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Marc-Andre Bourdon vs Erik Gustafsson

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Old
02-09-2012, 08:37 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turkinaa View Post
If both of them could be mashed together (Gustadon or Bourafsson) we might have a complete player, but at this time they are both too incomplete (they're both rookies and they need playing time to mature).

I remember meeting MAB during the rookie camp after he was drafted and was injured, which made me wonder what his ranking was pre-draft (to see if he fell during the draft) and found this thread:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=526804
My favorite part of that thread...

Quote:
This guy could be a home run pick. If he's paired with a guy like Parent who will cover for him, we could have a hell of a pairing here.
Oh how things change...

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02-09-2012, 09:25 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by columbiaNW View Post
Is this a serious question? I ask genuinely, because I don't know if you 'really' follow the Flyers. As an aside, your emotional post is a little unnecessary. But I will explain how Gustafsson is the single most overrated prospect you guys have, while MAB is not...

Coming into this season, MAB was an afterthought in this organization. He was likely going to go the way of Kevin Marshall and get traded for an expiring AHL deal. He was knocked out in a fight last year, and finished the year in the ECHL. Suffice it to say, he was NOT in the Flyers long term plans.

Conversely, Erik Gustafsson came into this season with the hype of "being the next Timonen", which is not messageboard myth. Erik Gustafsson himself told the media that Holmgren and Don Luce told him SPECIFICALLY they envisioned him their next Timonen. All we read all summer and coming into the year was how "Gus" had top pairing talent, and all other cliche-isms that get thrown around. Since coming back from the wrist injury, Gustafsson looks like a scared little boy playing the game amongst men. He shies away from contact and gets rammed at ever opportunity. Forwards love him on the ice because they know they are getting the puck back.

Gustafsson was just benched for Lilja last week, but Andreas Lilja sucks at life so badly that the coaches had to get Gustafsson back in.

Going back to MAB, he took the most of an opportunity he was given, which was essentially he last shot at playing pro hockey. He changed his diet, practice habits and dedication to the game, and he is playing a bigger role for your team than ever expected. I call that underdog.

I know you like to throw around stats, so I want you to break Gustafsson's stats into two parts, pre-injury and post. Pre, he played 5 games. His stats were grossly padded by the blowout game v CBJ where he played over 20 minutes. Since coming back from injury he has not played as many minutes NOR as many shifts as MAB. I will post the splits later today, to show how wrong you are here.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter to me who you prefer, I was providing an outsider's perspective. Your emotional post was a little strange, if not misplaced. I will tell you this, opposing teams love seeing "Gus" on the ice because they know a turnover is about to happen. Brandon Prust told a NY reporter that MAB was a one of the toughest young kids in the league, and I was told he said similar in the HBO series. Prust has no reason to say anything like that if it isn't true.
He's played all of 9 NHL games since coming back from his wrist injury. I get what your saying but I doubt you'll find a person on here who actually thinks Gus is gonna be the next Kimmo but give him a little more time to get back on track before you bash him. Just take it down a notch is all I'm saying you can't make your point without being so condescending.

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02-09-2012, 09:36 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
He's played all of 9 NHL games since coming back from his wrist injury. I get what your saying but I doubt you'll find a person on here who actually thinks Gus is gonna be the next Kimmo but give him a little more time to get back on track before you bash him. Just take it down a notch is all I'm saying you can't make your point without being so condescending.
he's bang on with this post though

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02-09-2012, 09:41 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
My favorite part of that thread...



Oh how things change...
No love for the posts about how our defense were gonna be so great in the future when Ratchuk, Lehtivuori, Bodrov, Bartulis, Marshall matures?

That's the way things go, we look at our prospects and try to think of how they'll turn out if they develop into NHL players. It's no fun thinking about how they'll turn out as players in the NLB after having played five seasons in the AHL without making enough impact to earn a callup.

Also, in fairness, that was in the summer after Parent had stepped in as a rookie d in the playoffs and done pretty well. He looked like he would be a real solid shutdown dman at the time. And Coburn looked like he was a top pairing dman...

On a side note, I miss a lot of those posters in that thread, that don't come around here anymore.

