we can forget about that. Also, having a guy like him is very important to the devellopment of DD and Eller. They'd get killed playing those minutes, Plek's ability to "carry" other wingers during tough missions actually helps the other lines in a huge way. Not having vets to do those things in front of young players is how teams who have been rebuilding for 5+ years sees alot of them busts and ends up never getting out of it.

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02-10-2012, 12:17 AM
  #12
Miller Time
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Plekanec is a valuable asset... to deny that is a bit silly.

but it is precisely that value that does lend credence to the argument that he's potentially a good target to use as trade bait.

having Eller and DD, neither of which likely to have similar value in a trade to Plekanec, so it does leave room to suggest that, with the right kind of return, moving Pleks could make some sense.

Pleks-DD-Eller isn't a "top-of-the-league" type trio up front, so if in moving one we could add a guy that makes the group better, it would have to be considered I suppose.

for me, he's a guy that should definitely be considered part of the solution.

I think, despite how good DD has been this year and how valuable he is given his cap/production, of the three he's the one I'd soonest see replaced.

not saying I have the trade/signing route to make it happen, but if you swap DD with an elite talent @1 centre, all of a sudden a XXX- Pleks-Eller would give us a seriously competitive top-3 C group...

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02-10-2012, 12:25 AM
  #13
groovejuice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
Actually, Eller and DD are locks for the top 3 center. Its Leblanc that will eventually take Plekanec's spot.

5M$ for a 3rd line center who disappears in important game. His defensive game is also overrated, look at his +/-!! And he plays like a girl... HE SAID ITTTT!!

He's definitely not a guy that you can win a Stanley cup with.



Edit: Ok ok, sorry guys. I forgot this

It was just a compilation of the stupid stuffs I saw on this board... and on l'antichambre (bergy).
Hehe. Don't ever forget your sarcasm icon. I need my chilloutine now! :-)

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02-10-2012, 12:37 AM
  #14
Kimota
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I think most people figure that we need that big center and in doing so it would make Plek expendable. Nobody is saying he doesn't have value NOW.

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02-10-2012, 12:37 AM
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EllertoKostitsynGoal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Plekanec is a valuable asset... to deny that is a bit silly.

but it is precisely that value that does lend credence to the argument that he's potentially a good target to use as trade bait.

having Eller and DD, neither of which likely to have similar value in a trade to Plekanec, so it does leave room to suggest that, with the right kind of return, moving Pleks could make some sense.

Pleks-DD-Eller isn't a "top-of-the-league" type trio up front, so if in moving one we could add a guy that makes the group better, it would have to be considered I suppose.

for me, he's a guy that should definitely be considered part of the solution.

I think, despite how good DD has been this year and how valuable he is given his cap/production, of the three he's the one I'd soonest see replaced.

not saying I have the trade/signing route to make it happen, but if you swap DD with an elite talent @1 centre, all of a sudden a XXX- Pleks-Eller would give us a seriously competitive top-3 C group...
Those trade good player + for elite player only works in theory tough. I mean the team trading the elite player is probably trading him because they are rebuilding in a huge way (or else they wouldn't trade him) so they won't want a Plekanec (30 year old and probably not DD either since he's like 25 and unproven), they will want elite prospects and high picks and we don't have a ton of those. Except if the + is so huge that they don't mind doing a deal around a Plekanec but then if that + is so huge is it worth giving up that plus? Does giving up that plus actually helps longterm?

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02-10-2012, 12:45 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Specifically talking about Plekanec here, but it applies to other scenarios as well. When people say "Oh Eller is developing well, Plekanec is now expendable" "Desharnais made more points, Plekanec can be moved" then we project these lines with Eller and DD in top 2 center positions.

EVEN if we assume Eller and DD become legit, consistent 2nd line centers, what's the obsession with riding ourselves of Plekanec or any other player in a similar circumstance?

This isn't Halak vs Price where only 1 will play 60 games. This is forwards, d-men...Where many can play.

Why do we want to tear down depth as soon as we get it? It's annoying as hell.

