HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Boston Bruins
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Trading inside vs outside the Division. (Thornton and Kessel Revisited).

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-11-2012, 03:37 AM
  #1
palindrom
Registered User
 
palindrom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,148
vCash: 500
Trading inside vs outside the Division. (Thornton and Kessel Revisited).

We often hear that Teams avoid to trade inside the division. I just dont think its the right strategy.

So here is three questions:

Going back to the past, should Boston accept a lower offer for Kessel to send him outside the division, so Boston doesnt have to face Kessel 6 times per year. Do you mind facing Kessel six times per year?

Going back into the past, would you mind to get a better offer for Thorthon but sending him to Ottawa or Montreal instead of San Jose?

Does it worth it to refuse the best offer for a player and accept a (slightly) lesser offer to avoid a trade inside the division?


Last edited by palindrom: 02-11-2012 at 03:45 AM.
palindrom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 03:48 AM
  #2
Sturm und Drang
Registered User
 
Sturm und Drang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Madison, WI
Country: United States
Posts: 209
vCash: 500
I'd say you always take the deal that improves your team the most. You may play six games against a divisional rival, but you play 76 games against the rest of the league. Maximizing the strength of your own team is a much more effective strategy than worrying about the marginal benefit to a single opponent.

Sturm und Drang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 04:08 AM
  #3
Pay Carl
don't lose touch
 
Pay Carl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Vermont
Country: United States
Posts: 10,393
vCash: 500
In theory all trades are equal or close to it, so to me I dont really think to much of what division or conference they end up in.

As far as playing Kessel, we havent lost to the Leafs once this year so I'm ok with it haha. Plus, it means that the Leafs will be stronger now, sure, but weaker in the future as they will not have Seguin Hamilton and Knight.

To me I would be more scared of a team with TS and DH in the future when they are superstars than facing a team with just Kessel now.

So I guess to answer your question I will take the better deal and keep them in the division as opposed to a worse deal that moves them away

Pay Carl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 06:16 AM
  #4
Latrappe
Selke winner
 
Latrappe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,903
vCash: 500
Couple of points:

1- You take the highest return regardless of the conference. If you have two offers very close then it might be better to move the player outside your own conference.

2- It's very rare that you will see an " in division-conference " trade between two competitive teams. Most of the time, the teams who are involved are in a different stage of their " development " read a contender trading with a team who rebuild.

3- Thornton? I'm not how sure how a trade to Ottawa or a Canadian team would have help him or hurt the Bruins. Canadian fans are very rabid one and Thornton would have took a lot of heat for not performing. No way the Bruins would have moved an " impact " player to Montreal. Too much history/rivalry between both club. You have to remember that, a few years ago, the Bruins had to deal McLaren to SJ in order to acquire Jeff Hackett so... It tell you how a high profile trade,between the two clubs, is very unlikely

Latrappe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 06:32 AM
  #5
ODAAT
Registered User
 
ODAAT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
We often hear that Teams avoid to trade inside the division. I just dont think its the right strategy.

So here is three questions:

Going back to the past, should Boston accept a lower offer for Kessel to send him outside the division, so Boston doesnt have to face Kessel 6 times per year. Do you mind facing Kessel six times per year?

Going back into the past, would you mind to get a better offer for Thorthon but sending him to Ottawa or Montreal instead of San Jose?

Does it worth it to refuse the best offer for a player and accept a (slightly) lesser offer to avoid a trade inside the division?
I could care less about facing Kessel 6 times a year. Ya think that the Leafs fans/media will be too anxious to face the Bruins 6 times a year with Segs/Hamilton/Knight in the lineup potentially in a few short years??

With trades, there is always a risk, even with players that are known commoditites, it guarantees nothing in the way of success. Some players, although from a fan stand point seem to be natural fits, just don`t fit in, we`ve seen blockbusters for rentals (less so these days) blow up in teams faces, and we`ve seen smaller moves (let`s use Kelly/Pevs) for example as being more successful than imagined.

