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Trade Deadline Approaching: Defender?

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Old
02-11-2012, 05:56 PM
  #51
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How much would we have to give away to get Grossman/Gill and Methot?

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02-11-2012, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
I wouldn't write Zidlicky off just because of a bad skid. I don't think the guy just turned into a pumpkin after 6+ years of getting it done at the NHL level. It's a buy low situation for a guy who might need a "change of scenery." I wouldn't be surprised if he could be had for a 3rd or even a 4th round pick. I'd certainly take that risk.
He has always been below par defensively. Just this year he is WAYYYYY below par. He is the complete opposite of what we need on defense.

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02-11-2012, 05:59 PM
  #53
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That will cost you at least two or three 2nd rounders, and a couple 3rd rounders. Are you really willing to give that up just to lose in the first round of the playoffs?
We are at 50 contracts (Maybe 49 because of Backlund being overseas). If we are going for players, I can see us throwing in prospects, maybe even guys on the current NHL roster for another position (example would be a forward for a defender)

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02-11-2012, 06:00 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Tim Tebow View Post
He is on the final year of his contract at a 3.85 hit (obviously would be prorated)

http://nhlnumbers.com/teams/TBL?year=2012
Thanks.

Don't think I've seen his name tossed around.

He is a fairly large, physical D.

Thoughts?

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02-11-2012, 06:04 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by PJStock View Post
That will cost you at least two or three 2nd rounders, and a couple 3rd rounders.
I think you are vastly overrating what these rentals are worth on the trade market.

2011:
Dennis Wideman was traded for a 3rd round pick
Bryan McCabe was traded for a 3rd round pick
Brent Sopel was traded for a 4th round pick
Eric Brewer was traded for a 3rd round pick
Ian White was traded for a 2nd round pick
Paul Mara was traded for a 5th round pick
Bryan Allen was traded for Sergei Samsonov

2010:
Joe Corvo was traded for a 2nd round pick
Andrew Alberts was traded for a 3rd round pick
Milan Jurcina was traded for a conditional pick (7th rounder)
Aaron Ward was traded for a 4th round pick
Dennis Seidenberg was traded for a 2nd round pick
Martin Skoula was traded for a 5th round pick
Derek Morris was traded for a conditional pick (3rd rounder because he re-signed)
Steven Kampfer was traded for a 4th round pick

2009:
Kent Huskins and Travis Moen were traded for a 4th round pick
James Wisniewski was traded for Samuel Pahlsson and a conditional pick (condition not met)
Steve Eminger was traded for a 3rd round pick
Jordan Leopold was traded for a 2nd round pick

I excluded the non-roster throw-in players that were used to balance contracts or fill AHL rosters.

The point is, a rental/deadline defenseman of this ilk usually goes for a 2nd, 3rd OR 4th round pick, not a 2nd AND a 3rd round pick.

Getting Grossman and Hannan/Allen probably won't cost much more than a 2nd round pick, a 3rd round pick and a Ben Holmstrom type total. It will not cost multiple 2nds and multiple 3rds. You are basically overestimating the price x2.

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Are you really willing to give that up just to lose in the first round of the playoffs?
Good grief. No one knows what's going to happen in the playoffs.


Last edited by Damaged Goods: 02-11-2012 at 06:12 PM.
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Old
02-11-2012, 06:07 PM
  #56
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He has always been below par defensively. Just this year he is WAYYYYY below par. He is the complete opposite of what we need on defense.
Hockey Reference gives him 23.3 career defensive point shares vs 24.2 career offensive point shares.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...zidlima01.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/about/point_shares.html

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02-11-2012, 06:11 PM
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Wasting assets on even more middle tier defense men would be insanely stupid. The last thing we need is more Carle's and Coburn's. Save the picks and try to get someone with #1 or #2 potential

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02-11-2012, 06:14 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
Wasting assets on even more middle tier defense men would be insanely stupid. The last thing we need is more Carle's and Coburn's. Save the picks and try to get someone with #1 or #2 potential
Yes. I'm all with this.

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02-11-2012, 06:15 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
Wasting assets on even more middle tier defense men would be insanely stupid. The last thing we need is more Carle's and Coburn's. Save the picks and try to get someone with #1 or #2 potential
Exactly. No more quick fixes. The problem is Snider over reacts to everything and hurts our future.

We are not good enough to win the cup this year, im fine with that, but a stupid trade could hurt chances down the line which is more important at this point.

