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Does this mentality annoy anyone else?

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Old
02-10-2012, 09:24 AM
  #51
EllertoKostitsynGoal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Well it all depends of the makeup of the team. Do you really want a guy you're paying 5 M$ to center your 3rd line? If your idea of a team is 2 offensive line, 1 defensive one and 1 gritty one, well I wouldn't have a 5 M$ guy centering the defensive one.

Now, reality check. Eller is NOT ready to center an offensive line and chances are HE'S the one who might center that defensive line for years to come. He might never explode to be that great offensive player. So Plekanec is STILL a top 6 player. Now, that's why the makeup of this team needs to be somewhat redone. Putting Moen and Darche on his wings is trying to say that if Plekanec would have 2 big wingers like DD is having, he'd be as succesful offensively. Problem is that it's Moen and Darche who is beside him. So Pleks needs to play with AKost and Bourque. Yet, we have no idea if AKost will stay. And I'm not convince Bourque is a 2nd line player. Not on a GREAT team. A 3rd line formed of Eller, Bourque and somebody else, I would have no problem with to go forward. But we need to be better on that 2nd line. Now, would Gionta fill that spot? Personnaly, I don't believe it's a good match with Pleks. Which for me come the conclusion that Gionta is more expendable than Pleks. Unless we suck it up and form a 3rd line of Eller-Bourque-Gionta. I still believe we are 2 really good wingers on the 2nd line to become a top tier team. And people say Leblanc shouldn't be on the 4th...well yes he should 'cause he is still young. And if you have a Leblanc-White-and a gritty vet player on your 4th, you know that you have a great team.

So yes, at some point, you do need to make a choice. Whethe it's for cap reasons. Whether it's for identity reasons. And I hope we make those decisions.
Personally I think the top 9 model is the way to go. Like I said having all the top 9 hitting 30 ES pts would be my goal for next year.

And I think the reason Plek gets those two for now is because, as much as everyone loves that Pac-DD-Cole line, they make the rest off the lineup weaker. So Plek "carrying" two wingers against first line opposition is the only way to keep that line while still giving Eller linemates.

But I don't really like the idea of numbering lines that much, I much prefer giving them roles.
I posted a lineup that could work in the PGT:

Eller-Plek-Cole

Main tough minutes line, if they work as well as they did at the beginning of the season, this is an awesome line.

Bourque-Gomez-Gio

Secondary matchups line, don't know if Bourque can play on that wing but Gomez with 2 goalscorers is probably not a bad idea. I know Bourque was a great defensive player a while ago (but he has taken a bit of a dive there), he should be able to handle 2nd liner with those 2. I know people hate on Gomez but if he's kept he has to be used in a "hard minutes eating" role since that's one of his main strenght.

Patches-DD-AK

Let them take loose against third lines, this line has also worked well when put together. AK would probably be helped by less pressure that comes with easier minutes, he tends to do pretty well in those situation. (fun fact: according to behind the net (if I'm reading it well ) AK has faced higher level of opposition than anyone on the team this season, including Subban and Gorges ) Also, DD with 2 snipers, can't go wrong there.

Fourth line, we can pencil in White in there, don't know for the rest. I'd like to sign a Malhotra clone tough.

This lineup should have a big advantage at home with the last change and that lineup has the advantage of not getting that much worse on the road since the "exploitation line" doesn't make the rest of the lineup weaker and is quite probably ES 2nd line caliber. Also another big advantage is that with this lineup the "exploitation line" isn't the line that is the main focus by the other teams when we don't have last change. The Plek line would be and they could handle it giving room to the other ones.

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Old
02-10-2012, 09:39 AM
  #52
Habs13
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Plekanec and Desharnais are the same style, same sized player so you move one to bring in a needed element at center. So, if both these guys produce at the same level, bring the same game, do you keep the younger guy making little or the older guy that makes $5M and has decent trade value? IF (Yes, I said if) you can package Plekanec for a Getzlaf type player, do you not do it? New element, bigger at center.


Edit: Actually, the attitude that erks me is people wanting to play centres on wing - especially small ones like Desharnais. The only place he should play is at center with big boys on his wings. Eller at center. Not at wing. He is nonexistant when he was put on wing. Gomez... anywhere as long as it's Hamilton. Let guys play their natural position and be done with it.

