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Mike Richter or Henrik Lundqvist

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Mike Richter 83 30.97%
Henrik Lundqvist 185 69.03%
Voters: 268. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-11-2012, 06:24 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
He didn't have the longevity and was never a consensus top 3 goalie in the league. Good player, but he wasn't a superstar. When I think of superstar goalies, I think of Belfour, Brodeur, Hasek, etc.
Belfour, Hasek, Brodeur and Roy were all better than Henrik...

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02-11-2012, 06:49 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
Belfour, Hasek, Brodeur and Roy were all better than Henrik...
Not much shame in that. Still a chance that he can be included in that group.

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02-11-2012, 07:12 PM
  #278
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Richter has created his legacy... now its time for Lundqvist to do so. Do not get me wrong, he has proven himself one of the best and continues to do so. Now all im asking for is for him 2 continue doing it.

Above all the stats, the most that looks up 2 me is his Stanley CUp and what that did for the team. Hank has to win 1, above any and all excuses

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02-11-2012, 08:17 PM
  #279
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Not much shame in that. Still a chance that he can be included in that group.
Maybe Belfour.

No way he touches the other 3.

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02-11-2012, 08:40 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
Maybe Belfour.

No way he touches the other 3.
You're probably right. Obviously I havent seen alot of the older goalies play (Plante, Sawchuk, Esposito, even Fuhr in his prime) but I consider Roy and Hasek the 2 best goalies ever. Brodeur is up there but I cant bring myself to put him in that category.

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02-11-2012, 08:40 PM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
Maybe Belfour.

No way he touches the other 3.
Sorry, but that's ridiculous. Today Hank is the most dominant goalie in the world. He's been a consensus top 3-5 goalie since his first season, and he's only just now entering his prime! It's not like the aforementioned goalies flat out dominated the league every season of their careers. Hell, their careers overlapped to a large extent.

If the Rangers keep icing a decent team in front of him over the next decade, there's no reason to think that he won't flirt with Hasek's, Roy's and even Marty's records and accomplishments.

The disrespect you're showing Hank in this thread is astounding.

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02-11-2012, 09:05 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Shadowrunner View Post
Sorry, but that's ridiculous. Today Hank is the most dominant goalie in the world. He's been a consensus top 3-5 goalie since his first season, and he's only just now entering his prime! It's not like the aforementioned goalies flat out dominated the league every season of their careers. Hell, their careers overlapped to a large extent.

If the Rangers keep icing a decent team in front of him over the next decade, there's no reason to think that he won't flirt with Hasek's, Roy's and even Marty's records and accomplishments.

The disrespect you're showing Hank in this thread is astounding.
I dont think its disrespect for Hank. Patrick Roy IMO is the best goalie ever. Hank may be able to catch him in wins but you have to take into account that he will have a lot of wins from the shootout. If you take out SO wins I dont think he comes close. Even with SO wins Hank would have to play another 9 years winning 35 games a season. Could happen. Obviously you cant compare GAA and Save % because its 2 different era's. Hasek was another one that is just on another level. He had some horrible teams in front of him and single handedly stole not only games for them but whole seasons. That guy was putting up Hank numbers in an era when there was a lot more scoring.

Honestly its kind of like saying Malkin will never be considered as good as Gretzky. Doesnt mean he isnt great or wont be one of the all time greats.

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02-11-2012, 09:39 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Shadowrunner View Post
Sorry, but that's ridiculous. Today Hank is the most dominant goalie in the world. He's been a consensus top 3-5 goalie since his first season, and he's only just now entering his prime! It's not like the aforementioned goalies flat out dominated the league every season of their careers. Hell, their careers overlapped to a large extent.

If the Rangers keep icing a decent team in front of him over the next decade, there's no reason to think that he won't flirt with Hasek's, Roy's and even Marty's records and accomplishments.

The disrespect you're showing Hank in this thread is astounding.


Hasek's first 7 seasons -- 5 Vezinas, 2 Harts, 5 1st All NHL's, 1 SCF
Roy's first 7 seasons -- 3 Vezinas, 1 Conn Smythe, 3 1st/2 2nd All NHL, 1 Cup, 2 SCF
Brodeur's first 7 seasons -- 1 Calder, 2 2nd All NHL, 2 Cups
Henrik first 7 seasons -- ????????

