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stick flex discussion

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Old
02-11-2012, 11:25 AM
  #26
Stickmata
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonx View Post

It really depends on the rule of thumb is: a whipper stick is better than a stiff stick. A stick that's too stiff can be really detrimental to your techniques.
This is so wrong.

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02-11-2012, 04:49 PM
  #27
ArrogantOwl
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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
This is so wrong.
Elaborate.

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02-11-2012, 04:53 PM
  #28
TieClark
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Depends what kind of player you are... a 100 for a guy that takes a ton of slapshots isn't horrible. A 100 for a guy taking who rarely takes slap shots is a waste.. go with a 70 or 80 and start ripping wrist/snap shots off... get the most out of your stick.

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02-11-2012, 05:25 PM
  #29
AIREAYE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
Depends what kind of player you are... a 100 for a guy that takes a ton of slapshots isn't horrible. A 100 for a guy taking who rarely takes slap shots is a waste.. go with a 70 or 80 and start ripping wrist/snap shots off... get the most out of your stick.
Jeez, we have a guy claiming whippy sticks are the best and we have this. Simply not true, it doesn't depend on what shots you take, it depends on height like Jarick said and weight/strength. There's a few factors involved but it's not a complicated criteria...

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02-11-2012, 05:29 PM
  #30
TieClark
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Originally Posted by AIREAYE View Post
Jeez, we have a guy claiming whippy sticks are the best and we have this. Simply not true, it doesn't depend on what shots you take, it depends on height like Jarick said and weight/strength. There's a few factors involved but it's not a complicated criteria...
It most certainly does depend on the shots you take. There is a reason Phil Kessel uses an intermediate stick rather than a senior and it isn't his height or weight.

There's also a reason Chara's stick is 160 flex and it's not so he can rip wrist shots through the net.

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02-11-2012, 05:39 PM
  #31
AIREAYE
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Phil Kessel and Alex Ovechkin use sticks in the 70-80 flex range because they prefer the stick loading up for them. Chara uses 127 flex because he's the tallest player in the NHL. You're using 2 extremes as a basis for your argument. How about the majority of NHL players who use sticks in the 85-110 range?

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02-11-2012, 05:43 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AIREAYE View Post
Phil Kessel and Alex Ovechkin use sticks in the 70-80 flex range because they prefer the stick loading up for them. Chara uses 127 flex because he's the tallest player in the NHL. You're using 2 extremes as a basis for your argument. How about the majority of NHL players who use sticks in the 85-110 range?
Kessel uses and intermediate stick... designed for pre-teens... because you can count the amount of slapshots he takes a year with your hands. He almost strictly takes wrist shots/snap shots... which is why his stick has such a low flex even though he's over 200 pounds. I have a hard time believing Ovechkin's flex is that low because his stick would break at tremendous frequency with a 70 flex... he practically falls on his stick when he shoots.

But you're right, it's not a hard concept.

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02-11-2012, 05:54 PM
  #33
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Ovechkin has used a range of flexes over the course of his career and iirc he is using an 82 flex. I repeat, you're using 2 extremes as a basis for your argument and you're using 2 very unique players with their own styles and skills. You can't generalize it as a 'rule' because it's simply not true.

Players using a stick that is too whippy for them will lose energy transfer on shots and passes, while a stick too stiff is the obvious. The player will not be able to utilize the flex to its potential, resulting in poor shots and passes. Does that necessarily mean that a strong player shouldn't use a whippy stick and vice versa? Absolutely not. Your example with Kessel is proof that it is not an absolute, but simply a very applicable and practical guideline that, thankfully, has no bearing on what kind of shots you take but rather to what extent you can put energy into that shot.

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02-11-2012, 05:58 PM
  #34
TieClark
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Originally Posted by AIREAYE View Post
Ovechkin has used a range of flexes over the course of his career and iirc he is using an 82 flex. I repeat, you're using 2 extremes as a basis for your argument and you're using 2 very unique players with their own styles and skills. You can't generalize it as a 'rule' because it's simply not true.

Players using a stick that is too whippy for them will lose energy transfer on shots and passes, while a stick too stiff is the obvious. The player will not be able to utilize the flex to its potential, resulting in poor shots and passes. Does that necessarily mean that a strong player shouldn't use a whippy stick and vice versa? Absolutely not. Your example with Kessel is proof that it is not an absolute, but simply a very applicable and practical guideline that, thankfully, has no bearing on what kind of shots you take but rather to what extent you can put energy into that shot.
Fine, they are extremes. Second example, there is a reason defenceman tend to have stiffer flexes and straighter curves than forwards. Again.. slapshots.