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02-09-2012, 10:13 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by columbiaNW View Post
Is this a serious question? I ask genuinely, because I don't know if you 'really' follow the Flyers. As an aside, your emotional post is a little unnecessary. But I will explain how Gustafsson is the single most overrated prospect you guys have, while MAB is not...

Coming into this season, MAB was an afterthought in this organization. He was likely going to go the way of Kevin Marshall and get traded for an expiring AHL deal. He was knocked out in a fight last year, and finished the year in the ECHL. Suffice it to say, he was NOT in the Flyers long term plans.

Conversely, Erik Gustafsson came into this season with the hype of "being the next Timonen", which is not messageboard myth. Erik Gustafsson himself told the media that Holmgren and Don Luce told him SPECIFICALLY they envisioned him their next Timonen. All we read all summer and coming into the year was how "Gus" had top pairing talent, and all other cliche-isms that get thrown around. Since coming back from the wrist injury, Gustafsson looks like a scared little boy playing the game amongst men. He shies away from contact and gets rammed at ever opportunity. Forwards love him on the ice because they know they are getting the puck back.

Gustafsson was just benched for Lilja last week, but Andreas Lilja sucks at life so badly that the coaches had to get Gustafsson back in.

Going back to MAB, he took the most of an opportunity he was given, which was essentially he last shot at playing pro hockey. He changed his diet, practice habits and dedication to the game, and he is playing a bigger role for your team than ever expected. I call that underdog.

I know you like to throw around stats, so I want you to break Gustafsson's stats into two parts, pre-injury and post. Pre, he played 5 games. His stats were grossly padded by the blowout game v CBJ where he played over 20 minutes. Since coming back from injury he has not played as many minutes NOR as many shifts as MAB. I will post the splits later today, to show how wrong you are here.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter to me who you prefer, I was providing an outsider's perspective. Your emotional post was a little strange, if not misplaced. I will tell you this, opposing teams love seeing "Gus" on the ice because they know a turnover is about to happen. Brandon Prust told a NY reporter that MAB was a one of the toughest young kids in the league, and I was told he said similar in the HBO series. Prust has no reason to say anything like that if it isn't true.
Only reason it was semi-emotional is because you come in saying your a neutral fan tearing apart Gus and saying how good Bourdon is. Ahh and I do like stats because some people here claim opinions as actual facts.

Gustafsson is 3rd on the team in corsi, only behind Timonen and Pronger. MAB is 7th. For turnovers, Gus has 7 in 14 games while Bourdon has 19 in 34 games. The statistical difference is too close to say Bourdon doesnt turn it over as much as Gus. But I like how the opponents wait for Gustafsson to be out there.... even though he doesnt turn it over alot. I can throw down save% but thats alittle tricky comparing players who have played a significant amount of games to alittle. If we did though, Lilja would be considered our best defender. For on ice shooting %, Gustafsson leads the team with 12.5 but yet again, you dont count due to amount of games. Bourdon is last on the team with 7.23... below Lilja.

Gustafsson shifts: 19.88 shifts.
Bourdon shifts: 21.81 shifts.

So Bourdon has had 2 extra shifts. Gonna happen when one is playing with Carle (2nd pairing) and the other with Meszaros (3rd pairing)

In the end its hard to compare the two at the moment. One plays with better teammates and better competition compared to the other. Honestly I see this debate as a side who likes hard hitters and those who like passers. And I like Bourdon, but you dont degrade Gus to pump up Bourdon more. Whos fault was it that Bourdon went to the ECHL? Who's fault was it that Gus was called Timonen? I can see why Lappy said it, because honestly duruing the rookie camp he was hands down the best defender out there. Lappy, Homer, etc etc all said it.


Honestly I was going to come in and post a pretty neutral post, but a comment completely destroying one player kinda got me going a bit.


Last edited by sa cyred: 02-09-2012 at 10:39 AM.
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Old
02-09-2012, 10:24 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
No love for the posts about how our defense were gonna be so great in the future when Ratchuk, Lehtivuori, Bodrov, Bartulis, Marshall matures?

That's the way things go, we look at our prospects and try to think of how they'll turn out if they develop into NHL players. It's no fun thinking about how they'll turn out as players in the NLB after having played five seasons in the AHL without making enough impact to earn a callup.

