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Old
02-11-2012, 07:01 PM
  #76
YuioIklo
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Originally Posted by nitroglycerin View Post
NTC aside, you do not think LA Greene for Briere is not a good hockey trade for both teams? LA is starving for goals.
If we want to compete in the playoffs, trading Briere is the worst thing to do.

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02-11-2012, 07:08 PM
  #77
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Trading a 3rd or something similar for a rental is not "wasting assets". If a 3rd round pick is all that is keeping Homer from acquiring a stud, do you really think he won't find a way to make it work?

Nobody really thinks this team can win it all right now, but nobody thought we could 2 years ago either, and we were right on the brink. This team has so much talent, but it's young, and it's not all gelling right now. I'd have no issues, trading a minor asset for someone like Hal Gill. He would help this team, and it would take very little to get him.

A minor move like that may have kept us from having a real shot at the cup last year. We could have very well gotten Roloson for a 3rd ourselves and who knows what would have happened.

If anyone actually thinks a 3rd rounder, or an AHLer would prevent us from completing a deal for a MAJOR piece, then I don't know what to say. I'd rather save the major splash for when we appear to be one piece away.

Edit: All this, coming from the guy who preaches asset management CONSTANTLY. I hate pissing away assets. HATE IT. But I don't consider making an upgrade, (even a relatively minor one) at very low cost a waste. We're still a good team. Who knows what could happen?

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02-11-2012, 07:13 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by YuioIklo View Post
If we want to compete in the playoffs, trading Briere is the worst thing to do.
Got to give to get. Without Pronger and with two rookies on D we are not going far.

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Originally Posted by Hextall89 View Post
I think the Flyers are starving for Briere to start scoring too...
Arguable it easier to get a scorer at the dead line and we do need D.

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02-11-2012, 07:15 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Trading a 3rd or something similar for a rental is not "wasting assets".
Most agree the deepest NHL draft of recent years has been the 2003 NHL draft. The 3rd round has produced 0 all star players. The most successful and note worthy players taken in that round include Dan Carcillo, Alexandre Picard, Ryan O'Bryne, Clark MacArthur, Ryan Potulny, Stefan Ruzicka, and Zack Stortini.

Anyone who is banking on hitting the jackpot isn't thinking straight.

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02-11-2012, 07:16 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by YuioIklo View Post
If we want to compete in the playoffs, trading Briere is the worst thing to do.
Yes, because Briere just decides that he doesnt want to try all season and then all of a sudden decides he cares and turns into Thor. Just like last playoffs where he threw the team on his back. Oh wait.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Trading a 3rd or something similar for a rental is not "wasting assets". If a 3rd round pick is all that is keeping Homer from acquiring a stud, do you really think he won't find a way to make it work?

Nobody really thinks this team can win it all right now, but nobody thought we could 2 years ago either, and we were right on the brink. This team has so much talent, but it's young, and it's not all gelling right now. I'd have no issues, trading a minor asset for someone like Hal Gill. He would help this team, and it would take very little to get him.

A minor move like that may have kept us from having a real shot at the cup last year. We could have very well gotten Roloson for a 3rd ourselves and who knows what would have happened.

If anyone actually thinks a 3rd rounder, or an AHLer would prevent us from completing a deal for a MAJOR piece, then I don't know what to say.
And thinking like this year in and out is what makes the CUMULATIVE effect into something much more significant. You dont need to throw away picks every year just because, especially when your team is not close to being a cup contender.

And actually last year they did make that type of trade by a 1st and 3rd for versteeg.

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02-11-2012, 07:17 PM
  #81
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Even though Methot is out for 5 weeks... am I the only one who still wants him?

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02-11-2012, 07:21 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
And thinking like this year in and out is what makes the CUMULATIVE effect into something much more significant. You dont need to throw away picks every year just because, especially when your team is not close to being a cup contender.

And actually last year they did make that type of trade by a 1st and 3rd for versteeg.
No they did not make the type of trade I'm suggesting. I do NOT want to trade a first by any means. No way in hell.

I'm saying make the SMALL move. Something the Flyers historically don't do. What you dislike, and what happens year after year is the Flyers trying to make the big splash. I don't want another Adam Oates trade. I want to make a VERY minor move, for a slight upgrade at a position of need. You never know what could happen.