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02-11-2012, 09:44 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post


Hasek's first 7 seasons -- 5 Vezinas, 2 Harts, 5 1st All NHL's, 1 SCF
Roy's first 7 seasons -- 3 Vezinas, 1 Conn Smythe, 3 1st/2 2nd All NHL, 1 Cup, 2 SCF
Brodeur's first 7 seasons -- 1 Calder, 2 2nd All NHL, 2 Cups
Henrik first 7 seasons -- ????????
If theres one thing that Roy and Hasek did its dominate the league every year. (still cant bring myself to put Brodeur up there with those 2)

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02-11-2012, 10:08 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by JoeRangers View Post
If theres one thing that Roy and Hasek did its dominate the league every year. (still cant bring myself to put Brodeur up there with those 2)
You misunderstood me. Yes, all three goalies were dominant, but one wasn't on a whole other level over the other two. Best goalies of their generation, no argument there. But to say that Hank has no shot at challenging their records is selling him short.

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02-11-2012, 10:14 PM
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post


Hasek's first 7 seasons -- 5 Vezinas, 2 Harts, 5 1st All NHL's, 1 SCF
Roy's first 7 seasons -- 3 Vezinas, 1 Conn Smythe, 3 1st/2 2nd All NHL, 1 Cup, 2 SCF
Brodeur's first 7 seasons -- 1 Calder, 2 2nd All NHL, 2 Cups
Henrik first 7 seasons -- ????????
First of all, keep playoff accomplishments out of this. Playoff success is primarily a team accomplishment and so is playoff failure, unless your name is Roberto Luongo.

Henrik first 7 seasons -- 3 Vezina nominations, and a front-runner for Vezina in his now 7th season, Olympic gold and several (forget how many) all-star appearances. But the point isn't that he has already accomplished as much as they did. The point is that, when all is said and done, he has a legitimate shot at being included in their company as one of the most dominant goalies of his generation.

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02-11-2012, 10:17 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by Shadowrunner View Post
You misunderstood me. Yes, all three goalies were dominant, but one wasn't on a whole other level over the other two. Best goalies of their generation, no argument there. But to say that Hank has no shot at challenging their records is selling him short.
They werent on another level over the others but they were on another level over everyone else. I have no problem saying that Hank has absolutely no shot at challenging Brodeur's records and believe me nothing would make me happier than if he did. Could definitely end with better stats than Hasek but I still think Hasek was better. He will end with better GAA and save % than Roy and its possible to catch him in wins but again I think Roy is better.

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02-11-2012, 10:19 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Shadowrunner View Post
First of all, keep playoff accomplishments out of this. Playoff success is primarily a team accomplishment and so is playoff failure, unless your name is Roberto Luongo.

Henrik first 7 seasons -- 3 Vezina nominations, and a front-runner for Vezina in his now 7th season, Olympic gold and several (forget how many) all-star appearances. But the point isn't that he has already accomplished as much as they did. The point is that, when all is said and done, he has a legitimate shot at being included in their company as one of the most dominant goalies of his generation.
Well in all fairness if you arent going to count playoff accomplishments than you cant count the Olympic gold.

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02-11-2012, 10:29 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by JoeRangers View Post
Well in all fairness if you arent going to count playoff accomplishments than you cant count the Olympic gold.
I would actually argue that for any non-Canadian goalie, Olympic achievements may actually be more representative of individual excellence than SC playoff success.

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02-11-2012, 10:32 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Shadowrunner View Post
First of all, keep playoff accomplishments out of this. Playoff success is primarily a team accomplishment and so is playoff failure, unless your name is Roberto Luongo.

Henrik first 7 seasons -- 3 Vezina nominations, and a front-runner for Vezina in his now 7th season, Olympic gold and several (forget how many) all-star appearances. But the point isn't that he has already accomplished as much as they did. The point is that, when all is said and done, he has a legitimate shot at being included in their company as one of the most dominant goalies of his generation.
Come on man, just stop. Do I really need to explain this to you?

1) Saying playoff accomplishments mean nothing in a goalie debate is pure garbage. It's only said by fans of goalies who haven't done jack in the postseason. Goalies like Roy, Hasek and Broduer built their reputations on postseason success. Roy won the Conn Smythe as a friggin rookie.

2) Winning Harts and Vezinas trumps simply getting nominated.

3) There's a huge difference between All Star Game selections and Postseason All Star Team selections. Being fan voted or fantasy drafted into a mid-season exhibition game is nice and fun (I'm sure), but being selected by an over 300-person media for overall season excellence is what the educated hockey community uses as a barometer for greatness.

4) GM's vote for Vezinas. The Media votes Hart, Pearson, Conn Smythe and 1st/2nd all star teams. Until he wins a Vezina or gets nominated to a postseason all star team, he can't be considered the best of his generation.

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02-11-2012, 11:01 PM
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
Come on man, just stop. Do I really need to explain this to you?

1) Saying playoff accomplishments mean nothing in a goalie debate is pure garbage. It's only said by fans of goalies who haven't done jack in the postseason. Goalies like Roy, Hasek and Broduer built their reputations on postseason success. Roy won the Conn Smythe as a friggin rookie.

2) Winning Harts and Vezinas trumps simply getting nominated.

