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Old
02-13-2012, 11:01 AM
  #51
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I'd deal Carle, that's about it. Draft some Dmen this year, and give Suter all we got this offseason and this team should have no problem winning a cup in the future.

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02-13-2012, 11:13 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Tim Tebow View Post
Percentages say the cup winner and cup finals will involve teams that aren't expected to be the best during the season.
Ok.. I do not look at hockey in terms of percentages you probably watched Moneyball or something.

What I do know is how Boston, NY Rangers and more or less healthy Pittsburgh will play and how they are playing now. They are matured playoff ready solid teams that play very good hockey in all 3 zones with basically elite goaltending.

I also know how Van, Hawks and Wings will play in the West. Any of those 6 will be in finals.

If you think Flyers are a dark horse please.. Tell me why.

This is not Olympics when it's all about one game. This is 7 games of tough hockey.

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02-13-2012, 11:14 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
Nick Grossman would do this team wonders. Also we need someone who can just get a shot from the point on the damn net!
I do not mind a trade for Nick Grosman.

So we are Nick Grossman away from becoming a good team?

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02-13-2012, 11:18 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by nitroglycerin View Post
I do not mind a trade for Nick Grosman.

So we are Nick Grossman away from becoming a good team?
We already are a good team? Like that Tim Tebow guy was saying anyone selling this team off is crazy. We have had a bad couple of weeks and this fan base is doom and gloom. Nick Grossman would definitely help sure up a nasty player in front of our net. We lack muscle there. A fourth line center would also be nice to add as well. Someone who is responsible in his own zone and win draws. Why would we blow the team up a year after remaking the whole thing? That kind of stuff gets GM's fired.

Also aside from a few forwards on this team, the flyers are extremely young up front. They will keep learning the system and from their mistakes and make them better. This team has a bright future and present. They need to tweak a few things that's it. If Carle could be moved for good value I would do it in a heartbeat too. I hope Chicago comes calling and offers a young dman back(Nick Leddy). I don't listen to the fans how they say Nick Leddy is untouchable either, he could be moved for the right player I feel. He ha also really struggled recently.

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Old
02-13-2012, 11:20 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by nitroglycerin View Post
I do not mind a trade for Nick Grosman.

So we are Nick Grossman away from becoming a good team?
The Flyers are a good team. They are fourth in the East (third in points) and second in the league in scoring. I guess the Pens should throw in the towel too and sell of their UFAs? Blues? Kings? No chance. Getting better players certainly wouldn't help any of those teams either. Only thing to do is look to next year in a situation like this.

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02-13-2012, 11:22 AM
  #56
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Not at all. You don't really need a top notch farm team when your NHL team is filled with young talent. If our team was just old vets and we were struggling here, then I'd be very concerned with the state of the Phantoms. But when we have a roster where only five players are over thirty and the best players on our team (with the exception of Timonen) are under 25, I don't think its a big deal if MAB and GUS are the best players the Phantoms have to offer. Show me an NHL team with as many young talented players as the Flyers that also has a stocked farm system. You won't find it because it doesn't exist.



So we are in a rebuilding mode because we are in fourth place and stocked with youth? You really think a second round pick for Matt Carle is going to help this team more than trading a second round pick for a defender? Get real, man. When did draft picks become more valuable than actual NHL players?



Oh ok. You're right. Thanks. Borderline NHL prospects never get traded.
I see points you are trying to make. So what we do have farm, so what we do not have picks. So what we are this and that..So what were are too young. Let's make a trade for whoever. Let's do this and that..

Guess what? Once again. We do not have extra picks or prospects to trade. We do not have picks or players to trade compare to Boston, NYRangers and Pens. They do. We do not. We will not be the only team that will try to get better. There will be bidding wars. We cannot get involved in bidding wars because our prospect pool and picks are too damn thin.. I know, I know.. You will say so what..
nonexisting and once agian we need to draft at leats twice in 5-6 years.

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02-13-2012, 11:23 AM
  #57
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i agree with flyers fan9180. I say go after Gill. Anything can happen in the playoffs if Jagr and Briere get hot this team could make a run.