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02-10-2012, 09:47 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
Is anyone saying he's expendable except morons?

If so, why do you care?
I think many here are making generalisation of what most "trade Plek" posters are saying.

I personnaly never said he was "expendable" because of DD and Eller. Personnaly, what I'm saying is the following:

1- Eller is developping nicely in a great third line - checking line, PK specialist, with occasionnal offense burst, at a fraction of Plekanec's price.

2- DD is also developping (and allready is) a pretty good second line center.

3- I think Habs are going nowhere with these 2 + Plekanec as I think the team as way too many holes before being a real contender.

4- Given the first 3 points and given that Plekanec has the more value on the trade market, I say trade him for valuable younger assets that could fix more holes in the close future that he is fixing by himself (young players, draft picks, etc.), especially that big elusive first line centerman that the Habs are needing for such a long time.

I think those arguments are at least as good as the ones stating to keep Plekanec. It is just a matter of evaluating the team's needs.

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Old
02-10-2012, 09:47 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs13 View Post
Plekanec and Desharnais are the same style, same sized player so you move one to bring in a needed element at center. So, if both these guys produce at the same level, bring the same game, do you keep the younger guy making little or the older guy that makes $5M and has decent trade value? IF (Yes, I said if) you can package Plekanec for a Getzlaf type player, do you not do it? New element, bigger at center.


Edit: Actually, the attitude that erks me is people wanting to play centres on wing - especially small ones like Desharnais. The only place he should play is at center with big boys on his wings. Eller at center. Not at wing. He is nonexistant when he was put on wing. Gomez... anywhere as long as it's Hamilton. Let guys play their natural position and be done with it.
It all makes sense except very few of those guys are available and they usually have contract "issues". Would you trade Plekanec for 1 year of Getzlaf? ...or Staal at 8.25 mil cap hit?

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02-10-2012, 09:48 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by couris View Post
So you are comparing Malkin Crosby Staal to Eller DD and Plekachu.......................................... ..................

Plekanec is the only center of this team that is allergic to the center of the ice(forget gomes)....and also manage to come second in every 1v1 battles at ES. Im not the first one to say he plays like a good little girl, he said it.

17 years and couting of mediocrity.
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Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
Actually, Eller and DD are locks for the top 3 center. Its Leblanc that will eventually take Plekanec's spot.

5M$ for a 3rd line center who disappears in important game. His defensive game is also overrated, look at his +/-!! And he plays like a girl... HE SAID ITTTT!!

He's definitely not a guy that you can win a Stanley cup with.



Edit: Ok ok, sorry guys. I forgot this

It was just a compilation of the stupid stuffs I saw on this board... and on l'antichambre (bergy).
Well played.

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02-10-2012, 09:50 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs13 View Post
Plekanec and Desharnais are the same style, same sized player so you move one to bring in a needed element at center. So, if both these guys produce at the same level, bring the same game, do you keep the younger guy making little or the older guy that makes $5M and has decent trade value? IF (Yes, I said if) you can package Plekanec for a Getzlaf type player, do you not do it? New element, bigger at center.


Edit: Actually, the attitude that erks me is people wanting to play centres on wing - especially small ones like Desharnais. The only place he should play is at center with big boys on his wings. Eller at center. Not at wing. He is nonexistant when he was put on wing. Gomez... anywhere as long as it's Hamilton. Let guys play their natural position and be done with it.
Except they aren't the same type of players at all. Except for both being small they are as oppsosite as two playmaking centers can be. One is a two-way tough minutes center who creates alot on the rush while the other one is a one-way softer minutes player who's more of a patient pure playmaker.

And I don't think DD playing wing is a bad idea, logic would say if you have to move a center on the wing, you put the one-way guy there since with way teams play these days, your center is almost a 3rd defenceman out there.

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02-10-2012, 09:51 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by juve View Post
If you can get a package similar to what the Flyers got for Carter and Richards, why not consider it?
If he's as bad as what people that want to trade him make him out to be why on earth would he return that much?