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02-11-2012, 06:02 PM
  #35
AIREAYE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
Fine, they are extremes. Second example, there is a reason defenceman tend to have stiffer flexes and straighter curves than forwards. Again.. slapshots.


If it works for you, it works for you, please don't claim it as fact. Next you'll be telling me that Supreme skates are for D and Vapor skates are for forwards...

Reader beware

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02-11-2012, 06:02 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
Fine, they are extremes. Second example, there is a reason defenceman tend to have stiffer flexes and straighter curves than forwards. Again.. slapshots.
They're also better for poking and checking. :doh

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02-11-2012, 06:50 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by AIREAYE View Post


If it works for you, it works for you, please don't claim it as fact. Next you'll be telling me that Supreme skates are for D and Vapor skates are for forwards...

Reader beware
It is fact... I sell sticks for my job... you're taught this kind of stuff. It's common sense really but it's not like I'm passing off my own opinion as fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrogantOwl View Post
They're also better for poking and checking. :doh
That would be the lie... nothing to do with stiffness.

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Old
02-11-2012, 07:01 PM
  #38
AIREAYE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
It is fact... I sell sticks for my job... you're taught this kind of stuff. It's common sense really but it's not like I'm passing off my own opinion as fact.


That would be the lie... nothing to do with stiffness.
As do I. I feel sorry for your customers.

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02-11-2012, 07:14 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by AIREAYE View Post
As do I. I feel sorry for your customers.
Clearly you weren't trained properly then

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Old
02-11-2012, 07:23 PM
  #40
AIREAYE
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http://www.modsquadhockey.com/forums...ickshaft-flex/
http://www.icewarehouse.com/custserv...key/stick.html
http://www.purehockey.com/guidance-i...es-pure-hockey

Education is the best method. Learn.
I understand that you're loyal to your manager or whoever, but I hope this helps.
I find the PureHockey one to be the better guideline.


Last edited by AIREAYE: 02-11-2012 at 07:31 PM.
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Old
02-11-2012, 07:39 PM
  #41
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http://www.thesportjournal.org/artic...ich-stick-best

"Stick Stiffness and Flexibility

Beyond the individual athlete’s overriding influence on slap shot speeds, what has also emerged from recent scholarly investigations is the notion that stick flexibility, not stick composition, is of primary concern. In fact, several slap shot studies involving both wood and composite sticks demonstrate the influence of stick flexibility on shooting velocity. For instance, in a study of composite sticks exhibiting eight different stiffness levels (from “low” to “pro-stiff”), Worobets, Fairbairn, and Stefanyshyn (2006) found that in wrist shots, highly flexible sticks stored the most strain energy during the loading phase. Complicating matters, however, are the authors’ conclusions that the benefits of utilizing a flexible stick did not extend to slap shots, where “it is the athlete and not the equipment influencing shot speed” (p. 191). With this conclusion, Worobets et al. issue hockey players a strong reminder of the primacy of their own performance over any technological innovations in hockey sticks."

I can find links too. Difference is yours didn't dispute anything I said, whereas mine supports what I said.

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02-11-2012, 07:51 PM
  #42
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In a related investigation, Pearsall et al. (1999) explored slap shot velocities generated by four different “flexes” of carbon-fiber composite shafts with wood blades. The authors reported that, for each of the 6 college- and professional-level hockey player subjects, puck velocities were highest with the least stiff stick (“medium flex”); conversely, puck velocities were lowest when the subjects used the “extra stiff flex” stick. A “significant advantage” for puck velocity during slap shots was attributed to those hockey sticks with less shaft stiffness (p. 9). Qualifying such positive language, however, the authors also noted that variability in shooting velocity across subjects was greater than variability across shaft stiffness, concluding that “the subjects themselves are perhaps more important in determining slap shot velocity than the stick characteristics” (p. 10).

Finally, exploring slap shot velocities produced by 11-year-olds utilizing wood sticks of two different stiffness levels, Roy and Doré (1976) found that using the more flexible stick produced slightly higher slap shot speeds (56.8 km/h) than did using the stiffer model (54.4 km/h). The results prompted the authors to advise flexible sticks for use by younger players, since with flexible sticks, “lower forces are required to achieve the same puck velocity” recorded with stiffer shafts (Roy and Doré, 1976, cited in Pearsall et al., 2000, p. 690). Overall, then, the findings of Worobets et al., Pearsall et al. (1999), and Roy and Doré strongly suggest that the use of flexible hockey sticks contributes substantially to final puck velocity during the slap shot, especially when used by younger players. If any characteristic of a stick deserves to be considered for its effect on the slap shot, then, it appears to be stick flexibility, not stick composition.

edit : unfortunately, this study does not mention what constitutes a 'flexible' stick. However I must admit, a very interesting study and I see how it supports your view with the first paragraph. But as you can see, the following two contradicts it if I understand it correctly.