3) There's a huge difference between All Star Game selections and Postseason All Star Team selections. Being fan voted or fantasy drafted into a mid-season exhibition game is nice and fun (I'm sure), but being selected by an over 300-person media for overall season excellence is what the educated hockey community uses as a barometer for greatness.

4) GM's vote for Vezinas. The Media votes Hart, Pearson, Conn Smythe and 1st/2nd all star teams. Until he wins a Vezina or gets nominated to a postseason all star team, he can't be considered the best of his generation.
I guess you do, because some of those arguments are seriously flawed.

1. No, it doesn't mean "nothing," but it certainly isn't an accurate barometer of goalie greatness. Hasek was an absolute beast with Buffalo and MUCH more dominant than he was when he finally won the Cup with the Wings. Friggin' Antti Niemi is a SC winning goaltender -- does that put him on par with Roy and Hasek? And do you really think Hank wouldn't have won at least one cup by now if he were playing for Pittsburgh, Detroit, Vancouver or even San Jose? Moral of the story -- you can't judge playoff achievements in a vacuum.

2. Absolutely agree. My point is that Hank is only now entering his prime and finally has a good team in front of him. Expecting him to compete for (and win) 3-5 Vezinas over the next decade is not unrealistic.

3. Too lazy to look up head-to-head comparisons on this, but it hardly seems significant to this discussion.

4. Absolutely true. Hank's accomplishments to date are very impressive but nowhere near those of Roy or Hasek, and to a lesser extent Brodeur. My point is that, looking at his body of work thus far, it's entirely possible that he WILL have similar success.

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02-11-2012, 11:25 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Shadowrunner View Post
I guess you do, because some of those arguments are seriously flawed.

1. No, it doesn't mean "nothing," but it certainly isn't an accurate barometer of goalie greatness. Hasek was an absolute beast with Buffalo and MUCH more dominant than he was when he finally won the Cup with the Wings. Friggin' Antti Niemi is a SC winning goaltender -- does that put him on par with Roy and Hasek? And do you really think Hank wouldn't have won at least one cup by now if he were playing for Pittsburgh, Detroit, Vancouver or even San Jose? Moral of the story -- you can't judge playoff achievements in a vacuum.

2. Absolutely agree. My point is that Hank is only now entering his prime and finally has a good team in front of him. Expecting him to compete for (and win) 3-5 Vezinas over the next decade is not unrealistic.

3. Too lazy to look up head-to-head comparisons on this, but it hardly seems significant to this discussion.

4. Absolutely true. Hank's accomplishments to date are very impressive but nowhere near those of Roy or Hasek, and to a lesser extent Brodeur. My point is that, looking at his body of work thus far, it's entirely possible that he WILL have similar success.
1) I never said the goalies had to win the Cup. People clearly acknowledge what Hasek did in 1999 is easily one of the greatest overall goaltending performances in NHL history. What Brodeur did as a rookie in 1994 is also impressive. Hank has no postseason resume worth mentioning.

The reason why people put Brodeur, Roy and Hasek on a pedestal is because they were able to validate their regular season dominance with heroic/historic postseasons. Hernrik hasn't validated anything. As of now, he's an elite regular season goalie. End of story.

The idea that you want to toss out the trio's postseason accomplishments to make Hank look better is a joke.

2) Winning Vezinas in his current era wont put him in their category. He will also need postseason success. Thats why Dan Marino keeps falling deeper and deeper down the all-time QB list.


3)
Quote:
Olympic gold and several (forget how many) all-star appearances
You brought it up first. You're right. It's totally irrelevant when trying to lump Henrik together with Hasek, Belfour, Roy and Brodeur.


4) It's possible. Anything is possible. The probability is unlikely, but who knows. The Red Sox won two WS in 4 seasons so I guess anything is possible.

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02-11-2012, 11:43 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
1) I never said the goalies had to win the Cup. People clearly acknowledge what Hasek did in 1999 is easily one of the greatest overall goaltending performances in NHL history. What Brodeur did as a rookie in 1994 is also impressive. Hank has no postseason resume worth mentioning.

The reason why people put Brodeur, Roy and Hasek on a pedestal is because they were able to validate their regular season dominance with heroic/historic postseasons. Hernrik hasn't validated anything. As of now, he's an elite regular season goalie. End of story.

The idea that you want to toss out the trio's postseason accomplishments to make Hank look better is a joke.

2) Winning Vezinas in his current era wont put him in their category. He will also need postseason success. Thats why Dan Marino keeps falling deeper and deeper down the all-time QB list.


3)

You brought it up first. You're right. It's totally irrelevant when trying to lump Henrik together with Hasek, Belfour, Roy and Brodeur.