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Old
02-13-2012, 11:26 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
The Flyers are a good team. They are fourth in the East (third in points) and second in the league in scoring. I guess the Pens should throw in the towel too and sell of their UFAs? Blues? Kings? No chance. Getting better players certainly wouldn't help any of those teams either. Only thing to do is look to next year in a situation like this.
Just scoring.. does not win you championships. We are not arguing who is the best scoring team in the league.

We suck at playing d-sive hockey, our goaltending is average and so is our D, our special teams are up and down and finally we are too young. Our captain and difference makes is out for a season and playoffs.

I know, I know.. We are #4 team in the East. Let's trade for this and that player. I got you.

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02-13-2012, 11:29 AM
  #59
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Before comparing your self to Blues, LA or Pens know that their farm and prospect pull is a lot better than ours.

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02-13-2012, 11:31 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by nitroglycerin View Post
I see points you are trying to make. So what we do have farm, so what we do not have picks. So what we are this and that..So what were are too young. Let's make a trade for whoever. Let's do this and that..

Guess what? Once again. We do not have extra picks or prospects to trade. We do not have picks or players to trade compare to Boston, NYRangers and Pens. They do. We do not. We will not be the only team that will try to get better. There will be bidding wars. We cannot get involved in bidding wars because our prospect pool and picks are too damn thin.. I know, I know.. You will say so what..
nonexisting and once agian we need to draft at leats twice in 5-6 years.
What are you talking about? We have I think all our picks (plus at least one extra second, maybe two). We have prospects that are not "needed" by this team. We can make a couple trades to better this team. Like I said form the beginning, MAB or Gus and a pick is not going to get the Flyers Shea Weber, but I'm sure Homer can find an upgrade for something along those lines. If he can't, then you work from there. Maybe two picks. Maybe two prospects. Who knows. I love that trying to improve on a third place team is ridiculous, but saying, "Aw shucks the Bruins are better let's just forget about it" is the way to go.

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02-13-2012, 11:35 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by nitroglycerin View Post
Just scoring.. does not win you championships. We are not arguing who is the best scoring team in the league.

We suck at playing d-sive hockey, our goaltending is average and so is our D, our special teams are up and down and finally we are too young. Our captain and difference makes is out for a season and playoffs.

I know, I know.. We are #4 team in the East. Let's trade for this and that player. I got you.
So when do you make a trade to better the team?

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Originally Posted by nitroglycerin View Post
Before comparing your self to Blues, LA or Pens know that their farm and prospect pull is a lot better than ours.
So it is ok for them to trade their prospects because they are better? I would think that is more of a reason for them to hold on to their prospects and stand pat. I'm not sure I follow you on this.

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02-13-2012, 11:41 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
What are you talking about? We have I think all our picks (plus at least one extra second, maybe two). We have prospects that are not "needed" by this team. We can make a couple trades to better this team. Like I said form the beginning, MAB or Gus and a pick is not going to get the Flyers Shea Weber, but I'm sure Homer can find an upgrade for something along those lines. If he can't, then you work from there. Maybe two picks. Maybe two prospects. Who knows. I love that trying to improve on a third place team is ridiculous, but saying, "Aw shucks the Bruins are better let's just forget about it" is the way to go.
You still do not know what I am talking about? I am talking about not trading our picks at the dead line or trading our vets to rebuild. I am talking about not competing in bidding wars to rent UFA players because we can not really afford it.

MAB or Gus have no real VALUE on UFA market. NONE! I know you think they are good or maybe good in the future. We would be very lucky if they will be top 6 d-men in this league. In the past we traded much better players for a lot lesss.

Smart thing to do this season is to stay put as in do not make trades or trying to sell our veterans.

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02-13-2012, 11:43 AM
  #63
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Sellers, move out carle for a solid prospect or a pick, I would love first but that seems high. I hope to get JVR back right away and deal him to Nashville straight up for Blum, combined JVR and Carle money help get Suter or Weber. If the price is right Jagr is gone as well. We aren't going to beat Boston or the rags this year and we are just close to pitts without crosby, I say look at all options that dont include G, Coots, Schenn and Read and this years 1st. We make good trade partners with so many teams, but like Lavi said in 24/7 if your clear goal at the beginning of the year isn't to win the cup you are selling your team short.

