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Old
02-08-2012, 11:10 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by NickTheBruinsFan90 View Post
Jesus christ ... it's KELLY.

BTW How in the world do you think Peverley for Wheeler and Stuart is a loss??? We won a cup with Peverley being a key factor. Wheeler = lazy player that blew here. And Stuart was replaced by McQuaid's abilities.

I totally agree. Peverley was a significant upgrade over Wheeler. Think of some of the key goals that Pevs scored and how he kept the guys he was playing against off the score sheet. And Stuart would have been gone at the end of the season anyway, as he wanted more money which he wouldn't have gotten from the B's.

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02-08-2012, 11:12 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Latrappe View Post
1- Pretty Bold statement considering that Kaberle was buried on the 3rd pairing because he was a defensive liability.

2- Who tell you that the Bruins would have choose the Kampfer option. They could have traded for another D-man to fill the void.
1. Not bold at all. Actually one of the least bold statements I've ever made. Kaberle >>>> Kampfer.

2. Who's to say that a)there was someone else that was being offered to them and that b) that someone would have fixed the issues or played to the same level as Kaberle?

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02-08-2012, 11:19 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
1. Not bold at all. Actually one of the least bold statements I've ever made. Kaberle >>>> Kampfer.

2. Who's to say that a)there was someone else that was being offered to them and that b) that someone would have fixed the issues or played to the same level as Kaberle?
Well, considering how bad Kaberle was, i don't think it would have been very tough to find someone who could have played at the same level. People seem to forget that he was on the 3rd pairing which was not the reason why the Bruins traded for him ( and i don't mention the fact that the PP was brutal then ever... ). I agree that we won the Cup but Kaberle's contribution is overblown. Even on the 3rd pairing, there was two separate situations where he almost scored in his own goal. I definitely respect your opinion and see where you come from but i just can't agree with it.

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02-08-2012, 11:23 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Bruwinz37 View Post
Dont let the revisionist historians convince you that Kaberle was good. He wasnt...he was a gong show. So much so that Julien couldnt trust him with more than 10 protected minutes. Yea, he got some assists and made a few plays....but in the end played weak defensively overall, gave the puck up a lot and didnt produce the way we expected of him. In fact the PP (his specialty) got significantly worse with him here.

The only reason it isnt viewed as a complete disaster is that we won the Cup....in spite of his performance.
A yeah, the good old "if someone doesn't agree with me he is stupid" argument.

You are right Kaberle just lucked into 11 assists during the playoffs. Steven Kampfer, who has 12 assists over his entire career, definitely could have done that.

Kaberle contributed to the cup run, they didn't win "in spite of him." He may not have contributed as much as some people expected but he contributed.

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02-08-2012, 11:28 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by NathanSeguin View Post
A yeah, the good old "if someone doesn't agree with me he is stupid" argument.

You are right Kaberle just lucked into 11 assists during the playoffs. Steven Kampfer, who has 12 assists over his entire career, definitely could have done that.

Kaberle contributed to the cup run, they didn't win "in spite of him." He may not have contributed as much as some people expected but he contributed.
Problem is: You assume that Chiarelli wouldn't have traded for another D-man since you insist on Kampfer. I don't think it's a reasonable position.

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02-08-2012, 11:30 AM
  #106
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Any trade made last season that added a piece which helped us win the Cup was/is a win...this shouldn't even be a discussion. Does anyone on here wish we kept Wheeler and Stuart at the expense of winning the Cup? Probably not. But it's HF, so there is always one.

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02-08-2012, 11:31 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Latrappe View Post
Well, considering how bad Kaberle was, i don't think it would have been very tough to find someone who could have played at the same level. People seem to forget that he was on the 3rd pairing which was not the reason why the Bruins traded for him ( and i don't mention the fact that the PP was brutal then ever... ). I agree that we won the Cup but Kaberle's contribution is overblown. Even on the 3rd pairing, there was two separate situations where he almost scored in his own goal. I definitely respect your opinion and see where you come from but i just can't agree with it.
How do you know that the B's planned on putting him in the first or second pairing? I think most 13 year olds on HF last year could have told you pre-Kaberle trade that Boston had 6 defensemen already who were better in their own end. Kaberle coming in and being a top 2 guy in Boston was never a question. He was brought in to improve transition and the powerplay.