4) It's possible. Anything is possible. The probability is unlikely, but who knows. The Red Sox won two WS in 4 seasons so I guess anything is possible.
I gotta say I kind of see both sides of this argument and agree to a certain extent with both sides. Obviously I dont think winning a Stanley Cup automatically makes you better than someone that hasnt. (I would certainly say that Hank is a better goalie than Antii Niemi or M.A. Fleury for example). I also think to be considered one of the best goalies ever you need to have won a Cup or two. Look at Curtis Joseph, he would probably be mentioned right along with those 4 but never won a Cup. Not saying he isnt an alltime great but he loses a little by not having that Cup win

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02-12-2012, 12:03 AM
  #294
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Playoff accomplishments definitely mean something. But it's not everything. Is Dan Marino still not one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time even though he doesn't have a ring?

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02-12-2012, 12:58 AM
  #295
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Playoff accomplishments definitely mean something. But it's not everything. Is Dan Marino still not one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time even though he doesn't have a ring?
Yes, but even Marino got to a Super Bowl....

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02-12-2012, 07:19 AM
  #296
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I hope you aren't seriously comparing this team to the 94 team, which had 6 Hall of Fame caliber players on it.
Not sure having 6 Hall of fame caliber players really measures the quality of talent playing on those teams. How many of those "caliber" Hall of Famers were in their prime? or at the tail end of their careers, still good players but hardly the type that carried a team.

These recent Ranger teams are young and get better every year. I think the defensive depth Hank has had the last few years surpasses the defense the Richter teams enjoyed. Let's not also forget the "team defense" is so much better in more recent years.

Are you telling me that players like Staal, Girardi, Gaborik, Richards, Callahan, Stepan ( as he improves) aren't going to have career numbers to make them a consideration when their careers are complete?

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02-12-2012, 08:24 AM
  #297
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Henrik seems like the better athlete, but I always liked Richter's more aggressive play style. In reality you cant go wrong. Slight edge to the King.

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02-12-2012, 08:47 AM
  #298
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Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post


Hasek's first 7 seasons -- 5 Vezinas, 2 Harts, 5 1st All NHL's, 1 SCF
Roy's first 7 seasons -- 3 Vezinas, 1 Conn Smythe, 3 1st/2 2nd All NHL, 1 Cup, 2 SCF
Brodeur's first 7 seasons -- 1 Calder, 2 2nd All NHL, 2 Cups
Henrik first 7 seasons -- ????????

I agree about Hasek & Roy - but Brodeur was on some teams that were absolutely stacked in his first 7 years. Look at some of the names he had playing on defense. Combine that with the forwards on the team and the strategy the team employed; Brodeur had a much better situation in his first 7 years.

Lundquist, in terms of actual in-game performance, is very close with where Brodeur was during those years. The accolades don't reflect it (due in large part to the differences in players they had surrounding them), but their performance levels are very similar.

Roy and Hasek are a big notch above even Brodeur IMO. Even between those two, Hasek was the most dominant goalie I've ever seen.

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02-12-2012, 10:20 AM
  #299
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Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
Come on man, just stop. Do I really need to explain this to you?

1) Saying playoff accomplishments mean nothing in a goalie debate is pure garbage. It's only said by fans of goalies who haven't done jack in the postseason. Goalies like Roy, Hasek and Broduer built their reputations on postseason success. Roy won the Conn Smythe as a friggin rookie......
1) Hasek is light years beter than any goalie I ever saw.

2) If he hadn't gone to Detroit he would have never won a Cup. The fact that he won that Cup did not enhance his reputation, at least not for people who paid attention to his entire body of work.

As to where Lundqvist ranks now, it's impossible to say because he is mid-career.

I have no doubt that he is a better goaltender than Richter was, however. Richter was a very good goaltender, but without having the best team in front of him, he doesn't win. The same can be said for almost all goaltenders, however. In fact, Richter was the 2nd best goalie in the Finals that he won.

The weakest part of Lundqvist's game is his puck-handling. Yet, his skills with the puck dwarf the puck-handling skills that Richter displayed. Richter caused more faceoffs in his own end than perhaps any regular NHL goaltender of the last 20 years.

Richter was good, even very good, but never great.

Hasek, Brodeur, and Roy were great. I believe that Lundqvist could join that elite group one day. Doesn't mean he will, but I think he has a shot at it.

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02-12-2012, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
1) 2) Winning Vezinas in his current era wont put him in their category. He will also need postseason success. Thats why Dan Marino keeps falling deeper and deeper down the all-time QB list.
What!? Which lists have Marino fallen down on? I want to meet the football experts that have downsized him.

The guy was flat-out great. That he never played with great teams is in no way his fault.

This is the same ridiculous argument where people used to tell me that Ray Bourque wasn't great before he won with Colorado. He is no greater because he was on that Cup winner.

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