Also, in fairness, that was in the summer after Parent had stepped in as a rookie d in the playoffs and done pretty well. He looked like he would be a real solid shutdown dman at the time. And Coburn looked like he was a top pairing dman...

On a side note, I miss a lot of those posters in that thread, that don't come around here anymore.
We always hope the best for our prospects but in fact the odds are against us.

Only about a quarter of the players selected in the second round turn into NHL regulars. And it turns worse from round 3 onwards. Stats indicate that only 12% of those prospects ever make it to the NHL.

So unless we are picking in the first round, the majority of the picks will become irrelevant sooner or later.

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02-09-2012, 03:31 PM
  #32
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Gust makes a great first pass, Calm on the puck, good shot and has shown some defensive ability. Whats not to like about him?

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02-09-2012, 03:54 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by columbiaNW View Post
Is this a serious question? I ask genuinely, because I don't know if you 'really' follow the Flyers. As an aside, your emotional post is a little unnecessary. But I will explain how Gustafsson is the single most overrated prospect you guys have, while MAB is not...

Coming into this season, MAB was an afterthought in this organization. He was likely going to go the way of Kevin Marshall and get traded for an expiring AHL deal. He was knocked out in a fight last year, and finished the year in the ECHL. Suffice it to say, he was NOT in the Flyers long term plans.
Correct so far...

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Originally Posted by columbiaNW View Post
Conversely, Erik Gustafsson came into this season with the hype of "being the next Timonen", which is not messageboard myth. Erik Gustafsson himself told the media that Holmgren and Don Luce told him SPECIFICALLY they envisioned him their next Timonen.
I don't remember this.

Regardless of whether or not it happened, you shouldn't buy immediately into what an organization is telling you about one of it's one, particularly when boasting.

Rookie mistakes are made by rookies. If some kids on the boards took it and ran with it, then it's their problem, not yours to bring up for some en masse divine retribution against Gustafsson.

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Originally Posted by columbiaNW View Post
All we read all summer and coming into the year was how "Gus" had top pairing talent, and all other cliche-isms that get thrown around.
Not once did I see anyone throwing around Gus as a top-end talent.

In fact, I distinctly remember saying it could go two ways:

Gustafsson could turn into Carle or he could turn into Randy Jones.

I was leaning toward Carle, and in fact, I had him penciled in as Carle's replacement next to Pronger for 2012-13 since his offensive play would be the beneficiary of Pronger's steadiness.

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Originally Posted by columbiaNW View Post
Since coming back from the wrist injury, Gustafsson looks like a scared little boy playing the game amongst men. He shies away from contact and gets rammed at ever opportunity. Forwards love him on the ice because they know they are getting the puck back.
Because injuries heal immediately?

Maybe it's still sore and he's scared of re-injuring it?

He didn't play this way in his first stint, and I doubt this is a real glimpse into the future of Gustafsson. He's a smaller guy, like Timonen, but he's shown he can body players in the AHL.

A common mistake people make is believing that players are significantly bigger or any bigger in the NHL than in the AHL. The game is faster but not bigger. If Gustafsson could keep up with the combination of speed/size at the AHL, he'll manage in the NHL. The only question remaining is how much he comes along through his career.

You're blaming him for being a rookie. It's really unfair.

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Originally Posted by columbiaNW View Post
Gustafsson was just benched for Lilja last week, but Andreas Lilja sucks at life so badly that the coaches had to get Gustafsson back in.
Or they were giving Gustafsson a rest...?

Like how they don't overuse Couturier?

It's also possible they liked Lilja as a bigger defensemen against that particular opponent. Ever notice when Shelley gets in the lineup over Zolnierczyk? It's against more physical/bigger opponents.

But I'm fairly confident you overlooked that during your Gustafsson witch-hunt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by columbiaNW View Post
Going back to MAB, he took the most of an opportunity he was given, which was essentially he last shot at playing pro hockey. He changed his diet, practice habits and dedication to the game, and he is playing a bigger role for your team than ever expected. I call that underdog.
Yeah, so, the underachieving Bourdon, former QMJHL defenseman of the year, rededicated himself to hockey and look what he's achieved.