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02-11-2012, 06:16 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
Wasting assets on even more middle tier defense men would be insanely stupid. The last thing we need is more Carle's and Coburn's. Save the picks and try to get someone with #1 or #2 potential
Trading a couple 2nd or 3rd round picks for rental players is not going to be the deciding factor in whether or not they can eventually acquire a Chris Pronger replacement.

Edit: And some middle tier defensemen could be very useful for this team. If Bryz finds his groove and the offense remains potent, a liability-free defense could gives this team a shot to compete with anyone.


Last edited by Damaged Goods: 02-11-2012 at 06:23 PM.
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02-11-2012, 06:21 PM
  #61
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i am still convinced the flyers are not going to get anyone

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02-11-2012, 06:23 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
Wasting assets on even more middle tier defense men would be insanely stupid. The last thing we need is more Carle's and Coburn's. Save the picks and try to get someone with #1 or #2 potential
Most reasonable thing ive ever seen on here

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02-11-2012, 06:27 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
Trading a couple 2nd or 3rd round picks for rental players is not going to be the deciding factor in whether or not they can eventually acquire a Chris Pronger replacement.

Edit: And some middle tier defensemen could be very useful for this team. If Bryz finds his groove and the offense remains potent, a liability-free defense could gives this team a shot to compete with anyone.
What makes you think that a middle tier defensemen is going to make this a liability free defense? Middle tier defensemen aren't relied on to anchor pairings and be the steady influence you need on a solid cup competing top 2 pairing. That's why they are middle tier defensemen by definition.

I mean people are interested in Andy fricken Sutton. Are you kidding me?

Theres also zero indication that Bryz is close to finding any sort of "groove", so I wouldnt bank on that.

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02-11-2012, 06:27 PM
  #64
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For some reason I have this fear that Brett Lebda will be a Flyer. I thought it earlier today too when they said Howson was at the game.

Maybe Martinek?
Martinek is out with concussion problems I think. Methot? He is good, but I think he's a bit overpaid.

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02-11-2012, 06:29 PM
  #65
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Martinek is out with concussion problems I think. Methot? He is good, but I think he's a bit overpaid.
Methot is out with broken jaw. He won't be available for 5-6 weeks

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02-11-2012, 06:31 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
Wasting assets on even more middle tier defense men would be insanely stupid. The last thing we need is more Carle's and Coburn's. Save the picks and try to get someone with #1 or #2 potential
I would disagree with this. Most of the names thrown around in this thread will only be moved for a 2nd to 4th round pick and with the Flyers it's going to be at best the mid-late part of the round.

Defensemen also take years to develop. Most #1 and #2 defenders in the NHL don't reach that mark until they are 25-27 years old. Using those draft picks won't actually benefit the Flyers for years and years.

Plus keep in mind many players play better or worse in different systems. Just because a player is having a mediocre or struggling this season with 1 team doesn't mean he will be the same with another team. For example Keith Ballard was an impressive defender in PHX and FLA but he is god awful in Vancouver. Ehrhoff was decent in San Jose but really took off in the Canucks system. Even offensive players. Simmonds is much better in a Flyers system then the Kings. Briere was better in the Sabres system. Leino in the Flyers system compared to the Sabres and Red Wings.

If the Flyers scout properly one of those average defenders could fit perfectly into what we need and sometimes fixing 1 issue can fix other issues as the pieces fall back in place. Kind of like what happened when the Phillies won the World Series. The bullpen was one of the worst in the MLB but they added Lidge and everyone else moved down a spot and they all played better with lesser responsibility and were statistically one of the best bullpens in the MLB. In an NHL system if they can bring in a player who can handle his responsibility the others can fall in place. Like with Carle. He has been terrible of late but when he played with Pronger he was very productive specifically because Pronger was so defensively sound. Obviously we won't get another Pronger but there are overall average defenders who do play a strong well positioned defense unlike MAB. The combo may not be as good as Pronger - Carle but it certainly won't be as awful as Carle - MAB.

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02-11-2012, 06:37 PM
  #67
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I would disagree with this. Most of the names thrown around in this thread will only be moved for a 2nd to 4th round pick and with the Flyers it's going to be at best the mid-late part of the round.

Defensemen also take years to develop. Most #1 and #2 defenders in the NHL don't reach that mark until they are 25-27 years old. Using those draft picks won't actually benefit the Flyers for years and years.