Edit:
There's a difference between trying to make the trade that puts you over the top, and making a trade for a bottom pairing defenseman. There's a difference between trading for Kris Versteeg and Hal Gill. There's a difference between trading a 1st and a 3rd, and just a 3rd.

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02-11-2012, 07:26 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Trading a 3rd or something similar for a rental is not "wasting assets". If a 3rd round pick is all that is keeping Homer from acquiring a stud, do you really think he won't find a way to make it work?

Nobody really thinks this team can win it all right now, but nobody thought we could 2 years ago either, and we were right on the brink. This team has so much talent, but it's young, and it's not all gelling right now. I'd have no issues, trading a minor asset for someone like Hal Gill. He would help this team, and it would take very little to get him.

A minor move like that may have kept us from having a real shot at the cup last year. We could have very well gotten Roloson for a 3rd ourselves and who knows what would have happened.

If anyone actually thinks a 3rd rounder, or an AHLer would prevent us from completing a deal for a MAJOR piece, then I don't know what to say. I'd rather save the major splash for when we appear to be one piece away.

Edit: All this, coming from the guy who preaches asset management CONSTANTLY. I hate pissing away assets. HATE IT. But I don't consider making an upgrade, (even a relatively minor one) at very low cost a waste. We're still a good team. Who knows what could happen?
Maybe we have different definitions of what a stud is, but do you really think Hal Gill, Zanon or any of those other d-men that are in play right now are studs?

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02-11-2012, 07:26 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
No they did not make the type of trade I'm suggesting. I do NOT want to trade a first by any means. No way in hell.

I'm saying make the SMALL move. Something the Flyers historically don't do. What you dislike, and what happens year after year is the Flyers trying to make the big splash. I don't want another Adam Oates trade. I want to make a VERY minor move, for a slight upgrade at a position of need. You never know what could happen.
Like a 3rd rounder for Modry, and Gauthier for two 2nd rounders?

Either way, how exactly is Hal Gill going to suddenly make this D competent? Its not happening

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02-11-2012, 07:29 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by PJStock View Post
Maybe we have different definitions of what a stud is, but do you really think Hal Gill, Zanon or any of those other d-men that are in play right now are studs?
He wasn't talking about Gill, Zanon, Allen, etc. He was saying trading a middle round pick for one of those rentals won't prevent us from getting the "stud" that everyone wants at a later time.

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02-11-2012, 07:30 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by PJStock View Post
Maybe we have different definitions of what a stud is, but do you really think Hal Gill, Zanon or any of those other d-men that are in play right now are studs?
Oh no. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

People were saying they don't want to waste assets that could be used to acquire a stud.

I was trying to say that trading a 3rd rounder for someone like Gil would not prevent Homer from trading for a stud (such as Weber or Suter) if the opportunity was there.

Poile: "Hey Homer. I think I've gotta move Weber now. How about JVR, a 1st, and a a 3rd?"

Homer: "Yea sure, although. I just traded my 3rd in the Gill deal."

Poile: "Oh. That's a shame. Whelp, seeya later."

That's not going to happen.

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02-11-2012, 07:31 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
Like a 3rd rounder for Modry, and Gauthier for two 2nd rounders?

Either way, how exactly is Hal Gill going to suddenly make this D competent? Its not happening
Because a competent rental player or two could replace our less competent rookie defenders. The idea is to replace the weakest links in the chain.

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02-11-2012, 07:32 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Oh no. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

People were saying they don't want to waste assets that could be used to acquire a stud.

I was trying to say that trading a 3rd rounder for someone like Gil would not prevent Homer from trading for a stud (such as Weber or Suter) if the opportunity was there.

Poile: "Hey Homer. I think I've gotta move Weber now. How about JVR, a 1st, and a a 3rd?"

Homer: "Yea sure, although. I just traded my 3rd in the Gill deal."

Poile: "Oh. That's a shame. Whelp, seeya later."

That's not going to happen.
Aha, thanks for the clarification.

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02-11-2012, 07:33 PM
  #89
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I hate Hall Gill, and he is not the answer - alone anyway (we need much more). But at this point, it's almost like it could not get worse... Unless there is classic Philadelphia Flyers over-pay involved.