Granted, if we're talking about an upgrade and you gotta give to get, I understand, but a lot of times I read garbage about trading Plekanec for futures. Really? Why? I find it borderline moronic.

Again, it applies to many situations, but in this particular situation, a top two-way center is great. Why do we even discuss trading Plek for a non-upgrade just because Eller and DD may become good consistent players.

Pittsburg has Crosby Malkin and Staal. Why is it forbidden for us to have a decent 3 way combo?

Just a pet peeve I guess. Anyone else annoyed by this?
Imo, Plekanec is the center i'd like to trade (eventually), but only if a better overall center comes back (one that is better than both Desharnais and Eller as well) OR we draft a center with way more upside than the three aforementioned centers, and then when he's ready we trade Plekanec for a veteran defensive D presence. If neither of those scenarios transpire, then i see no point in trading Plekanec.

Simply put, I just don't see us winning the cup down the road with Plekanec as our no.1. I also find it hard to justify trading Eller or Desharnais, as they seem to fit so perfectly the 2nd and 3rd line center role. So there, that's the argument.

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02-10-2012, 12:50 AM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markowicz View Post
Imo, Plekanec is the center i'd like to trade (eventually), but only if a better overall center comes back (one that is better than both Desharnais and Eller as well) OR we draft a center with way more upside than the three aforementioned centers, and then when he's ready we trade Plekanec for a veteran defensive D presence. If neither of those scenarios transpire, then i see no point in trading Plekanec.

Simply put, I just don't see us winning the cup down the road with Plekanec as our no.1. I also find it hard to justify trading Eller or Desharnais, as they seem to fit so perfectly the 2nd and 3rd line center role. So there, that's the argument.
IMO Plekanec is a superior 2nd C even with Deshanais breaking out. You don't want to waste a high end offensive talent on the PK and defensive assignments unless you are seriously stacked up front. Plekanec is one of the best PK forwards in the league and is willing to play huge minutes.

Of course these things are also some of the reasons he would have more value on the trade block, but jack of all trades tend to be undervalued and I just don't see actively shipping Plekanec right now doing any good. If a situation arises he's dealable, but so is most of the team.

A lot depends on where we draft. Even besides the obvious there's a few other centers in this draft with high end potential. If we end up with one of those we might be best of going with what we have and trying to improve on the wings in the short term.

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02-10-2012, 12:53 AM
  #18
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Plekanec is a valuable asset... to deny that is a bit silly.

but it is precisely that value that does lend credence to the argument that he's potentially a good target to use as trade bait.

having Eller and DD, neither of which likely to have similar value in a trade to Plekanec, so it does leave room to suggest that, with the right kind of return, moving Pleks could make some sense.

Pleks-DD-Eller isn't a "top-of-the-league" type trio up front, so if in moving one we could add a guy that makes the group better, it would have to be considered I suppose.

for me, he's a guy that should definitely be considered part of the solution.

I think, despite how good DD has been this year and how valuable he is given his cap/production, of the three he's the one I'd soonest see replaced.

not saying I have the trade/signing route to make it happen, but if you swap DD with an elite talent @1 centre, all of a sudden a XXX- Pleks-Eller would give us a seriously competitive top-3 C group...
The thing with Desharnais I think is that if you don't need him in your top-3 centers then you probably also can use him as a cheap offensive winger somewhere in your top nine. So its not like you need to move him if you can find that elusive upgrade at center.

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02-10-2012, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by EllertoKostitsynGoal View Post
Those trade good player + for elite player only works in theory tough. I mean the team trading the elite player is probably trading him because they are rebuilding in a huge way (or else they wouldn't trade him) so they won't want a Plekanec (30 year old and probably not DD either since he's like 25 and unproven), they will want elite prospects and high picks and we don't have a ton of those. Except if the + is so huge that they don't mind doing a deal around a Plekanec but then if that + is so huge is it worth giving up that plus? Does giving up that plus actually helps longterm?
I agree, you can't count on those good player+ deals, there's just too many variables to deal with. If I'm the Canadiens, I go the long rout, which is keep trying to build through the draft. This summer it's paramount that they draft a center in the 1st round (and not one that they'll want to switch to wing). I really think the draft is the only viable option for the team to find there prototypical 1st line center, simply because they don't quite have the trading pieces in place that other teams have (in the case of a bidding war). And frankly I'm okay with that, I'd rather they take it slow, and do it right.

