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Old
02-13-2012, 12:57 AM
  #376
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
They're still 3rd overall in the conference. I would step back from that ledge, my friend.
we are still 3rd based on play/points gained early in the season.

i truely hope the team finds a way to pull it together but honestly i dont see it happening with this roster.

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02-13-2012, 12:16 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by Coutsiephan View Post
One of them needs to freaking go on a stretch of insane goaltending
agreed. i'm hoping Bryz can do that, but if Bob does, that's perfectly OK with me

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02-13-2012, 12:43 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
Are you ****ing kidding me? It's Bob's fault when a person is sitting in front of the him getting the goal with no d-men around to help at all?
Thats the MO around here...did the puck go in? Goalie sucks.

At this point let's just get one of those bedridden fatties who is 1000lbs, toss an orange shirt on him, and forklift them out in front of the net. "just lay here bro, see you in 20."

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02-13-2012, 01:56 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
Thats the MO around here...did the puck go in? Goalie sucks.
The thing is: That's exactly how you evaluate goaltenders.

The disagreement only varies on how much.

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02-13-2012, 02:10 PM
  #380
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my criteria:

what could the goalie have reasonably been expected to do differently on a goal against.

[ just saying 'make the save' doesn't count]

obviously, a puck in your glove's pocket needs to be caught, so in those cases, the expectation would be: 'catch it' [which i consider different from 'make the save', as it is a specific thing he needs to do]

once you establish if there was something he should have reasonably been expected to do differently, then you can assign blame to the goalie

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02-13-2012, 02:48 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
my criteria:

what could the goalie have reasonably been expected to do differently on a goal against.

[ just saying 'make the save' doesn't count]

obviously, a puck in your glove's pocket needs to be caught, so in those cases, the expectation would be: 'catch it' [which i consider different from 'make the save', as it is a specific thing he needs to do]

once you establish if there was something he should have reasonably been expected to do differently, then you can assign blame to the goalie
That's a bad criterion. Why: What I want from a goaltender is to both make reasonable and unreasonable saves. I want him/her to stop everything. No goal is good. I expect the reasonable saves to be made. I applaud like crazy when the unreasonable saves are made. If the shot demands an unconventional response, I want to see that response made and the save made.

"He could have done this to make the save." Relies upon that which is counterfactually true. Too many "what ifs he did X instead." I don't care. Just make it. Period.

Hasek would agree.

Part of the problem is that in all sports, thinking is the enemy (even in 50 table speed chess-- grand masters just glance and make a move and will win almost all 50 tables). You want certain actions and adjustment to be made out of purely refined habit. You'll often hear about an athlete that is "over thinking" or "thinking too much" instead of simply doing. Gretzsky talks about how he performed actions millions of times and that's what gave him an edge to do things automatically, so he could react more unconventionally (by say, exceptionally seeing the ice better than anyone else) to something else developing (like the play.)

You can train to perform the "right" save a million times but those saves are expected to be made "reasonably" but what cannot be taught is, having done certain actions over and over via training, is when the "rules" are forgotten and athletes simply adapt. Unconventional saves fall into this category.

An example that is sometimes used are training wheels on a bike. The training wheels keep the person at a specific balance and tilt such that they can perform bike riding until they have mastered it. The rules for "reasonable and safe bike riding" are given in the perimeters of the wheels.

Once the wheels come off, however, the bike rider can lean far over, go off ramps, all the sudden have abilities to circumvent and ignore everything taught to him by the wheels. Why? Because the athlete has such a familiarity with making regular positional saves the goaltender can make saves that fall outside the normal rules of positioning, or what can reasonably be expected by the normal angles of goaltending, but nevertheless when the unconventional comes the save is made.

I'm not interested in: "He could have come out farther from his net." I want the save made. Okay, so the goaltender comes out too far, but did he throw himself backwards and make the stop? He did. great.

The only real criterion for judging a goaltender will be SV%.


Last edited by Flyotes: 02-13-2012 at 02:53 PM.
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02-13-2012, 03:08 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
The thing is: That's exactly how you evaluate goaltenders.

The disagreement only varies on how much.
Thats not how I evaluate goaltenders.

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02-13-2012, 04:31 PM
  #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
That's a bad criterion. Why: What I want from a goaltender is to both make reasonable and unreasonable saves. I want him/her to stop everything. No goal is good. I expect the reasonable saves to be made. I applaud like crazy when the unreasonable saves are made. If the shot demands an unconventional response, I want to see that response made and the save made.

"He could have done this to make the save." Relies upon that which is counterfactually true. Too many "what ifs he did X instead." I don't care. Just make it. Period.

Hasek would agree.