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Old
02-13-2012, 11:49 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
So it is ok for them to trade their prospects because they are better? I would think that is more of a reason for them to hold on to their prospects and stand pat. I'm not sure I follow you on this.
I can see that.

I am not sure what Blues, Pens and Kings plans are but it is ok for them to be competitive on UFA market because their farm team and prospect pool is not destroyed. Like ours. Still with me?

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02-13-2012, 11:50 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitroglycerin View Post
You still do not know what I am talking about? I am talking about not trading our picks at the dead line or trading our vets to rebuild. I am talking about not competing in bidding wars to rent UFA players because we can not really afford it.

MAB or Gus have no real VALUE on UFA market. NONE! I know you think they are good or maybe good in the future. We would be very lucky if they will be top 6 d-men in this league. In the past we traded much better players for a lot lesss.

Smart thing to do this season is to stay put as in do not make trades or trying to sell our veterans.
I think that is a bad course of action. Trading the likes of MAB and Gus is a possibility. Not because they are studs (in fact I think both are overrated on here like most players on this team) but because they are the types of players that non-contenders would be interested in. I don't know who the potential trading partners are, but teams not in contention and in smaller markets generally like cheap players that can pass for NHLers. If Gus and MAB can play for the Flyers, they can surely play for the Stars, Blue Jackets, Canes, Islanders, Ducks, etc. Those teams aren't going to trade their top prospects or team captains for these players, but I would bet they would trade them for a player with an expiring contract who is not likely to return. Throw in a pick and it makes it all the more tempting. I don't see how throwing in the towel is a better option than that.

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02-13-2012, 11:53 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by nitroglycerin View Post
I can see that.

I am not sure what Blues, Pens and Kings plans are but it is ok for them to be competitive on UFA market because their farm team and prospect pool is not destroyed. Like ours. Still with me?
Ok I am now. However, as I've said, when your NHL team is as talented and as young as the Flyers, you don't need to have the best prospects. It would be nice, obviously, but it is not a necessity. The Flyers need young defensemen. That is pretty much it. Their offense is at the tops of the league. Do you really think whoever they get in the draft next year with a pick in the 20s is going to be better than let's say Grossman? And if so, is he going to be better in enough time to play with the current makeup of this team? I'd rather get a guy like Grossman now than hope and pray that the guy we do get with that pick turns out to be an NHL player in enough time that this team looks the way it does now.

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02-13-2012, 12:07 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Ok I am now. However, as I've said, when your NHL team is as talented and as young as the Flyers, you don't need to have the best prospects. It would be nice, obviously, but it is not a necessity. The Flyers need young defensemen. That is pretty much it. Their offense is at the tops of the league. Do you really think whoever they get in the draft next year with a pick in the 20s is going to be better than let's say Grossman? And if so, is he going to be better in enough time to play with the current makeup of this team? I'd rather get a guy like Grossman now than hope and pray that the guy we do get with that pick turns out to be an NHL player in enough time that this team looks the way it does now.
No one is arguing about our talent level upfront, I doubt that our forwards will compensate for our D and goaltending shortcomings especially in playoffs.

No one will give you #1 or potential #1 d-men for peanuts. Even picking up Grossman won't solve our multiple problems but I am ok with getting him. This is the only trade that would be worth making.
I want Flyers to draft at least twice in 1st two rounds. If Suter is available before the draft obviously we must look into it. Not trading 3rd for Gill or things of that nature. Screw that plan.

Another plan is to clean our house. I am talking Jagr, Timonen and Carle. Assuming Briere won't waive his NTC.

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02-13-2012, 12:10 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by nitroglycerin View Post
Ok.. I do not look at hockey in terms of percentages you probably watched Moneyball or something.

What I do know is how Boston, NY Rangers and more or less healthy Pittsburgh will play and how they are playing now. They are matured playoff ready solid teams that play very good hockey in all 3 zones with basically elite goaltending.

I also know how Van, Hawks and Wings will play in the West. Any of those 6 will be in finals.

If you think Flyers are a dark horse please.. Tell me why.

This is not Olympics when it's all about one game. This is 7 games of tough hockey.
Nope. It's called common sense and facts used to back up a solid point.

My Point: You can't predict the future
Yours: Oh yes I can!