Give me the most stay-at-home crease-clearing defensemen you can find. Inject him full of steroids, chain him to the net with ten feet of slack, insult his mother all game and let him bury anyone in the blue paint all night long!

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02-11-2012, 07:34 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Oh no. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

People were saying they don't want to waste assets that could be used to acquire a stud.

I was trying to say that trading a 3rd rounder for someone like Gil would not prevent Homer from trading for a stud (such as Weber or Suter) if the opportunity was there.

Poile: "Hey Homer. I think I've gotta move Weber now. How about JVR, a 1st, and a a 3rd?"

Homer: "Yea sure, although. I just traded my 3rd in the Gill deal."

Poile: "Oh. That's a shame. Whelp, seeya later."

That's not going to happen.
I dont think anyone is saying that something like that is going to happen. I'm saying its stupid to waste assets that are unlikely to make an impact.

I mean, would you flush a dollar down the toilet once a week just because it was "only" a dollar? Doesn't make it a smart move.

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02-11-2012, 07:36 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
I dont think anyone is saying that something like that is going to happen. I'm saying its stupid to waste assets that are unlikely to make an impact.

I mean, would you flush a dollar down the toilet once a week just because it was "only" a dollar? Doesn't make it a smart move.
Upgrading your blueline depth isn't like flushing dollars down the toilet. You aren't being rational.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

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02-11-2012, 07:36 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
Like a 3rd rounder for Modry, and Gauthier for two 2nd rounders?

Either way, how exactly is Hal Gill going to suddenly make this D competent? Its not happening
Again, I don't want to trade 2nd rounders. Modry was horrendous but it was an attempt at an upgrade for next to nothing.

Hal Gill sure as hell couldn't hurt the bottom pairing. In theory, he is EXACTLY what our D-corps needs.

What do you want to do? Do you just want to give up on the season now?

I'll say it again, I don't want to make a big trade AT ALL. I want to make the incredibly minor move, for a small boost to our blueline. That is it.

My entire point was that you said save the picks for a #1 or #2. I'm saying, that the lack of a 3rd rounder WOULD NOT prevent Homer from acquiring a #1 or #2 if that were truly a possibility.

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02-11-2012, 07:39 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
Trading a couple 2nd or 3rd round picks for rental players is not going to be the deciding factor in whether or not they can eventually acquire a Chris Pronger replacement.

Edit: And some middle tier defensemen could be very useful for this team. If Bryz finds his groove and the offense remains potent, a liability-free defense could gives this team a shot to compete with anyone.
agreed. We need to get 2 guys that can play defense first hockey.
Kimmo Coburn
Carle X
Mex X
Hell...I would even trade Carle for defensive D-man. We have the most expensive defense yet it is one of the worst in the league

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02-11-2012, 07:39 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
No they did not make the type of trade I'm suggesting. I do NOT want to trade a first by any means. No way in hell.

I'm saying make the SMALL move. Something the Flyers historically don't do. What you dislike, and what happens year after year is the Flyers trying to make the big splash. I don't want another Adam Oates trade. I want to make a VERY minor move, for a slight upgrade at a position of need. You never know what could happen.

Edit:
There's a difference between trying to make the trade that puts you over the top, and making a trade for a bottom pairing defenseman. There's a difference between trading for Kris Versteeg and Hal Gill. There's a difference between trading a 1st and a 3rd, and just a 3rd.

I would also argue that Versteeg was not brought in to be a rental player, and in hindsight, it appears that the mistake was not giving up those draft picks for him, but giving up on him too soon and deciding that he couldn't have a role on the team after Mike Richards was traded.

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02-11-2012, 07:42 PM
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Hell, I would love to add Sutton, Kubina and Gill!!! Maybe Ottaw would do a Shelley for Carkner deal. At least he brings some sandpaper!! Dress 7 d-men. We have lots of F that would love more ice time!!

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02-11-2012, 07:45 PM
  #96
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Like I aid earlier...that mofo can clear the crease. And is a guy opposing forwards need to look over their shoulder for. We need a dman like that to be physical and help shut teams down. He would be a good option.
Agreed. No one fears coming across our blueline witheir head down!