That doesn't mean he has top-end potential. He's sluggish, his defensive game gets exposed because of it, and skating is just not something you can realistically correct in your early 20s after a lifetime of skating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by columbiaNW View Post
I know you like to throw around stats, so I want you to break Gustafsson's stats into two parts, pre-injury and post. Pre, he played 5 games. His stats were grossly padded by the blowout game v CBJ where he played over 20 minutes. Since coming back from injury he has not played as many minutes NOR as many shifts as MAB. I will post the splits later today, to show how wrong you are here.
You want to split the stats of a 17-game NHL career?

Are you for real dude?

I don't even know how to react to splitting up a 17-game sample size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by columbiaNW View Post
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter to me who you prefer, I was providing an outsider's perspective. Your emotional post was a little strange, if not misplaced. I will tell you this, opposing teams love seeing "Gus" on the ice because they know a turnover is about to happen. Brandon Prust told a NY reporter that MAB was a one of the toughest young kids in the league, and I was told he said similar in the HBO series. Prust has no reason to say anything like that if it isn't true.
You seem to be an outsider on a witch-hunt. Why are you even here? Did Gustafsson say mean things about your mom?

It's a little alarming that you care so much.

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02-09-2012, 03:58 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Gust makes a great first pass, Calm on the puck, good shot and has shown some defensive ability. Whats not to like about him?
That is what the organization probably noted when they likened him to Timonen.

His demeanor as the AHL anchor was a calm, collected passer; someone who slows the game down to his speed.

That's the most notable part of Timonen's game.

Unfortunately for Gustafsson, his defense has a long way to go before he resembles Timonen in that regard.

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02-09-2012, 04:04 PM
  #35
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I think Gus has taken a step back because of injury, while MAB has taken a step back due to exposure to the league. I think the latter is more discouraging. I'd take Gus.

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02-09-2012, 04:12 PM
  #36
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That is what the organization probably noted when they likened him to Timonen.

His demeanor as the AHL anchor was a calm, collected passer; someone who slows the game down to his speed.

That's the most notable part of Timonen's game.

Unfortunately for Gustafsson, his defense has a long way to go before he resembles Timonen in that regard.
Kimmo was 24 years old when he started in the NHL, he played 50 games that year for 12 points. Gust has a two years on him, he has plenty of time to develop his game. It's not like it's terrible at the moment either

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02-09-2012, 04:14 PM
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I can throw down save% but thats alittle tricky comparing players who have played a significant amount of games to alittle. If we did though, Lilja would be considered our best defender. For on ice shooting %, Gustafsson leads the team with 12.5 but yet again, you dont count due to amount of games. Bourdon is last on the team with 7.23... below Lilja.

It's more than "tricky." These on ice shooting % and save % stats are like picking names out of a hat. You need gigantic sample sizes to have significance and make inferences (I'm talking thousands of shots). In the context of this conversation, they are more like trivia than evidence.

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02-09-2012, 04:17 PM
  #38
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Kimmo was 24 years old when he started in the NHL, he played 50 games that year for 12 points. Gust has a two years on him, he has plenty of time to develop his game. It's not like it's terrible at the moment either
The "potential" is definitely there, but Timonen had a much better jump defensively when he entered. We'll see if Gustafsson can do it.

Right now I'm just tempering my expectations. Honestly, this "poll" is a no-brainer though. The answer is Gustafsson.

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02-09-2012, 04:24 PM
  #39
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It's more than "tricky." These on ice shooting % and save % stats are like picking names out of a hat. You need gigantic sample sizes to have significance and make inferences (I'm talking thousands of shots). In the context of this conversation, they are more like trivia than evidence.
I think sv% can be used if the sample sizes are closer to one another. An example is Carle and Timonen. They average about the same amount of time, but Timonen faces harder competition while having a higher sv%.

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02-09-2012, 04:46 PM
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Timmonen-Coburn
Meszaros-Gustaffson
Bourdon-? (2012 draft, July 1st, trade deadline etc)
Lilja
Disaster waiting to happen

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02-09-2012, 05:03 PM
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This thread is starting to get the over sensitivity of the Bryz thread. I don't think either has played enough to make some of these strong statements on either's ability.

Hopefully, Bernie Parent 74 does not jump in, or this could get ugly.