He obviously was only able to do one of those things, but looking at his resume up until that point, you'd be going out on a limb stating that that would be the case. Can't really fault Chia for that. As for his contributions, I don't think they're overblown at all. Just the opposite in fact, I think his limited contributions were under-appreciated. Most people think Boston won in spite of Kaberle, but you don't get through 4 series (3 of which go 7 games) and win inspite of anyone, especially a dman that gets 16 minutes a night. And again, the guy had 11 assists and 5 PP points. That was good enough to lead the Bruins dmen in both categories.

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02-08-2012, 11:32 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Latrappe View Post
Problem is: You assume that Chiarelli wouldn't have traded for another D-man since you insist on Kampfer. I don't think it's a reasonable position.
Exactly. Other d-men moved to new teams for less than a prospect, first, and second, and had bigger impacts on their respective teams than Kaberle did here.

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02-08-2012, 11:33 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
How do you know that the B's planned on putting him in the first or second pairing? I think most 13 year olds on HF last year could have told you pre-Kaberle trade that Boston had 6 defensemen already who were better in their own end. Kaberle coming in and being a top 2 guy in Boston was never a question. He was brought in to improve transition and the powerplay.

He obviously was only able to do one of those things, but looking at his resume up until that point, you'd be going out on a limb stating that that would be the case. Can't really fault Chia for that. As for his contributions, I don't think they're overblown at all. Just the opposite in fact, I think his limited contributions were under-appreciated. Most people think Boston won in spite of Kaberle, but you don't get through 4 series (3 of which go 7 games) and win inspite of anyone, especially a dman that gets 16 minutes a night. And again, the guy had 11 assists and 5 PP points. That was good enough to lead the Bruins dmen in both categories.
The cost they paid to obtain him said they weren't looking for a bottom pairing. I can't believe you'd even argue this point, Kaoz.

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02-08-2012, 11:45 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by NathanSeguin View Post
A yeah, the good old "if someone doesn't agree with me he is stupid" argument.

You are right Kaberle just lucked into 11 assists during the playoffs. Steven Kampfer, who has 12 assists over his entire career, definitely could have done that.

Kaberle contributed to the cup run, they didn't win "in spite of him." He may not have contributed as much as some people expected but he contributed.
I agree 100%. Doesn't make it a good trade, necessarily, but not one worth lamenting (particularly because I believe Joe Colborne will be an impact player in the NHL as much as I believe Eric Fehr's finally going to live up to his hype.)

And Kaberle made some awesome defensive plays and saved goals against as well, but some people will never remember them.

Which is why I think I'd rather go to a blind dog for an opinion on a d-man's play than ask some people here. If it's a mistake, it's burned in their memories forever. If it's a solid defensive play, it's forgotten before the next commercial break.

If you're confident in your knowledge and abilities to evaluate an NHL defenseman's play, don't even bother discussing it here.

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02-08-2012, 12:16 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by nycbruins View Post
I agree 100%. Doesn't make it a good trade, necessarily, but not one worth lamenting (particularly because I believe Joe Colborne will be an impact player in the NHL as much as I believe Eric Fehr's finally going to live up to his hype.)

And Kaberle made some awesome defensive plays and saved goals against as well, but some people will never remember them.

Which is why I think I'd rather go to a blind dog for an opinion on a d-man's play than ask some people here. If it's a mistake, it's burned in their memories forever. If it's a solid defensive play, it's forgotten before the next commercial break.