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02-11-2012, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
I dont think anyone is saying that something like that is going to happen. I'm saying its stupid to waste assets that are unlikely to make an impact.

I mean, would you flush a dollar down the toilet once a week just because it was "only" a dollar? Doesn't make it a smart move.
Your analogy doesn't fit because that's not what I'm suggesting. There is nothing to be gained from flushing a dollar.

Hal Gill SHOULD be better than MAB or Gus. Therefore he SHOULD improve this team. That is what you'd be buying. That is why I don't want to pay much for it.

The rash, irresponsible, reckless, and wasteful move would be trading major assets and go "all-in"; because it certainly doesn't seem like we can take NYR or Boston in our current state. But it's not like we're sitting in the 8th seed right now with a bunch of grinders that happen to be having career years. We're in 4th for god's sake. We have offensive talent coming out of our butts. We have talent at goaltender if it ever decides it wants to show up. We have 4 defenseman who we've all seen play very well at times, but right now they are all lost (except for Kimmo). We are a good team, we just have a few holes. So I say, go ahead, make the minor move.

Hell, I'm not even one of the people clamoring to get MULTIPLE rentals. I am saying make ONE, minor move, for next to nothing, to improve this team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
Upgrading your blueline depth isn't like flushing dollars down the toilet. You aren't being rational.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
Exactly.

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02-11-2012, 07:58 PM
  #98
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Thanks.

Don't think I've seen his name tossed around.

He is a fairly large, physical D.

Thoughts?
Very large, not very physical. Over 40 less hits than Meszaros. If he recall, he makes his fair share of mistakes too. Only plus side I can think of is his RH shot.

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02-11-2012, 08:01 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
Like a 3rd rounder for Modry, and Gauthier for two 2nd rounders?

Either way, how exactly is Hal Gill going to suddenly make this D competent? Its not happening
With these hindsight trades I feel you should list the actual players drafted.

Don't get me wrong Modry sucked but they got Geordie Wudrick. A player who will likely neven even skate on NHL ice.

The Gauthier trade was a little worse for us but still Shawn Matthias isn't looking like anything special. Cory Emmerton isn't much of a prospect. When you look at the picks around those guys the only player that was worth while was Lucic everyone else is pretty bad looking and there was nothing to imply we would have taken Lucic. We drafted Nodl shortly before Lucic and Bodrov a defender shortly after.

Occasionally the Flyers gave up a pick that ended up being a good player or at least close to a good player but a lot of those draft picks never panned out anyway.

Most of the time those mid to late round pick trades don't hurt a team because those rounds are so watered down and erratic.

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02-11-2012, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Your analogy doesn't fit because that's not what I'm suggesting. There is nothing to be gained from flushing a dollar.

Hal Gill SHOULD be better than MAB or Gus. Therefore he SHOULD improve this team. That is what you'd be buying. That is why I don't want to pay much for it.

The rash, irresponsible, reckless, and wasteful move would be trading major assets and go "all-in"; because it certainly doesn't seem like we can take NYR or Boston in our current state. But it's not like we're sitting in the 8th seed right now with a bunch of grinders that happen to be having career years. We're in 4th for god's sake. We have offensive talent coming out of our butts. We have talent at goaltender if it ever decides it wants to show up. We have 4 defenseman who we've all seen play very well at times, but right now they are all lost (except for Kimmo). We are a good team, we just have a few holes. So I say, go ahead, make the minor move.

Hell, I'm not even one of the people clamoring to get MULTIPLE rentals. I am saying make ONE, minor move, for next to nothing, to improve this team.



Exactly.
I do think that 2 moves are needed if we want a chance to compete. Gus and Bourdon are just not ready this year. And if I could, I would add a Grossman as 1 of the moves and try and sign him to a cap friendly contract. And remember everyone: when we made the plaoffs on the last day of the regular season, getting to the SCF was not expected. Nor was Wash and Pitt losing to MTL. Hell, last year Bos went to game 7 in 3 of their series'. And with Crosby questionable, next year could be a lot harder with him possibly back. Look for a #1 first, but if not, at least do something to TRY and get better.

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