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02-09-2012, 05:59 PM
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Disaster waiting to happen
This. I don't see how people can expect us to draft a load of defensemen, let Carle walk, and suddenly our team will become a powerhouse next season. Especially with Kimmo in the twilight of his career. Just because we lucked out with a bunch of rookies this year doesn't mean we can expect the same next year on the defensive side. This team needs defensive help, and it needs it very soon.

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02-09-2012, 06:00 PM
  #43
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Disaster waiting to happen
Yeah, I hope we come out of the summer looking better than that on defense. Imo, we shouldnt' be counting on both Bourdon and Gustafsson to be regulars next season, unless, perhaps, they really grow and up their games down the stretch and in the playoffs.

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02-10-2012, 10:50 PM
  #44
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If I have to choose, it's MAB. I've watched him pretty closely and honestly, I think he's one of the best looking rookie D men I've seen on the Flyers in some time. It seems like most people here tend to focus on his mistakes and yes, he does make some, but rookies will do that. Rookie mistakes notwithstanding, I've been very impressed by the many NHL veteran level plays he's makes. He has shown the ability to stand up attacking forwards as they come across the blueline and negate their sorties with a deft stick and/or by bodying up and sealing guys off the puck. In fact, I've seen him do this to top NHL forwards, like Eric Staal, Daniel Alfredsson and others. That kind of thing scores big points in my book. I've also seen him make some pretty heady plays in the defensive zone to clear the puck out under pressure, either by making a quick flip off the boards, hitting a forward for an outlet or by skating it out. I've also seen him D up on guys in front, battling to keep them from getting their sticks on pucks. I also would point to MAB's strong physical game. He's a strong hitter, has shown he can clear crease and doesn't hesitate to stick up for his teammates.

Offensively, I think Bourdon has shown flashes of ability that indicates he has untapped potential to produce. He can move the puck, pass it, has a good shot when he uses it and seems to have a fairly good offensive instincts. Regarding his skating, I don't think it is nearly as poor as some people here think. He may not be a speedy guy but he skates well enough to play the position.

I've been very pleased with MAB thus far and feel that as he gets more experience and further develops his skillset at this level, he has strong potential to become a top four D man in the NHL. At 23, with a mere 35 games under his belt I think he's emerging as an important asset to the Flyers. I hope the team keeps his development on track so he's ready to jump into a top four role if needed once there are certain vacancies there.

I'm not as sold on Gustafsson at this time, but I like his poise. He seems to have a decent overall game but doesn't yet strike me as having the potnetial to be as much of an impact player as MAB. Having said that I need to see more of him before I feel comfortable making any conclusions about his longer term viability at the NHL level.

Regardless, I'm glad we have both of these guys on the fold...for now.

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02-10-2012, 11:03 PM
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Not to be a smart ass, but being one of the best rookie defensemen that the Flyers have produced in quite some time isn't saying much, especially if we're talking about players who have spent extended time with the Phantoms.

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02-10-2012, 11:11 PM
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This thread could also be titled...

Having a Colonoscopy vs Inserting a Catheter


Neither player is really pleasant to watch now.

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02-10-2012, 11:50 PM
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This thread could also be titled...

Having a Colonoscopy vs Inserting a Catheter


Neither player is really pleasant to watch now.
The defense except Timonen isnt pleasant to watch right now.

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02-11-2012, 12:16 AM
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Not to be a smart ass, but being one of the best rookie defensemen that the Flyers have produced in quite some time isn't saying much, especially if we're talking about players who have spent extended time with the Phantoms.
Yeah, I hear what you're saying, and I fully understood that when making my statement. It is what it is.

I'll take it a step further too, in saying that MAB's been better than many of the warmed over vets and waiver wire fodder that have been in and out on that revolving door (5/6 7 position) on D over recent years. He will make rookie mistakes...granted, but I can live with that...he's learning things through those mistakes now that should pay dividends later for him and the team.

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02-11-2012, 12:27 AM
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I can live with Bourdon's mistakes more than I do Lilja, or if Holmgren would have made a panic trade a la Andrew Awfulberts.

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02-11-2012, 01:36 AM
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Country: Slovenia
Posts: 3,098
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
I can live with Bourdon's mistakes more than I do Lilja, or if Holmgren would have made a panic trade a la Andrew Awfulberts.
I had time to watch all Flyers games that season Alberts was here, and I actually liked the guy and his play. Does that make me the only one?

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