If you're confident in your knowledge and abilities to evaluate an NHL defenseman's play, don't even bother discussing it here.
If you have nothing but contempt for other people's views on the subject, why bother coming to a site that's pretty much dedicated to sharing different opinions? You're obviously not looking for a discussion or debate, as evidenced by your comments, so what gives? I may disagree with somebody's viewpoint, but to discount it all together seems pretty narrow minded, IMO. More importantly, I think everyone in this thread has contributed something to it, even if I see things in a different light. If it weren't for the differing opinions, this place would be very, very boring.

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02-08-2012, 12:26 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
If you have nothing but contempt for other people's views on the subject, why bother coming to a site that's pretty much dedicated to sharing different opinions? You're obviously not looking for a discussion or debate, as evidenced by your comments, so what gives? I may disagree with somebody's viewpoint, but to discount it all together seems pretty narrow minded, IMO. More importantly, I think everyone in this thread has contributed something to it, even if I see things in a different light. If it weren't for the differing opinions, this place would be very, very boring.
I wasn't talking about everyone, and I didn't say everyone, but I know your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired.

And yes, when it comes to d-men, I do think it's pointless to discuss certain players, like Kaberle or Wideman etc. These are guys that made lots of good plays for the Bruins that are never acknowledged. But their mistakes are on the tips of a lot of tongues all the time. It's the nature of the beast and for posters who like to think they can evaluate NHL defensemen, it is an exercise in futility to get an idea of a d-man's play unless you saw it yourself.

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02-08-2012, 12:43 PM
  #113
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I wasn't talking about everyone, and I didn't say everyone, but I know your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired.

And yes, when it comes to d-men, I do think it's pointless to discuss certain players, like Kaberle or Wideman etc. These are guys that made lots of good plays for the Bruins that are never acknowledged. But their mistakes are on the tips of a lot of tongues all the time. It's the nature of the beast and for posters who like to think they can evaluate NHL defensemen, it is an exercise in futility to get an idea of a d-man's play unless you saw it yourself.
Any play is open to interpretation. What you may consider a good play, others think was poor. That difference of opinion is why this place exists. It's what makes it fun to come here. Sure there may be some noise you have to filter out, but there's always some new perspective you can gain by talking to other people and getting their view on it. It's why making blanket statements like you did is what truly is pointless to me.

For the record, my reading comprehension is fine, thank you very much. I never said you were dismissive of everyone's opinions either. I said you had contempt for other people's views (specifically the people whose views here you disagreed with in this thread) to say they were on par with that of a blind dog. That's not everyone by my count, but I'm not you, so I couldn't definitively say what you really felt.

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02-08-2012, 01:24 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
Exactly. Other d-men moved to new teams for less than a prospect, first, and second, and had bigger impacts on their respective teams than Kaberle did here.
What other Dman moved on TD had a huge impact on their team?

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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
The cost they paid to obtain him said they weren't looking for a bottom pairing. I can't believe you'd even argue this point, Kaoz.
That depends on what you think of the price, and personally I don't think it was as bad as many here think. Would I pay that price for one of the better specialty dmen out there... sure I would. I would have hoped for better results honestly, but you'd have to be damn near prophetic to see the results before they happen. Regardless, Kaberle was looked at as one of the premiere PP QB's before coming here, so the price is pretty much par for that course.

Does he need to be a top pairing or second pairing guy to accomplish that? I don't think. He really didn't have the defensive acumen to be that here, not in this system so his role was far more defined then it ever was in Toronto. That said, he still played substantial minutes, we aren't talking a 10 minute a night dman here. Guy played 16 minutes a night.

Again, whether or not he was the best fit for the Bruins is highly debatable. Maybe some think they should have gotten Wideman back, or maybe folks think we should have gone hard after JM Liles, Bryan Allen, or Chris Campoli... but again, there is no guarantee those folks would have had the same impact... and yes, I think an offensive dman who averages a point every other game in 16 minutes a night has an impact. Of the other guys that went at the deadline, Liles would likely be the only guy out of them who could possibly fill that role, but then you have to consider Kaberle's resume, experience, and the fact the Liles is just as bad if not worse defensively (scary thought, especially for Boston).