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02-10-2012, 09:56 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
It all makes sense except very few of those guys are available and they usually have contract "issues". Would you trade Plekanec for 1 year of Getzlaf? ...or Staal at 8.25 mil cap hit?
Yeah, that's the problem! IF you can get Getzlaf locked up, I'd do it in a heartbeart and if I can subtract Gomez AND Plekanec to fit Staal, I'd at least think it through! (Wait... Eric? Jordan?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by EllertoKostitsynGoal
Except they aren't the same type of players at all. Except for both being small they are as oppsosite as two playmaking centers can be. One is a two-way tough minutes center who creates alot on the rush while the other one is a one-way softer minutes player who's more of a patient pure playmaker.

And I don't think DD playing wing is a bad idea, logic would say if you have to move a center on the wing, you put the one-way guy there since with way teams play these days, your center is almost a 3rd defenceman out there.
I think Desharnais would get slaughtered along the boards playing wing on a nightly basis, and besides, I like the size we are putting on the wing now with guys like Cole and Bourque. I hope that trend continues.

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02-10-2012, 09:57 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Habs13 View Post
Yeah, that's the problem! IF you can get Getzlaf locked up, I'd do it in a heartbeart and if I can subtract Gomez AND Plekanec to fit Staal, I'd at least think it through! (Wait... Eric? Jordan?)



I think Desharnais would get slaughtered along the boards playing wing on a nightly basis, and besides, I like the size we are putting on the wing now with guys like Cole and Bourque. I hope that trend continues.
Eric Staal. Jordan is pretty good, but another #2.

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02-10-2012, 10:00 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
If he's as bad as what people that want to trade him make him out to be why on earth would he return that much?
I don't think any of them said he was that bad, I think their point was he is the most Valuable asset we have (outside of the young 3 - Price, Subban, Pacioretty)

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02-10-2012, 10:09 AM
  #61
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I have nothing against upgrading and clearly stated that. I have issue with "trade plek because dd and Eller are ready". I have an issue with "if we draft grigo we don't need plek" as if any guy we pick is a sure bet. I repeat, unless there's an upgrade you don't trade him. Some would trade him for prospects just because we've got Eller and dd. it's moronic. Besides, dd, plek and Eller have all played wing at a point of their careers. You know they can slot over right? Versatility is a good thing so I don't see why we should play with fire when we ONLY have 3 top 9 centers in our entire system! I'd say we even need another guy who can play wing and occasional center in case of injuries.

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02-10-2012, 10:18 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs13 View Post
Yeah, that's the problem! IF you can get Getzlaf locked up, I'd do it in a heartbeart and if I can subtract Gomez AND Plekanec to fit Staal, I'd at least think it through! (Wait... Eric? Jordan?)



I think Desharnais would get slaughtered along the boards playing wing on a nightly basis, and besides, I like the size we are putting on the wing now with guys like Cole and Bourque. I hope that trend continues.
DD is actually pretty good along the boards. Him being bad there is a myth.

And that might be weird but if I had to choose, I might prefer getting Jordan Staal than Eric Staal (But we won't get either anyway). Would cost less and I find Jordan to be pretty underrated. 35-40 ES pts guy with the linemates he get all while getting on average the hardest minutes of any F on his team and he's pretty young still. He's never getting an 100 pts season like his brother but it's not like his brother himself will ever touch those totals again. The injuries might be risky though, that's like 2 seasons in row he had to be out for a while, but I don't know the nature of his injuries.

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02-10-2012, 10:57 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
Actually, Eller and DD are locks for the top 3 center. Its Leblanc that will eventually take Plekanec's spot.

5M$ for a 3rd line center who disappears in important game. His defensive game is also overrated, look at his +/-!! And he plays like a girl... HE SAID ITTTT!!

He's definitely not a guy that you can win a Stanley cup with.



Edit: Ok ok, sorry guys. I forgot this

It was just a compilation of the stupid stuffs I saw on this board... and on l'antichambre (bergy).
Stupidest thing I've ever heard on this forum to date. I don't understand how you think his defensive game is weak, he is easily a top 10 defensive center in the league, along with the best like Datsyuk. For his small size he is THE most intense player on our team, and does a much better job in he corners than Desharnais (Leblanc and Eller excel here as well). His passing is also underrated ever since Desharnais broke out as well. He also faster than both Eller and Desharnais, and has a better shot that both (Desharnais can't raise the puck and Eller couldn't hit a soccer net).