I don`t care about trading inside a conference/division, it all depends on the context, by not trading within the conference/division, a GM essentially is closing himself off to being able to aquire conceivably alot of solid players from 14 teams, not good business practice IMO.

ODAAT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 06:43 AM
  #6
Latrappe
Selke winner
 
Latrappe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,903
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ODAAT View Post
I could care less about facing Kessel 6 times a year. Ya think that the Leafs fans/media will be too anxious to face the Bruins 6 times a year with Segs/Hamilton/Knight in the lineup potentially in a few short years??

With trades, there is always a risk, even with players that are known commoditites, it guarantees nothing in the way of success. Some players, although from a fan stand point seem to be natural fits, just don`t fit in, we`ve seen blockbusters for rentals (less so these days) blow up in teams faces, and we`ve seen smaller moves (let`s use Kelly/Pevs) for example as being more successful than imagined.

I don`t care about trading inside a conference/division, it all depends on the context, by not trading within the conference/division, a GM essentially is closing himself off to being able to aquire conceivably alot of solid players from 14 teams, not good business practice IMO.
Yep and i think Burke was overrating the Leafs when he traded for Kessel. His team was not close to contend so the timing, for making that deal, wasn't " right ". I'm a big fan of making a trade, even if it cost a premium, when the player you acquire can make the difference and put you over the top. Wasn't the case with the Leafs, IMHO. This trade doesn't look that " bad " on Burke if you look at the stats sheet but the development of Seguin and maybe Hamilton will give the Bruins an edge that i'm sure, Burke didn't want to give them. That said, there's always a risk when prospects/draft picks are involved so i think the " luck " factor was also in play, here. It's a win/win trade but, in the end, the Bruins might end up with the better return. As the old adage says: you have to wait a certain amount of time before judging a trade...

Latrappe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 06:51 AM
  #7
ODAAT
Registered User
 
ODAAT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latrappe View Post
Yep and i think Burke was overrating the Leafs when he traded for Kessel. His team was not close to contend so the timing of the deal wasn't " right ". I'm a big fan of making a trade, even if it cost a premium, when the player you acquire can make the difference and put you over the top. Wasn't the case with the Leafs, IMHO. This trade doesn't look that " bad " on Burke if you look at the stats sheet but the development of Seguin and maybe Hamilton will give the Bruins an edge that i'm sure, Burke didn't want to give them. That said, there's always a risk when prospects/draft picks are involved so i think the " luck " factor was also in play, here.
Absolutely agree Trapper, if I recall, he (Burke) signed Komisarek and I think Finger, then proclaimed his team to be a playoff bound team?? I think most of us would agree, and I think Chia anticipated the Leafs to be on the outside looking in come playoff time and that pick would be top 10, EVERYTHING that could go wrong did go wrong for the Leafs that year and the gift of Segs/then Knight fell right into the teams hands, then Hamilton slipping to 9th spot and I needed to pinch myself......ouch

On paper, Kessel has done exactly what Burke wanted and needed him to do, they could care less if Phil plays 3 zone hockey (which ultimately will bite them in the arse if they ever do make the playoffs), all they wanted was a winger who could pop 30 goals or more and they got it.

We`ll see I guess, but I tell ya one thing, as year 2 of the Seguin has shown us, the Bruins have a kid who from all accounts, works hard, is coacheable and pushes himself to be the best, sure, he sleeps in from time to time but that seems to be an issue of the past and hardly the first time a young kid has done this.

I have a buddy who`s a massive Hawks fan, says Kane was a regular absentee in year one only the Hawks turned the other cheek constantly.

Knight could be the huge salt in the wounds of this trade believe it or not, from all accounts when Burke was shipping Kaberle, it was reported that it was Knight he most coveted over Colborne.