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02-10-2012, 01:01 AM
  #20
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Originally Posted by EllertoKostitsynGoal View Post
Those trade good player + for elite player only works in theory tough. I mean the team trading the elite player is probably trading him because they are rebuilding in a huge way (or else they wouldn't trade him) so they won't want a Plekanec (30x year old and probably not DD either since he's like 25 and unproven), they will want elite prospects and high picks and we don't have a ton of those. Except if the + is so huge that they don't mind doing a deal around a Plekanec but then if that + is so huge is it worth giving up that plus? Does giving up that plus actually helps longterm?
The problem is that too many people find a top offensive centre much sexier than a top 2 way centre.

Fact is you need both types of players. I would like to remind those who have forgotten that Viktor Tikhinov called Bob Gainey the best player in the world.

This changed the landscape of hockey so much, they were obliged to create the Selke award.

The unstoppable force vs. the immovable object. A matter of philosophy. And IMHO Pleks is overdue for that Selke nomination.

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02-10-2012, 01:02 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
IMO Plekanec is a superior 2nd C even with Deshanais breaking out. You don't want to waste a high end offensive talent on the PK and defensive assignments unless you are seriously stacked up front. Plekanec is one of the best PK forwards in the league and is willing to play huge minutes.

Of course these things are also some of the reasons he would have more value on the trade block, but jack of all trades tend to be undervalued and I just don't see actively shipping Plekanec right now doing any good. If a situation arises he's dealable, but so is most of the team.

A lot depends on where we draft. Even besides the obvious there's a few other centers in this draft with high end potential. If we end up with one of those we might be best of going with what we have and trying to improve on the wings in the short term.
That's pretty much what I'm saying. No point in trading him until the right replacement has arrived, with my preference being a center we drafted (this year i hope). When I say trade Plekanec, I'm definitely not thinking now, I'm thinking when we're way closer to winning a cup.

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02-10-2012, 01:10 AM
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its not that he's expandable, but he's the one that has the most value on our team right now.

if you're moving forward with dd and eller as #1 and #2, you cant play pleky on the 3rd.
He'd be the best 3rd line center in the league but he's not a #3

so if you have your first 2 established, you move pleky to fill other holes.

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02-10-2012, 01:33 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by Kingbobert View Post
its not that he's expandable, but he's the one that has the most value on our team right now.

if you're moving forward with dd and eller as #1 and #2, you cant play pleky on the 3rd.
He'd be the best 3rd line center in the league but he's not a #3

so if you have your first 2 established, you move pleky to fill other holes.
Well unless you're planning on sucking next season DD and Eller as your top two centers isn't wise. Neither has the complete top-six center game yet, with Desharnais being weak on the possession/defense side of the game while Eller has yet to really get to that level on offense. Play them on the same team and one covers the others weaknesses such that you have the 2nd and 3rd spots on the depth chart covered between them.

But Plekanec is the only one that can bring offense and defense simulaneously which is pretty important. That mature two-way game covers up a lot of sins and Montreal can't do without it. Especially since the blueline isn't settled yet.

So you run with the three of them until:
1) Eller and Desharnais develop into the kind 1-2 punch at C that you hope they'll be

2) You find a way to make a significant upgrade at the position (difficult)

3) You develop enough strength on wing and on defense you can ice a great team with a pretty good but not spectacular center line. They've gotten pretty close to that on wing. If Pacioretty continues his metoric rise into an elite winger, Cole remains awesome, Bourque and Gionta have some good years left in the tank, Kostitsyn resigns and Leblanc is as good as he's shown so far in the NHL they've sitting pretty on W. Defense wise depends a lot on Markov, with Subban, Gorges and Emelin good building blocks.
This is probably the most realistic method unless they get their hands on a really good C in the upcoming draft.