Who sounds crazier?


hahaha. The Hawks? You will call the Flyers dead but then praise the Hawks? How deranged can one be? The Hawks have won 2 games in there last 10 and they're defense is struggling far worse then ours and they are far closer to missing the playoffs then we are. Yet somehow the Hawks are still a favorite while the Flyers are dead?

The Bruins are playing .500 hockey in the last 10.

In you're world everything that is true in the NHL today will not change over the next 25 games or so?
That is very logical buddy



2009 Stanley Cup Champions

PITTSBURGH PENGUINS


This is a screenshot I took earlier that season.


FACT: February 15, 2009, the struggling Pittsburgh Penguins fired coach Michel Therrien and hired Dan Bylsma as the team considered selling.

FACT: This team won the Stanley Cup that season after they decided not to sell and became buyers.

FACT: No team holding a playoff spot and struggling at 56 games in the season is dead.


Last edited by Tim Tebow: 02-13-2012 at 12:17 PM.
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Old
02-13-2012, 12:21 PM
  #69
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Nope. It's called common sense and facts used to back up a solid point.

My Point: You can't predict the future
Yours: Oh yes I can!

Who sounds crazier?


hahaha. The Hawks? You will call the Flyers dead but then praise the Hawks? How deranged can one be? The Hawks have won 2 games in there last 10 and they're defense is struggling far worse then ours and they are far closer to missing the playoffs then we are. Yet somehow the Hawks are still a favorite while the Flyers are dead?

The Bruins are playing .500 hockey in the last 10.

In you're world everything that is true in the NHL today will not change over the next 25 games or so?
That is very logical buddy



2009 Stanley Cup Champions

PITTSBURGH PENGUINS


This is a screenshot I took earlier that season.


FACT: February 15, 2009, the struggling Pittsburgh Penguins fired coach Michel Therrien and hired Dan Bylsma as the team considered selling.

FACT: This team won the Stanley Cup that season after they decided not to sell and became buyers.

FACT: No team holding a playoff spot and struggling at 56 games in the season is dead.
We can always bet.. I said any of those 6 teams will make finals and you are saying what exactly?

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02-13-2012, 12:24 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by nitroglycerin View Post
No one is arguing about our talent level upfront, I doubt that our forwards will compensate for our D and goaltending shortcomings especially in playoffs.
And no one is saying our forwards will do that (hence, trading for defensemen...)

Quote:
No one will give you #1 or potential #1 d-men for peanuts. Even picking up Grossman won't solve our multiple problems but I am ok with getting him. This is the only trade that would be worth making.
Never said anyone would trade these players for peanuts. If the Flyers can upgrade MAB and Gus (or even just one) that makes this team a lot better on defense. If they can also upgrade one of the forwards in a defensive sense (i.e. Rinaldo or Sestito) the Flyers would be that much better. I don't understand why everyone is so concerned with these draft picks. Once again, do you really think whoever the Flyers get, even with their first rounder, will be as good as a Grossman-type player and in enough time to actually play with this current team. I wouldn't bet on it, at least not when the alternative is getting the actual NHL player.

Quote:
I want Flyers to draft at least twice in 1st two rounds. If Suter is available before the draft obviously we must look into it. Not trading 3rd for Gill or things of that nature. Screw that plan.
Again, this is where I don't get it. Drafting players that will not impact this team this year (or even next year in all likelihood) and may not ever have an impact is somehow a better idea than getting guys that can step in and play now.

Quote:
Another plan is to clean our house. I am talking Jagr, Timonen and Carle. Assuming Briere won't waive his NTC.
That is just nuts. I wouldn't even know how to respond if that occurred.

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02-13-2012, 12:40 PM
  #71
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DFF, the thing is, you eventually need young players on contracts similar to Giroux (where production > cap hit) in order to build a team that can contend for a multitude of years. It's a problem that's been effecting us (defensemen) for years, and would have been a problem with our forwards if Richards and Carter were not traded away.

In the near future, all of these young forwards on our team will need raises, some of them substantial. When that happens, if we want to retain all of them, we will need cheap, young players on ELC's or early RFA deals to compliment them because, in general, UFA free agents (veterans) are more expensive than their younger counterparts.