Either way, as you stated, ya never know with prospects, not inconceivable we could be watching a game from the ACC/TD where Hamilton feeds an outlet pass to Segs who puts in on the tape of Knight who skates right through the "check" of Kessel in the neutral zone and roofs it Burke`s face will be even more red then

Have a good one Trapper

ODAAT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 07:12 AM
  #8
yohan1212
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,141
vCash: 500
Not worried at all about kessel. By the time the leafs are a playoff team he will be out of town, gone to the highest bidder.

yohan1212 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 07:17 AM
  #9
ODAAT
Registered User
 
ODAAT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by yohan1212 View Post
Not worried at all about kessel. By the time the leafs are a playoff team he will be out of town, gone to the highest bidder.
HBO 24/7 following the Leafs next year, how long do ya figure it`ll take the camera crew to even find Kessel let alone hear him speak??? I am telling ya, next season`s 24/7 special could be potentially one of the most boring yet, it`ll be nothing but wall to wall Wilson (if he`s still coach) and Burke who neither have ever met a mic or camera they don`t love.

Burke`s act (tie all loosened) is as tiresome as Don Cherry`s, and Wilson is one of the most condescending men in the game, I will have exactly zero interest in 24/7, and with all due respect to the Wings, what are the camera`s gonna do, follow that veteran squad around and watch Lidstrom take his grandkids to pre-school???

ODAAT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 07:17 AM
  #10
ODAAT
Registered User
 
ODAAT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by yohan1212 View Post
Not worried at all about kessel. By the time the leafs are a playoff team he will be out of town, gone to the highest bidder.
HBO 24/7 following the Leafs next year, how long do ya figure it`ll take the camera crew to even find Kessel let alone hear him speak??? I am telling ya, next season`s 24/7 special could be potentially one of the most boring yet, it`ll be nothing but wall to wall Wilson (if he`s still coach) and Burke who neither have ever met a mic or camera they don`t love.

Burke`s act (tie all loosened) is as tiresome as Don Cherry`s, and Wilson is one of the most condescending men in the game, I will have exactly zero interest in 24/7, and with all due respect to the Wings, what are the camera`s gonna do, follow that veteran squad around and watch Lidstrom take his grandkids to pre-school???

ODAAT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 07:20 AM
  #11
ODAAT
Registered User
 
ODAAT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,299
vCash: 500
sorry for the double post

ODAAT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 07:55 AM
  #12
palindrom
Registered User
 
palindrom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,148
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latrappe View Post
Couple of points:

3- You have to remember that, a few years ago, the Bruins had to deal McLaren to SJ in order to acquire Jeff Hackett so... It tell you how a high profile trade,between the two clubs, is very unlikely
At the same time it show how futile it is to try to avoid to send a player to a division rival.

What if Montreal accepted a lesser offer from SJ in order to avoid Hackett in Boston? Doesnt sound winner to me. I remember the Montreal media was ''not happy'' (to be polite) with this trade.

palindrom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 07:59 AM
  #13
ReggieMoto
Registered User
 
ReggieMoto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Manchester, NH
Country: United States
Posts: 4,452
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to ReggieMoto
Quote:
Originally Posted by ODAAT View Post
I could care less about facing Kessel 6 times a year.
What about David Krejci?

ReggieMoto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 08:25 AM
  #14
BrainOfJ
Pure Bread
 
BrainOfJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: State St.
Country: United States
Posts: 18,791
vCash: 500
I always wondered what the Nashville package for kessel was

BrainOfJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 09:19 AM
  #15
Ratty
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rive Gauche
Posts: 5,939
vCash: 500
From what I read at the time, the Bruins did have a better offfer for Kessel from Nashville. However, Phil the Thrill refused to go there. In the end it worked out fabulously for the Bs.

Ratty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 09:41 AM
  #16
TCL40
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 17,012
vCash: 500
I don't think it matters. I think you take the best deal available that improves your team.

I actually think in some ways it is kind of fun to face Kessel 6 times a year and mostly watch him get shutdown by Chara.