Most importantly like many others have said already in other threads, he is put in defensive situations against the top lines in the NHL because he can handle them, unlike the other 2. Desharnais is put in the offensive ones, and Eller is all-around. He is also continually stuck with the worst forwards on our team, and has been our best forward as of late (along with Patches).

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02-10-2012, 11:10 AM
  #64
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Actual proven NHL ability is IMHO grossly underevaluated on this board, and the risk involved with trading for "upside" is never considered or even mentioned.

If the Habs traded Plekanec, they'd be very unlikely to get a player who'd ever be as good. It might happen but the odds are much better than it wouldn't. After all, if you had a guy who was surefire going to be better than X in 3-4 years, why the hell would you trade him for X?

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02-10-2012, 11:12 AM
  #65
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I believe every players can be traded.....at any time. Its all about what you get in return!

That said, I also believe Plek is not as good as 2 years ago and not as bad as this year. At the end of the day, he is overpaid....which makes him expendable. I like Plek, but at 5M cap hit and given we have other capable Centers, we can trade him (if we get good value) and not hurt too badly......

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02-10-2012, 11:14 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Specifically talking about Plekanec here, but it applies to other scenarios as well. When people say "Oh Eller is developing well, Plekanec is now expendable" "Desharnais made more points, Plekanec can be moved" then we project these lines with Eller and DD in top 2 center positions.

EVEN if we assume Eller and DD become legit, consistent 2nd line centers, what's the obsession with riding ourselves of Plekanec or any other player in a similar circumstance?

This isn't Halak vs Price where only 1 will play 60 games. This is forwards, d-men...Where many can play.

Why do we want to tear down depth as soon as we get it? It's annoying as hell.

Granted, if we're talking about an upgrade and you gotta give to get, I understand, but a lot of times I read garbage about trading Plekanec for futures. Really? Why? I find it borderline moronic.

Again, it applies to many situations, but in this particular situation, a top two-way center is great. Why do we even discuss trading Plek for a non-upgrade just because Eller and DD may become good consistent players.

Pittsburg has Crosby Malkin and Staal. Why is it forbidden for us to have a decent 3 way combo?

Just a pet peeve I guess. Anyone else annoyed by this?
100% with you. I want to slap people that mention trading Plekanec for picks and futures. ***** please, he's a consistent 20 goals, 60 points, two-way forward, locked up at 5M (which with the increasing cap is great value). He's struggling in a season where the team as a whole is looking at a bottom 5 finish.

The only knock on him that I can legitimately accept is that he doesn't show up for big playoff games, but even when he doesn't put up points, he's shutting down other teams best forwards.

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02-10-2012, 11:20 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Sargent Pepper View Post
Naaaahhh, the moron is the one calling others names on the basis that they do not share his opinion.....that is who the moron is.....

Your ok, even if you do not share the moron's opinion.
You're right, and I didn't mean to come off as personally insulting anyone. I just was responding to the guy who said "except morons", so I meant to suggest MANY feel this way, thus there are a lot of 'morons'.

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Originally Posted by holyhabs87 View Post
Ya it is annoying.

It was the same with PK when idiots like Gagnon said we should trade PK to get a 1C because we have a guy like Beaulieu coming up.

It's completely stupid.
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Actual proven NHL ability is IMHO grossly underevaluated on this board, and the risk involved with trading for "upside" is never considered or even mentioned.

If the Habs traded Plekanec, they'd be very unlikely to get a player who'd ever be as good. It might happen but the odds are much better than it wouldn't. After all, if you had a guy who was surefire going to be better than X in 3-4 years, why the hell would you trade him for X?
You both hit the nail on the head. We overvalue the unproven relative to the proven. I suppose it comes with the territory, being Hockeys future boards and all, but there's many things that just don't make sense IMO. Like, some would trade Subban for a top 5 pick. If you look back the last 10 years, some top 5 players in the draft were busts or arent worth subban but the pick itself, is worth it?

As a fans of hockey we sometimes treat it like a brand new car. It's worth a fortune, you buy it and then as soon as you get it off the lot, it's value is cut. Our picks are great until we draft someone with them, suddenly, it's mere years until we consider the notion of packaging that player for the 'next big thing', akin to trading in your car or giving it back after the lease has ended.