I wrote this quickly before class, so I know I left some loose-ends and holes in what I'm trying to say that I'll address when I get back.

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02-13-2012, 12:41 PM
  #72
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The Flyers already started a rebuilding process by trading Richards and Carter -- I don't care what you want to call it, that's what it is. Throw in Pronger since we've lost him and that's 3 of our 5 best players, big-time players, that are gone from the last 2-3 years.

We've got young, legit talent on this team. Don't reverse the process that was started last summer by trading picks or young players. Wanna deal Carle? Do it. Briere? Please. But don't reverse the rebuilding phase by throwing picks and talent around. Get a few dmen into the system via the draft, go after Weber or Suter in July, get a legit checking center, and work from there. Don't deal at the deadline just to deal (Versteeg).

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02-13-2012, 12:43 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitroglycerin View Post
No one is arguing about our talent level upfront, I doubt that our forwards will compensate for our D and goaltending shortcomings especially in playoffs.

No one will give you #1 or potential #1 d-men for peanuts. Even picking up Grossman won't solve our multiple problems but I am ok with getting him. This is the only trade that would be worth making.
I want Flyers to draft at least twice in 1st two rounds. If Suter is available before the draft obviously we must look into it. Not trading 3rd for Gill or things of that nature. Screw that plan.

Another plan is to clean our house. I am talking Jagr, Timonen and Carle. Assuming Briere won't waive his NTC.
With the young team we have selling all of those Veterans doesn't sound very smart to me.

Why would we trade our best defenseman in Timonen? He has been playing well, his selection for the ASG reflects that. His current contract will end soon and I bet he resigns for cheap just to have one more shot at a cup with this team...

Jagr has been a bargain so far. You won't find somebody with half of his experience to replace his scoring let alone leadership. He will be money come playoff time.

Carle could be expendable if the package is right.

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02-13-2012, 12:58 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
Pretty straight forward:

1.) When has a playoff team (ignoring the fact that we're the 4 seed) ever sold? I cannot ever recall this having happened, but perhaps in the cirsumstance of a small market team with a major impending UFA (Parise perhaps) it has.

2.) The NHL playoffs are notoriously wide open. A hot goalie is the great equalizer. Bryz has played poorly so far, but there's nothing to suggest he's 100% incapable of going full Michael Leighton circa 2010.

That said, if Holmgren were really smart, he could hedge his bets. Carle for a 1st, then bring in Gil and Grossman for a combined 2nd, 3rd and AHL or lower prospect.

You don't need to blow up all the vets for this team to be mildly competitive this year and even more competitive next season.
not to nitpick, but....

you honestly think Leighton was the reason we made it to the finals? If anything, he's the reason we lost the cup that year. He played good, but you stick any decent NHL goalie in net during that run and it would have all been the same result. The team in front of him was great, probably the best we've had in 20 years. The players were healthy and it just seemed like whenever this team was down, we would fight back and continue on (the Boston series, absolutely dominating the Habs, game 3/4 of the finals).

Back on topic, how does trading Carle mean we're sellers? With the spot that he in on this roster (top 4) and without Pronger, he sucks. He can't anchor a pairing and he constantly makes dumb plays. Getting anything for this guy to help us in the future would be a great move by Holmgren

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02-13-2012, 12:59 PM
  #75
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[QUOTE=dats81;44066271]With the young team we have selling all of those Veterans doesn't sound very smart to me.
QUOTE] It's an idea.
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Why would we trade our best defenseman in Timonen? He has been playing well, his selection for the ASG reflects that. His current contract will end soon and I bet he resigns for cheap just to have one more shot at a cup with this team...
Because he is awesome, because we do not know what new CBA will birng and when, because we can get at least 1st round pick and blue chip prospect and maybe conditional 1st round pick for him, because we need money if we want to sign Suter, because maybe Timonen wants to win SC.

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Originally Posted by dats81 View Post
Jagr has been a bargain so far. You won't find somebody with half of his experience to replace his scoring let alone leadership. He will be money come playoff time.
Jagr looked like 40 year old Jagr for about 10-15 games now. His leadership? He will be money in playoffs? Hmm... your point is debatable. Plus if we'll decide to clean the house and I we probably won't but if we will why stop half way.

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