TCL40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 10:22 AM
  #17
trenton1
Paille Good
 
trenton1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Loge 31 Row 10
Country: Belize
Posts: 6,723
vCash: 500
I think prior GM's often took lesser deals in order to get certain players far away. The fans were ripped off consistently by these gutless and unintelligent tactics.

Chiarelli has guts. Chiarelli has a ring as a GM.

trenton1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 11:15 AM
  #18
WBC8
Registered User
 
WBC8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: HFL 4 Life
Country: United States
Posts: 36,431
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to WBC8
Fearful GM's are afraid to deal in the same division / conference . Winners get the best deal they can. Chiarelli is a winner. Rumor has it the Nashville deal was even better then Toronto deal (AT THE TIME) and contained more immediate help along with top prospects.

WBC8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 11:19 AM
  #19
WBC8
Registered User
 
WBC8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: HFL 4 Life
Country: United States
Posts: 36,431
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to WBC8
Quote:
Originally Posted by heelsox View Post
I always wondered what the Nashville package for kessel was
Googling now but I could have sworn I saw Hamhuis and Wilson/Ellis.

WBC8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 01:04 PM
  #20
palindrom
Registered User
 
palindrom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,148
vCash: 500
Well, i guess the people who advocate for avoiding trading inside the division are invisible in this thread, maybe the way i presented my argument make it hard to says something against it.

But i often read comment like: ''Our GM will never trade X player to our rival'' ''i dont want to face him 6 times a years''

And it make no sense to me when we realize avoiding a division trade also mean accepting a lower offer.

I think most fans just want an overpayment if they are to trade to their rival. But i dont think an overpayment is needed, getting the best offer in the entire league for an X player is enough.


Last edited by palindrom: 02-11-2012 at 01:37 PM.
palindrom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 03:15 PM
  #21
KnightofBoston
MVP
 
KnightofBoston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Easthampton, Ma
Country: United States
Posts: 12,902
vCash: 500
Kessel has like what, 6 points in 17 games against the bruins?

Do you think we are worried about facing him?

KnightofBoston is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 04:00 PM
  #22
Gonzothe7thDman
Registered User
 
Gonzothe7thDman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bridgewater, Ma
Country: United States
Posts: 5,377
vCash: 500
Chiarelli wanted Ryan Ellis and Colin Wilson and Poille said no, Wilson was too valuable.

Gonzothe7thDman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2012, 10:34 PM
  #23
palindrom
Registered User
 
palindrom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,148
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightofBoston View Post
Kessel has like what, 6 points in 17 games against the bruins?

Do you think we are worried about facing him?
What do you think about a comment like this....(I was asking Vancouver fans if they would rather accept a 20th choice overall for Schneider to a division rival or a 31th overall from a team of the other conference.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Realistically, If they HAD to trade Schneider, they'd probably take the 31st pick. You don't want a player of Schneider's capability playing against you 6 times a year.


Last edited by palindrom: 02-11-2012 at 10:41 PM.
palindrom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2012, 10:01 PM
  #24
Cabin Mirror
Registered User
 
Cabin Mirror's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: North America
Posts: 415
vCash: 500
A competent GM will trade with whichever team makes the best offer. Only exceptions would be if it was a bitter rival (Bruins/Canadiens, Red Sox/Yankees/etc) or if the offers were indistinguishable.

Cabin Mirror is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2012, 10:41 PM
  #25
FutureConsiderations
Registered User
 
FutureConsiderations's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Brookline, MA
Country: Ireland
Posts: 20,449
vCash: 500
It's tough to "revisit" the thought while divorcing ourselves of the actual results, which were greater than anyone anticipated or hoped for. Toronto was bad, but did anyone have them pegged for 29 out of 30 with Kessel? For that matter, are we revisiting this thought if the lottery throws a curveball and Boston ends up with Nino, Gudbranson, or Johansen? Good players, but not cornerstones like Seguin and Hall.

FutureConsiderations is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:24 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.