That was my point in this threads, perhaps not clearly stated but Plekanec is a mere example, he's an excellent player. Teams loaded with talent and franchise players like chicago would gladly take a plekanec on 2nd line, but we, not with toews, kane, kossa, keith but rather with eller, DD, subban...we can use him as trade bait. As I said, upgrades are fine, but the thought of trading Plekanec for a package rather than Plek being part of one to attain a star player makes me cringe. It will set us back big time.

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02-10-2012, 01:52 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
You're right, and I didn't mean to come off as personally insulting anyone. I just was responding to the guy who said "except morons", so I meant to suggest MANY feel this way, thus there are a lot of 'morons'.
Well, we can certainly disagree without having to resort to insults (you did not insult anyone, the poster you were replying to did), which was my point. I believe that Plek can be a good trade bait and you may disagree but if everyone agreed on everything, what would be the point of a site like this?

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02-10-2012, 01:59 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Jack Bourdain View Post
100% with you. I want to slap people that mention trading Plekanec for picks and futures. ***** please, he's a consistent 20 goals, 60 points, two-way forward, locked up at 5M (which with the increasing cap is great value). He's struggling in a season where the team as a whole is looking at a bottom 5 finish.

The only knock on him that I can legitimately accept is that he doesn't show up for big playoff games, but even when he doesn't put up points, he's shutting down other teams best forwards.

I think we can all, or at least for the most part, agree that Pleks is a very valuable player for us, one not easily replaced...

but that doesn't preclude entertaining the notion that his greatest value to the team may ultimately reside in being traded. All comes down to what kind of trade offer was on the table.


Probably safe to say that no team would offer us enough to make it worth our while, and that's fine b/c keeping him as part of the core to build around is a positive thing, but no need to go over the top in either direction (too valuable to trade/trade for any mix of picks-futures)

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02-10-2012, 02:04 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by gillyguzzler View Post
You undervalue DD way too much. I admit that I too thought DD might be better suited for the wing when the season started but that line is GOLD and DD is a big part of it. Who would have thought that he might get 60 points this year? He's cheap and everyone wants to play with him. He's earned his spot between Cole and MaxPac and this line will only get better.

I like Eller too but, because he's not a very good passer (shoot first type of C), he would probably be more effective on the wing than DD. I don't want Eller to be centering the 4th line next year if they do get another centerman.
The problem with DD isn't his skill it's his size. That's why I'm shifting him to the wing. It gives us an extra center option.

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02-10-2012, 02:04 PM
  #71
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I've been saying this for a while now, what we need is a #1 centerman and keep Plekanec as our 2nd liner. We would probably have the best center depth in the league after Pittsburgh. I'd trade 1 of Eller or DD way before trading away Pleks

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02-10-2012, 02:07 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
Actually, Eller and DD are locks for the top 3 center. Its Leblanc that will eventually take Plekanec's spot.

5M$ for a 3rd line center who disappears in important game. His defensive game is also overrated, look at his +/-!! And he plays like a girl... HE SAID ITTTT!!

He's definitely not a guy that you can win a Stanley cup with.



Edit: Ok ok, sorry guys. I forgot this

It was just a compilation of the stupid stuffs I saw on this board... and on l'antichambre (bergy).
We are too smal at center and its been our downfall for a long time. We can only afford one small center. DD is a better #2 center then Plekanec, then Plek is expendable

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02-10-2012, 02:11 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
We are too smal at center and its been our downfall for a long time. We can only afford one small center. DD is a better #2 center then Plekanec, then Plek is expendable
Pleks never had someone in front of him playing the other teams top lines and all. I love DD but Plekanec is a much more complete and better hockey player

and you go on to say were too small, well DD is smallest of the gang

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02-10-2012, 02:16 PM
  #74
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We need to get bigger at center so we need to keep DD.

DD is a better center than Plekanec.

The mind boggles.

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02-10-2012, 02:17 PM
  #75
Habs 4 Life
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
We need to get bigger at center so we need to keep DD.

DD is a better center than Plekanec.

The mind boggles.
ya but then again, looking at the poster does it really surprise you?

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