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02-08-2012, 01:47 PM
  #115
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02-08-2012, 01:52 PM
  #116
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I think we all get excited about the possibilities come trade deadline. Can our GM look like a genius and bring in some big talent for little in return. Reality is that many teams make some big mistakes come trade deadline. For example L.A. trading for Dustin Penner for Tuebert, 1st and 3rd rd pick. Washington trading for Arnott for Stekel and a 2nd. Even the Panthers giving up on Wideman to Washington for Hausewith and a 3rd.

Chiarelli has won some and lost as well on trade deadline.
2010
Morris for a 3rd round pick- loss
Kampfer for a 4th round pick- maybe a win
Seidenberg and Bartowski for Bitz, Weller and 2nd- huge win

2011
Kaberele for Colbourne, 1st rd pick (Tyler Biggs) and a 2nd in 2012- Huge loss
Peverley for Wheeler and Stuart- probably a loss
Kelley for a 2nd - huge win


So as this trade deadline approaches, Buyer Beware!
This is one of the days GM's make great decisions and win trades or are on the losing end and set back their franchise.

Who will makes the big moves? Which team will load up for the playoffs? Who could be a team that surprises everyone?

We won the Cup so ... we won. lol

But anyhow, I think we won the Peverley trade though.

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02-08-2012, 02:33 PM
  #117
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What other Dman moved on TD had a huge impact on their team?



That depends on what you think of the price, and personally I don't think it was as bad as many here think. Would I pay that price for one of the better specialty dmen out there... sure I would. I would have hoped for better results honestly, but you'd have to be damn near prophetic to see the results before they happen. Regardless, Kaberle was looked at as one of the premiere PP QB's before coming here, so the price is pretty much par for that course.

Does he need to be a top pairing or second pairing guy to accomplish that? I don't think. He really didn't have the defensive acumen to be that here, not in this system so his role was far more defined then it ever was in Toronto. That said, he still played substantial minutes, we aren't talking a 10 minute a night dman here. Guy played 16 minutes a night.

Again, whether or not he was the best fit for the Bruins is highly debatable. Maybe some think they should have gotten Wideman back, or maybe folks think we should have gone hard after JM Liles, Bryan Allen, or Chris Campoli... but again, there is no guarantee those folks would have had the same impact... and yes, I think an offensive dman who averages a point every other game in 16 minutes a night has an impact. Of the other guys that went at the deadline, Liles would likely be the only guy out of them who could possibly fill that role, but then you have to consider Kaberle's resume, experience, and the fact the Liles is just as bad if not worse defensively (scary thought, especially for Boston).
There were other d-men who were traded, whether it was at the deadline or a little earlier. Wiz and Brewer were two already brought up. Both cost less and seemed to have had a larger impact for their respective teams. As for the guys you mentioned, who knows how they would have played? It's all just speculation.

I'm not basing my opinion of the trade being bad on anything other than what I saw from Kaberle in his time here. What I saw was a player who CJ regularly had to remove from key situations because his defensive play wasn't up to snuff. He had some points, and that's fine, but he was basically only being played in spots where he wouldn't have a negative impact. He was getting 16 minutes per night, but 3:45 of those minutes were coming on the PP. The fact he was barely pulling 12 minutes of ES time on ice per night means he was nothing more than a defensive liability. Think of it this way, when you take out his PP TOI per night, he averaged less TOI than McQuaid, which means Kabs was not very trusted by CJ. So the guy was getting the least TOI at ES of all d-men, yet he lead the team in PP TOI. What does that say to you? It means CJ cherry picked the situations where TK was in order to not expose the team to his defensive lapses. That's all I need to hear.

As for the cost, you're looking at the end results and saying it's not a big deal. I get that, but I don't necessarily agree with it. Who they traded or how those players ultimately turn out isn't the question. It was the value they represented at the time, not whether they pan out as professional players. They traded a hefty amount of futures for a guy who was on record as saying he would only come to Boston.