Part of the problem is that in all sports, thinking is the enemy (even in 50 table speed chess-- grand masters just glance and make a move and will win almost all 50 tables). You want certain actions and adjustment to be made out of purely refined habit. You'll often hear about an athlete that is "over thinking" or "thinking too much" instead of simply doing. Gretzsky talks about how he performed actions millions of times and that's what gave him an edge to do things automatically, so he could react more unconventionally (by say, exceptionally seeing the ice better than anyone else) to something else developing (like the play.)

You can train to perform the "right" save a million times but those saves are expected to be made "reasonably" but what cannot be taught is, having done certain actions over and over via training, is when the "rules" are forgotten and athletes simply adapt. Unconventional saves fall into this category.

An example that is sometimes used are training wheels on a bike. The training wheels keep the person at a specific balance and tilt such that they can perform bike riding until they have mastered it. The rules for "reasonable and safe bike riding" are given in the perimeters of the wheels.

Once the wheels come off, however, the bike rider can lean far over, go off ramps, all the sudden have abilities to circumvent and ignore everything taught to him by the wheels. Why? Because the athlete has such a familiarity with making regular positional saves the goaltender can make saves that fall outside the normal rules of positioning, or what can reasonably be expected by the normal angles of goaltending, but nevertheless when the unconventional comes the save is made.

I'm not interested in: "He could have come out farther from his net." I want the save made. Okay, so the goaltender comes out too far, but did he throw himself backwards and make the stop? He did. great.

The only real criterion for judging a goaltender will be SV%.
Than the Flyers make every goalie a Vesina candidate with chest snipes and unobstructed shots. If you look at recent (NYI, NYR, DET) games, opposing goalies did make a few difficult saves; the rest of them were....just statistics.

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02-13-2012, 05:02 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by CSKA1974 View Post
Than the Flyers make every goalie a Vesina candidate with chest snipes and unobstructed shots. If you look at recent (NYI, NYR, DET) games, opposing goalies did make a few difficult saves; the rest of them were....just statistics.
Well keep in mind the Flyers are a team that scores a lot of dirty goals on rebounds and deflections. I know some of the lines play simply to get pucks to the net and just outwork the other team. Occasionally there are games were they don't get good deflections, the goalie controls the rebounds, or they just get outworked.

Remember they got away from this for a while not to long ago specifically on the power play and they were criticized with passing to much while looking for the perfect shot. Plus when players try to aim to much they can miss the net a lot. Carter style.

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02-13-2012, 05:03 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by Slap Happy View Post
Ok, I will attempt to pick apart this horrid post.



How so? He is getting paid over 5 million dollars and is getting out performed/performing along the same lines of a goalie that is getting paid under a million dollars and is playing his second season in NA. There is absolutely no excuse for this to happen.


Thats all well and good, but this year he is playing no where close to those career numbers. Career numbers mean jack ****.



There is no proof that the cap is going to continue to rise. If its going to continue to rise, whats the point of having a cap? The smaller market teams will still be screwed.


that pretty much sums up that part


You should just worry about mailing yourself a copy from the looks of things
you did a horrible job at your attempt to try. You dont like Bryzgalov? sucks to be you AND a flyers fan. must blow to hate your goalie and btw learn how to watch hockey cause the defense on this team, and i dont mean our defenseman isolated are to blame ,i mean the whole team concept is the problem. but go ahead and simplify it to 1 position. whatever helps you comprehend things better, Slappy. Btw his gaa is now under bobrovsky's. i think both goalies are fine and not at fault for our inconsistency tho. that needs to be known.


Last edited by funghoul: 02-13-2012 at 05:09 PM.
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02-13-2012, 05:04 PM
  #386
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I think Bob could be a #1 somewhere. He certainly has shown potential at times. I don't think he is going to take Henrik Lundqvist or Ryan Miller's job any time soon, but I could see him starting for a number of teams (the Flyers not being one of them).

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02-13-2012, 05:10 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
That's a bad criterion. Why: What I want from a goaltender is to both make reasonable and unreasonable saves.
ummmmmm, that was my criteria on judging if any goal is 'the goalie's fault' or not. [which is what we are doing in this thread].

generally speaking, the way I judge a goalie overall:

most goalies make all the stops they are 'supposed to' ..... the great ones make extra saves on the ones their not supposed to get.

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02-13-2012, 05:12 PM
  #388
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It wouldn't be Flyers Hockey without some sort of goalie controversy.

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02-13-2012, 05:15 PM
  #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
ummmmmm, that was my criteria on judging if any goal is 'the goalie's fault' or not. [which is what we are doing in this thread].

generally speaking, the way I judge a goalie overall:

most goalies make all the stops they are 'supposed to' ..... the great ones make extra saves on the ones their not supposed to get.
you should just talk to your wall. it might be easier to convince.

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02-13-2012, 06:18 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
ummmmmm, that was my criteria on judging if any goal is 'the goalie's fault' or not. [which is what we are doing in this thread].
The goalie's "fault" is about as unreliable pretend stat as I've ever heard.