Plus keep in mind many players play better or worse in different systems. Just because a player is having a mediocre or struggling this season with 1 team doesn't mean he will be the same with another team. For example Keith Ballard was an impressive defender in PHX and FLA but he is god awful in Vancouver. Ehrhoff was decent in San Jose but really took off in the Canucks system. Even offensive players. Simmonds is much better in a Flyers system then the Kings. Briere was better in the Sabres system. Leino in the Flyers system compared to the Sabres and Red Wings.

If the Flyers scout properly one of those average defenders could fit perfectly into what we need and sometimes fixing 1 issue can fix other issues as the pieces fall back in place. Kind of like what happened when the Phillies won the World Series. The bullpen was one of the worst in the MLB but they added Lidge and everyone else moved down a spot and they all played better with lesser responsibility and were statistically one of the best bullpens in the MLB. In an NHL system if they can bring in a player who can handle his responsibility the others can fall in place. Like with Carle. He has been terrible of late but when he played with Pronger he was very productive specifically because Pronger was so defensively sound. Obviously we won't get another Pronger but there are overall average defenders who do play a strong well positioned defense unlike MAB. The combo may not be as good as Pronger - Carle but it certainly won't be as awful as Carle - MAB.
Carle wasnt any better because of Pronger, you just noticed his awful plays less because Pronger covered his ass. You arent going to get a defensemen good enough to make Coburn, Carle, or Mez look anything but average in their own end for a 2nd round pick. It's a waste.

And so what if the picks wont pan out for years? Its better than wasting it altogether for a team with virtually no shot at a cup.

Holmgren and this organization are stupidly knee jerk in just about everything. Few years ago they had to over spend on D. This last off season they just had to get bigger on the wing at any cost. Then they went knee jerk and overspent out the ears on a mediocre goalie. Every year we flush picks down the toilet on mediocre players, and yet we havent developed our own top end defender in my lifetime. Maybe just maybe one of those picks we flushed away on Dennis Gauthier or Modry or Emminger could have turned into that player.

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02-11-2012, 06:39 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
Carle wasnt any better because of Pronger, you just noticed his awful plays less because Pronger covered his ass. You arent going to get a defensemen good enough to make Coburn, Carle, or Mez look anything but average in their own end for a 2nd round pick. It's a waste.

And so what if the picks wont pan out for years? Its better than wasting it altogether for a team with virtually no shot at a cup.

Holmgren and this organization are stupidly knee jerk in just about everything. Few years ago they had to over spend on D. This last off season they just had to get bigger on the wing at any cost. Then they went knee jerk and overspent out the ears on a mediocre goalie. Every year we flush picks down the toilet on mediocre players, and yet we havent developed our own top end defender in my lifetime. Maybe just maybe one of those picks we flushed away on Dennis Gauthier or Modry or Emminger could have turned into that player.
I agree with your knee jerk thing. The Flyers also have the problem where they never flat out suck and get a good draft pick.

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02-11-2012, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
What makes you think that a middle tier defensemen is going to make this a liability free defense? Middle tier defensemen aren't relied on to anchor pairings and be the steady influence you need on a solid cup competing top 2 pairing. That's why they are middle tier defensemen by definition.

I mean people are interested in Andy fricken Sutton. Are you kidding me?
A middle tier defenseman -- by definition -- should not be a liability on the ice. A pairing of Marc-Andre Bourdon and Matt Carle is a liability. A defensive corps that skates two rookies in the playoffs (MAB and Gus) projects as a liability. A pairing of Ryan Parent and Lukas Krajicek is a liability. A liability-free defense isn't a defense that never makes a mistake. It's a defense that doesn't include any pairings that are a liability on the ice. I think the Flyers could achieve that by adding a couple rental players without sacrificing the long-term health of the team.

I don't think we're going to hear anyone this summer saying, "Oh no, we can't fix this Chris Pronger mess because we traded a 3rd round pick for Bryan Allen!" That's why the Flyers brass owes it to Kimmo, Giroux, Simmonds, Hartnell, Read, etc. and all the Flyers who are playing their butts off this year to make the necessary moves to upgrade the defensive depth for this year's playoff push. It might be easy to write off the season from your keyboard, but for the players the battle is just beginning.


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Theres also zero indication that Bryz is close to finding any sort of "groove", so I wouldnt bank on that.
Yes there is. But we don't need yet another thread about that.


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02-11-2012, 06:43 PM
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i am still convinced the flyers are not going to get anyone
You don't know how the Flyers operate then.