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02-08-2012, 03:20 PM
  #118
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There were other d-men who were traded, whether it was at the deadline or a little earlier. Wiz and Brewer were two already brought up. Both cost less and seemed to have had a larger impact for their respective teams. As for the guys you mentioned, who knows how they would have played? It's all just speculation.

I'm not basing my opinion of the trade being bad on anything other than what I saw from Kaberle in his time here. What I saw was a player who CJ regularly had to remove from key situations because his defensive play wasn't up to snuff. He had some points, and that's fine, but he was basically only being played in spots where he wouldn't have a negative impact. He was getting 16 minutes per night, but 3:45 of those minutes were coming on the PP. The fact he was barely pulling 12 minutes of ES time on ice per night means he was nothing more than a defensive liability. Think of it this way, when you take out his PP TOI per night, he averaged less TOI than McQuaid, which means Kabs was not very trusted by CJ. So the guy was getting the least TOI at ES of all d-men, yet he lead the team in PP TOI. What does that say to you? It means CJ cherry picked the situations where TK was in order to not expose the team to his defensive lapses. That's all I need to hear.

As for the cost, you're looking at the end results and saying it's not a big deal. I get that, but I don't necessarily agree with it. Who they traded or how those players ultimately turn out isn't the question. It was the value they represented at the time, not whether they pan out as professional players. They traded a hefty amount of futures for a guy who was on record as saying he would only come to Boston.
But they still didn't have to trade him, and you make a very good point regarding perceived value. The issue being, we don't know what actual value Colborne held to other GM's. Word had it at the time (from our very own OOG I believe) that Colborne wasn't Toronto's first choice and that Chia wouldn't move the guy Burke really wanted.

I don't think either Colborne or that 30th overall pick had the actual value many here believe they had.

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02-08-2012, 03:54 PM
  #119
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But they still didn't have to trade him, and you make a very good point regarding perceived value. The issue being, we don't know what actual value Colborne held to other GM's. Word had it at the time (from our very own OOG I believe) that Colborne wasn't Toronto's first choice and that Chia wouldn't move the guy Burke really wanted.

I don't think either Colborne or that 30th overall pick had the actual value many here believe they had.
The actual value of what they moved for TK is a fair point. Truth be told, after his first Bruins camp I was really interested in seeing Colborne develop. After I saw him a few times last year in the AHL, I was far less excited. He just didn't seem to do much, if anything, to make me think he's going to be a good professional player. Great size, but not much else. Stood around and watched the play happen rather than reacting and anticipating. I'm happy it was him they traded instead of some of the other young guys. That being said though, and despite the cup win, I don't think Kaberle was worth even JC straight up, let alone the draft picks. He was that terrible in his own zone, IMO.

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02-08-2012, 05:15 PM
  #120
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The actual value of what they moved for TK is a fair point. Truth be told, after his first Bruins camp I was really interested in seeing Colborne develop. After I saw him a few times last year in the AHL, I was far less excited. He just didn't seem to do much, if anything, to make me think he's going to be a good professional player. Great size, but not much else. Stood around and watched the play happen rather than reacting and anticipating. I'm happy it was him they traded instead of some of the other young guys. That being said though, and despite the cup win, I don't think Kaberle was worth even JC straight up, let alone the draft picks. He was that terrible in his own zone, IMO.
I can appreciate that. I expected far far more from Kaberle myself and still think there may have been someone out there better suited for the Bruins. I wanted Regehr myself, thought he'd be awesome here but I honestly have no idea if he was available at that time or not.

That said though, I wouldn't feel confident changing one thing on that cup team. I see it as a sum of all it's parts, and if you start taking parts away no matter how small you deem them, you risk the integrity of the whole thing. 11 points, 5 on the PP, and a transition game which is impossible to measure by a statline I feel are significant things he brought to that table in the cup run. I was very prepared for his defensive deficiencies. Because of that I perhaps see the move as more justifiable then others do, but I honestly think Kaberle was the right thing for that team at the right time. Colborne, Stuart Percy (or whoever Chia would have picked at that spot) are a small small price to pay imo.