He could have gotten bad eggs and be trying not to cut a turd so he couldn't get into the butterfly fast enough.

All that matters is how many stops he makes, which already includes those that are "his fault."

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02-13-2012, 06:41 PM
  #391
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I think Bob could be a #1 somewhere. He certainly has shown potential at times. I don't think he is going to take Henrik Lundqvist or Ryan Miller's job any time soon, but I could see him starting for a number of teams (the Flyers not being one of them).
If Bob played for a more defensively responsible team, I have no doubt he'd sport a SV% of .920 or better... with a handful of shutouts, too.

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02-13-2012, 06:44 PM
  #392
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Originally Posted by funghoul View Post
you did a horrible job at your attempt to try. You dont like Bryzgalov? sucks to be you AND a flyers fan. must blow to hate your goalie and btw learn how to watch hockey cause the defense on this team, and i dont mean our defenseman isolated are to blame ,i mean the whole team concept is the problem. but go ahead and simplify it to 1 position. whatever helps you comprehend things better, Slappy. Btw his gaa is now under bobrovsky's. i think both goalies are fine and not at fault for our inconsistency tho. that needs to be known.
Obviously you have 0 reading comprehension, but judging by your posts, i cant say im surprised. Ive watched and played hockey and have been a goalie for nearly 20 years, but try again.

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02-13-2012, 06:45 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
ummmmmm, that was my criteria on judging if any goal is 'the goalie's fault' or not. [which is what we are doing in this thread].

generally speaking, the way I judge a goalie overall:

most goalies make all the stops they are 'supposed to' ..... the great ones make extra saves on the ones their not supposed to get.
Tell the bold to our goalies, especially to Bryz

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02-13-2012, 07:16 PM
  #394
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There's so much to judging a goalie it can't be stated in a few lines.

Like one big one is rebound control. If a goalie's giving up juicy rebounds, some people will only look at the shot that goes in and say "he had no chance to save that" when it was the goalie's fault that opportunity existed to begin with.

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02-13-2012, 08:24 PM
  #395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
If Bob played for a more defensively responsible team, I have no doubt he'd sport a SV% of .920 or better... with a handful of shutouts, too.
Is that some sort of dig at Bryz?

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02-13-2012, 08:46 PM
  #396
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Originally Posted by Slap Happy View Post
Obviously you have 0 reading comprehension, but judging by your posts, i cant say im surprised. Ive watched and played hockey and have been a goalie for nearly 20 years, but try again.
It must've been field hockey or the special olympics cause you dont seem to have an understanding of how ICE hockey works. thats o.k tho, YOU can try again. In the NHL goalies depend on the players in front of them to defend areas in and arond the crease in a way that breaks up not only passing lanes down low but forces players to the outside to take low percentage shots at the goal even 5 on 5 which is something we havent done much of this year. we are too physical offensively which leads to stupid penalties (the worst of which happen too many times in the neutral zone) and arent physical enough in our own end. you cant blame passive defensive play on our goalies every night. it's just stupid.

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02-13-2012, 08:58 PM
  #397
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Originally Posted by f2d View Post
There's so much to judging a goalie it can't be stated in a few lines.

Like one big one is rebound control. If a goalie's giving up juicy rebounds, some people will only look at the shot that goes in and say "he had no chance to save that" when it was the goalie's fault that opportunity existed to begin with.
why are you such an expert on goalies? you guys got lucky with lundqvist. remember when you had dunham? that sucked.

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02-13-2012, 09:49 PM
  #398
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Originally Posted by funghoul View Post
It must've been field hockey or the special olympics cause you dont seem to have an understanding of how ICE hockey works. thats o.k tho, YOU can try again. In the NHL goalies depend on the players in front of them to defend areas in and arond the crease in a way that breaks up not only passing lanes down low but forces players to the outside to take low percentage shots at the goal even 5 on 5 which is something we havent done much of this year. we are too physical offensively which leads to stupid penalties (the worst of which happen too many times in the neutral zone) and arent physical enough in our own end. you cant blame passive defensive play on our goalies every night. it's just stupid.
Nope pretty sure it was ice hockey, but thanks for that. What you wrote is all absolutely true, however, what you first said and what I first quoted has absolutely nothing to do with what you are saying right now. Go back and read what you first wrote, it has nothing to do with what you wrote above, but nice try.

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02-13-2012, 10:01 PM
  #399
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Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
The goalie's "fault" is about as unreliable pretend stat as I've ever heard.
that shows how far off the mark you are. nobody is claiming it is some sort of 'stat'

what on Earth are you talking about.

we're giving our opinion on his performance. period. we're discussing it / agreeing & disagreeing ... but NOBODY is even thinking about the idea that it is some measurable stat.

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02-13-2012, 10:01 PM
  #400
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Tell the bold to our goalies, especially to Bryz
post that in the Bryz thread, or write him a letter.

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