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02-11-2012, 06:47 PM
  #71
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Yes, let's get Andy Sutton to take penalties and suspensions to our already brilliant power play.


Greene isn't going anywhere.


Flames still think they're in it, so they won't sell.
NTC aside, you do not think LA Greene for Briere is not a good hockey trade for both teams? LA is starving for goals.

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02-11-2012, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
Carle wasnt any better because of Pronger, you just noticed his awful plays less because Pronger covered his ass. You arent going to get a defensemen good enough to make Coburn, Carle, or Mez look anything but average in their own end for a 2nd round pick. It's a waste.

And so what if the picks wont pan out for years? Its better than wasting it altogether for a team with virtually no shot at a cup.

Holmgren and this organization are stupidly knee jerk in just about everything. Few years ago they had to over spend on D. This last off season they just had to get bigger on the wing at any cost. Then they went knee jerk and overspent out the ears on a mediocre goalie. Every year we flush picks down the toilet on mediocre players, and yet we havent developed our own top end defender in my lifetime. Maybe just maybe one of those picks we flushed away on Dennis Gauthier or Modry or Emminger could have turned into that player.
I think you are being to much of a perfectionist. You make it sound like the only way a team can win is if they have a perfectly flawless roster. The Flyers are the #2 offense in the NHL, this team doesn't need some elite defense. If they can just get an average defense they will still be a dangerous team. (Not to mention what team doesn't have at least 1 glaring flaw?)

I don't understand your logic though. Even if the Flyers keep a 2nd round pick and happen to draft a defensive prospect who does pan out. You realize he will be 18 years old and at best probably not come into his potential until he is around 25 right? That is 7 years average. How many players on the 2012 Flyers do you think will be still on the team in 2019?

That is why I don't understand your logic in this. Developing a defensive prospect would be nice but it isn't going to happen overnight.

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02-11-2012, 06:52 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
A middle tier defenseman -- by definition -- should not be a liability on the ice. A pairing of Marc-Andre Bourdon and Matt Carle is a liability. A defensive corps that skates two rookies in the playoffs (MAB and Gus) projects as a liability. A pairing of Ryan Parent and Lukas Krajicek is a liability. I liability-free defense isn't a defense that never makes a mistake. It's a defense that doesn't include any pairings that are a liability on the ice. I think the Flyers could achieve that by adding a couple rental players without sacrificing the long-term health of the team.

I don't think we're going to hear anyone this summer saying, "Oh no, we can't fix this Chris Pronger mess because we traded a 3rd round pick for Bryan Allen!" That's why the Flyers brass owes it to Kimmo, Giroux, Simmonds, Hartnell, Read, etc. and all the Flyers who are playing their butts off this year to make the necessary moves to upgrade the defensive depth for this year's playoff push. It might be easy to write off the season from your keyboard, but for the players the battle is just beginning.




Yes there is. But we don't need yet another thread about that.
No one on the trade block that could realistically be acquired for a 2-4 round pick is even as good as Mez, Carle, and Coburn. And all 3 of these guys are absolutely liabilities on the ice without an elite partner carrying them.

Trading away all your picks year in and year out for mediocre players that make little impact has a cumulative effect and is stupid to continue to do, especially when your team is not on the edge of winning a cup.

And I could care less if our players are busting their ass. I'm not in the business of throwing away assets to waste on a losing squad for charity of some dudes mental state. Actually improving the team for next year and beyond is all that matters

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02-11-2012, 06:54 PM
  #74
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NTC aside, you do not think LA Greene for Briere is not a good hockey trade for both teams? LA is starving for goals.
I think the Flyers are starving for Briere to start scoring too...

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02-11-2012, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
No one on the trade block that could realistically be acquired for a 2-4 round pick is even as good as Mez, Carle, and Coburn. And all 3 of these guys are absolutely liabilities on the ice without an elite partner carrying them.

Trading away all your picks year in and year out for mediocre players that make little impact has a cumulative effect and is stupid to continue to do, especially when your team is not on the edge of winning a cup.

And I could care less if our players are busting their ass. I'm not in the business of throwing away assets to waste on a losing squad for charity of some dudes mental state. Actually improving the team for next year and beyond is all that matters
Anyone who isn't an elite defender is an "absolute liability" and the Flyers are a losing squad... All right. Unfortunately they can't trade for Chara, Weber, Doughty at the deadline, so the best course of action is just to waive the white flag this year. Classic black-and-white thinking here.

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