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02-08-2012, 06:15 PM
  #121
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A yeah, the good old "if someone doesn't agree with me he is stupid" argument.

You are right Kaberle just lucked into 11 assists during the playoffs. Steven Kampfer, who has 12 assists over his entire career, definitely could have done that.

Kaberle contributed to the cup run, they didn't win "in spite of him." He may not have contributed as much as some people expected but he contributed.

Wow compelling argument! lol

Believe what you will.

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02-09-2012, 12:44 AM
  #122
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If you take every trade/signing PC made since he's been here, His record is pretty damn good. I would certainly give him an A.

When a bad deal he made years ago {Versteeg/ Bochenski}is still talked about, you know what a great job he did.

As for the Kaberle deal, the jury is still out because we dont know what we gave up. Colborne is still a "wait and see" prospect that we could afford to give up. And the pick we gave up is the same thing. What we do know is what we got out of Kaberle. We won the cup with him in the line up. It's impossible to tell if we would have won it without him and it really means nothing. Bottom line is: our GM made moves last season in hopes of helping Bruins to win Lord Stanley. He succeeded and that can never be taken away from him. AND until we actually know what kind of prospects we gave up, the Kaberle deal was a good one.
If the 2 players we gave up turn out to be decent players, well good for Burke and Toronto. He got a little back from the Kessel deal in which PC should get the maximun penalty for theft.

I read most of this thread and I understand where a couple posters debating the Kaberle deal is coming from. LSCII made some very good valid points.


LSCII, I'm interested in your opinion on my post. I was hoping you and other's would debate it.. Lol, call it a Birthday gift. Bruin fan 40+ years. Dammit, I deserve your opinion brother, lol..

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02-13-2012, 11:39 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by nfld77 View Post
LSCII, I'm interested in your opinion on my post. I was hoping you and other's would debate it.. Lol, call it a Birthday gift. Bruin fan 40+ years. Dammit, I deserve your opinion brother, lol..
Sorry, I missed this the first time you posted it.

For the most part, PC has done a very good job. If I had to rate his performance, I'd say he gets a B in trades. He's had some good moves and bad, but most of the time he's gotten better than he's given. Of the bad, I'd say the Versteeg trade, the Morris trade, the Manny Fernandez trade, and the Kaberle move were by far his worst. The Recchi and Horton moves were probably his best.

As for drafting, he's going on what his scouts tell him, and I think they've been sort of suspect. A lot of his current prospects are still very early in their careers so it could be this turns out to be a strength of his, but right now, the only home runs from the draft seem to be Seguin and Hamilton, and those were pretty much no brainers. The team needs to get more out of these picks if they want to sustain a level of competitiveness for the next 5 years. As for a grade, I'd give them a C.

The area he probably get his highest grades from me would be in RFA/UFA signings. His signings have been pretty good, especially when you factor in the way he's gone about resigning what he considered core players in a very quiet, under the radar way mostly to cap favorable deals. That's not something you can discount, considering how MOC and Sinden used to conduct themselves. That's a very radical shift. I'd say this is an A-. It would have been higher but he still gives out too many NTC/NMC for my liking, and those clauses have impacted him negatively at times.

So his overall grade in terms of his performance from me would be around a B.

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02-13-2012, 03:18 PM
  #124
bostone737
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this was printed in the toronto sun, I have to imagine it was in a boston paper too, but anyway, if not, some stuff from chia, pretty interesting

Quote:
That was a hefty cost to shell out for Kaberle, a move Chiarelli feels probably had a domino effect throughout the league.

“The bar has been set very high throughout the league in terms of the asking price for talent, and that probably has to do with what we gave up for Kaberle,” Chiarelli said. “If you want a good player, you are going to have to pay.”
read more:
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/02/11...trade-deadline

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