Which is another point. Medium to Long term planning depends heavily on 3 pretty big questions:

1. What is the new CBA like?
2. Who is Markov right now and for the future?
3. What did they get with their 1st rounder this summer?

Until those questions have answers detailed planning is pretty useless. It will just get rendered moot by new developments anyway.

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02-10-2012, 01:42 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Kingbobert View Post
its not that he's expandable, but he's the one that has the most value on our team right now.

if you're moving forward with dd and eller as #1 and #2, you cant play pleky on the 3rd.
He'd be the best 3rd line center in the league but he's not a #3

so if you have your first 2 established, you move pleky to fill other holes.
Notice how DD doesn't get defensive matchups against the Malkins and Getzlafs of the league? Notice how Eller can't produce when matched up against the Datsyuks and Backstroms of the league?

They're not number 1 centres. Pleks can at the very least hold his own as a number one.

The problem is that Pleks really does disappear offensively when we've needed him the most. He's done it almost every year and it's disappointing for an otherwise great player to choke it up and get tunnel-vision when he's counted on. That's why people keep suggesting to trade him for a legit number 1, not because he's expendable.

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02-10-2012, 04:54 AM
  #25
onemorecup*
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Specifically talking about Plekanec here, but it applies to other scenarios as well. When people say "Oh Eller is developing well, Plekanec is now expendable" "Desharnais made more points, Plekanec can be moved" then we project these lines with Eller and DD in top 2 center positions.

EVEN if we assume Eller and DD become legit, consistent 2nd line centers, what's the obsession with riding ourselves of Plekanec or any other player in a similar circumstance?

This isn't Halak vs Price where only 1 will play 60 games. This is forwards, d-men...Where many can play.

Why do we want to tear down depth as soon as we get it? It's annoying as hell.

Granted, if we're talking about an upgrade and you gotta give to get, I understand, but a lot of times I read garbage about trading Plekanec for futures. Really? Why? I find it borderline moronic.

Again, it applies to many situations, but in this particular situation, a top two-way center is great. Why do we even discuss trading Plek for a non-upgrade just because Eller and DD may become good consistent players.

Pittsburg has Crosby Malkin and Staal. Why is it forbidden for us to have a decent 3 way combo?

Just a pet peeve I guess. Anyone else annoyed by this?
what logic is this bro ?

Sid , Malkin and Staal might be the best 1-3 punch of all time , and have won a cup

wtf on earth are we going to win with the midget , DD , and Eller as 1-3 ?

go back to any cup team and tell me who ever won with this talent down the middle

how many times have we seen this broken record where Pleks disappears in clutch playoff games ?

budddy its vision and we dont have it moving forward .

this is why we will miss the playoffs this year , we need a fken rebuild and now
DD and Pleks can`t be your 1-2 , period , you cant win

dd on 20 teams minimum wont play in this league so why are we content for mediocrity ? we are losing for f sakes

even as good as Cole has played like I said B4 , what are we a Cole away from ?

total joke how a 34 year old pick up might be our best player this year

Pleks is the one you move while he still has value in this league and you should do well in a deal cause he might be a solid option on good teams as a complimentary center

Eller to do size , wheels , and defensive awareness is a legit possibility as #2

for a player who gets no pp time, plays with crap most nights, he has more goals , a better shot and can easily outscore the midget if given his role .

Leblanc has game folks , he should eventually be our #1 in time .

he wont be your prototypical #1 center but has a solid IQ , and offensive creativity and unless we land a Grigorenko this year or get a better
I WOULD GROOM HIM FOR THE JOB , but clearly in time he has more to offer than pleks or the midget

our problem every year , we put the round hole in the square peg trying to make it work , and it never does with a fit

but for you fans talking about depth , wake up this center tandem we have is
s h i t and it shows by our record


Last edited by onemorecup*: 02-10-2012 at 04:59 AM. Reason: typing error
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