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02-11-2012, 07:54 PM
  #43
TieClark
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So you counter by posting a link stating younger players should use more flexible sticks and the stick flex needs to match the player... ok? I never stated otherwise for either.

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02-11-2012, 08:06 PM
  #44
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Your idea of stick flex matching the player is detrimental. And it's your link, I just included the other 2 paragraphs that you didn't.

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Old
02-11-2012, 08:18 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AIREAYE View Post
Your idea of stick flex matching the player is detrimental. And it's your link, I just included the other 2 paragraphs that you didn't.
I realize it's the same article, it just expands to state kids had harder shots with lower flexes because they're kids.. therefore the stick flex needs to match the player. It does nothing to contradict the previous paragraph I posted which stated a lower flex allowed for the best wrist shot possible, yet that wasn't the case for slapshots.

So like I stated.. the flex has everything to do with you as a player. If you're taking a ton of slapshots, gets a stiffer stick. If you're Phil Kessel and don't even know how to take a slapshot, get a stick with more give in it. In most cases, people use both and it's up to them to decide which they'd rather have and what feels best to them.

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02-11-2012, 10:17 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
I realize it's the same article, it just expands to state kids had harder shots with lower flexes because they're kids.. therefore the stick flex needs to match the player. It does nothing to contradict the previous paragraph I posted which stated a lower flex allowed for the best wrist shot possible, yet that wasn't the case for slapshots.

So like I stated.. the flex has everything to do with you as a player. If you're taking a ton of slapshots, gets a stiffer stick. If you're Phil Kessel and don't even know how to take a slapshot, get a stick with more give in it. In most cases, people use both and it's up to them to decide which they'd rather have and what feels best to them.

there are general guidelines to stick flex but it comes down to each persons individual preference.

my personal preference to use around a 100 flex stick. i am around 5'10 and 230ish. i play defence and had a low kick vapor XXXX stick with 87 flex to start with. i also had a 102 flex stick and didnt notice the different to much when it came to playing with either stick. i found my 102 flex stick gave me tons of power on my slapshot and decent amount on y snapshot. when i moved to the mid kick One95 sticks, i tried with a 87 flex but its screwed my game up, my wrist shots were adequate but my slap shots were always going much further right than i was aiming. i tried a 102 flex stick and this remedied the whole situation. my shots are hard, accurate and i find the flex is perfect for me.

when it comes to picking stick flex so many factors come into play, its impossible to pick someones flex for them. size comes into play, position, style of play, and of course what stick your buying.

my two cents

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Old
02-11-2012, 10:36 PM
  #47
Stickmata
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrogantOwl View Post
Elaborate.
Saying that a rule of thumb is that a whippier stick is better than a stiffer sticks is, as I said, just plain wrong. There is no such rule of thumb and the statement has no basis in fact. There is only what is right for a given player, and it is far more complicated than a simple generalization like that or even simply basing it on height and/or weight.

Also, anecdotal data such as I'm xxx and I use an xx flex really isn't useful, because we have no idea whether that player uses it well. The only FACTS we know is that it takes more pressure to flex a stiffer stick and only a player that can effectively apply such pressure can benefit from a stiffer stick. Conversely a player that routinely generates too much pressure for a whippy stick won't be able to benefit from the whippy stick and in fact will see negative results. There are horses for courses and courses for horses.

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Old
02-13-2012, 09:33 AM
  #48
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Hockey ability = 99% skill + 1% equipment

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02-13-2012, 09:55 AM
  #49
AIREAYE
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Originally Posted by sanityplease View Post
Hockey ability = 99% skill + 1% equipment
Having better gear will never make you a better skilled player but having gear that isn't appropriate for you will hinder your ability. Interesting paradox.

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Old
02-13-2012, 09:59 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyster110 View Post
my personal preference to use around a 100 flex stick. i am around 5'10 and 230ish. i play defence and had a low kick vapor XXXX stick with 87 flex to start with. i also had a 102 flex stick and didnt notice the different to much when it came to playing with either stick. i found my 102 flex stick gave me tons of power on my slapshot and decent amount on y snapshot. when i moved to the mid kick One95 sticks, i tried with a 87 flex but its screwed my game up, my wrist shots were adequate but my slap shots were always going much further right than i was aiming. i tried a 102 flex stick and this remedied the whole situation. my shots are hard, accurate and i find the flex is perfect for me.
That's actually very common. Because the Supreme sticks are mid kick and Vapor low kick a lot of people go up in flex for the Supremes.

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