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Trade Deadline Approaching: Defender?

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Old
02-13-2012, 06:37 PM
  #176
sobrien
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Originally Posted by bryzgalovsky View Post
people have said he's basically a 6th defensemen

how is a 1st round pick and big guy who hasn't looked that bad right now lowballing for that

maybe throw in a phantoms defensemen or something
proof that you shouldn't read into what all "people" say.

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02-13-2012, 08:27 PM
  #177
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I agree but blaming Homer for not anticipating Pronger getting his head whacked right into retirement does not help us either.
I never blamed Homer?

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02-13-2012, 08:58 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
At times he has struggles this year, yes. Does that mean he isn't a good player, absolutely not. I would offer Simmonds, 2nd and a lesser prospect for him and a leaf lesser D prospect. Or just Simmonds and a 2nd for him.
I don't like the idea of giving up Simmonds at all. He just seems like the kind of battler you need for the playoffs. He won't get intimidated when it becomes really hard to stand in front of the net.

Schenn is exactly what the Flyers need. Actually - they need Schenn and Grossman/Allen.

JVR for Schenn and a 2nd round pick.

Carle for Grossman straight up.

This team would be so much better with Carle out and those two guys in.

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02-13-2012, 10:54 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by bryzgalovsky View Post
too bad he is not coming here

Sam Carchidi @BroadStBull
From talking to Luke Schenn last week and reading between lines, I think he would be happy w trade to #Flyers.
I agree with Carchidi, it does seem like L. Schenn would love to come here, not only because of Brayden, but because he wants a shot on a contender. I saw Leafs fans saying that the Leafs/Flyers game last week was his best game of the season, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's because he's more motivated around his brother. Also, Ron Wilson just seems to really not like him, and his not-so-great performance on the Leafs may be partly a confidence issue.

The Flyers had a pair of brothers on the team for both of their Cup wins. While Luke Schenn wouldn't even come close to solving this team's problems right now, one could make the argument that a brother act on the team representing the city of Brotherly Love, has, in the past, been a good luck charm for the franchise...

That being said, I don't think we have anything worthy of giving up for the big Schenn. I don't want to give up Simmonds, I think his style of hockey is perfect for the Flyers. And JVR is, face it, not going anywhere. Burke doesn't want Voracek. We've really got nothing to give away.

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02-14-2012, 01:05 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by SedinSandwich View Post
I agree with Carchidi, it does seem like L. Schenn would love to come here, not only because of Brayden, but because he wants a shot on a contender. I saw Leafs fans saying that the Leafs/Flyers game last week was his best game of the season, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's because he's more motivated around his brother. Also, Ron Wilson just seems to really not like him, and his not-so-great performance on the Leafs may be partly a confidence issue.

The Flyers had a pair of brothers on the team for both of their Cup wins. While Luke Schenn wouldn't even come close to solving this team's problems right now, one could make the argument that a brother act on the team representing the city of Brotherly Love, has, in the past, been a good luck charm for the franchise...

That being said, I don't think we have anything worthy of giving up for the big Schenn. I don't want to give up Simmonds, I think his style of hockey is perfect for the Flyers. And JVR is, face it, not going anywhere. Burke doesn't want Voracek. We've really got nothing to give away.

coburn, mez or carle? all three are probably going anyway. carle wont be resigned, mez will probably go in the summer to sign webber or sutter. i wouldnt be surprised if coburn goes too, the forwards got a makeover last year, now it's the defense.

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02-14-2012, 11:16 AM
  #181
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I was thinking would Chicago be interested in a Carle + Bob package? Any chance at Hammer?

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02-14-2012, 11:18 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by cheesesteak View Post
I was thinking would Chicago be interested in a Carle + Bob package? Any chance at Hammer?
This is what I want!!!! They need a change on their back end and we need a physical dman. Its a match made in heaven. Maybe not Bob going there but Carle + 3rd for the Hammer.

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02-14-2012, 11:23 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
This is what I want!!!! They need a change on their back end and we need a physical dman. Its a match made in heaven. Maybe not Bob going there but Carle + 3rd for the Hammer.
Chicago's problem is defense as much as it is goaltending. They'd pass, I think.

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02-14-2012, 11:25 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Sh0otnSc0re View Post
Chicago's problem is defense as much as it is goaltending. They'd pass, I think.
Ahh it's worth a shot at least. Just to see if they think he would be available. Carle holds more value around here more then people think IMO. He plays a ton of minutes and puts up good points. If we could get a solid defensive dman back for him, I would make the deal in a new york minute.

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02-14-2012, 11:34 AM
  #185
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i still think the Flyers are going to hold onto Carle until the offseason where the may deal him for a pick if they dont feel they can resign him. the market is slim for top 4 defenders. if you trade Carle you create another hole. Say goodbye to multiple high picks.
I dont like Carle, but I really doubt he is traded by the deadline. Unless he is traded for another expiring top 4 contract and I dont see that playing out either.

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02-14-2012, 11:38 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
Ahh it's worth a shot at least. Just to see if they think he would be available. Carle holds more value around here more then people think IMO. He plays a ton of minutes and puts up good points. If we could get a solid defensive dman back for him, I would make the deal in a new york minute.
It's not awful value wise. I think the Hawks are going to attempt to shore up their d-core while riding it out with Crawford and Emery. Also Hammer is DtD right now for the Hawks.

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02-14-2012, 02:53 PM
  #187
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Boychuk resigned. I was interested in getting him this summer.

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02-14-2012, 03:05 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by cheesesteak View Post
Boychuk resigned. I was interested in getting him this summer.
Same I was hoping he'd sneak out of BOS. The number of available inexpensive physical defensemen are dropping drastically

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02-14-2012, 03:08 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Same I was hoping he'd sneak out of BOS. The number of available inexpensive physical defensemen are dropping drastically
Yea but he was signed for a good amount of money. I would rather have someone like Barrett Jackman if he were to leave St louis for 4 million before I even think about Boychuk at 3.36. He is overpaid probably about a good 500-600K IMO

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02-14-2012, 03:16 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
Yea but he was signed for a good amount of money. I would rather have someone like Barrett Jackman if he were to leave St louis for 4 million before I even think about Boychuk at 3.36. He is overpaid probably about a good 500-600K IMO
I think that's a great price for Boychuk, especially in this market.

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02-14-2012, 04:30 PM
  #191
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Same I was hoping he'd sneak out of BOS. The number of available inexpensive physical defensemen are dropping drastically
If only we could draft reliable dmen (and keep them)

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02-14-2012, 04:43 PM
  #192
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Hard to believe that the last real impact defenseman that was drafted by the Flyers was Janne Niinimaa. The verdict is still out on Sbisa (although he seems to be making the grade in Anaheim). Hopefully Holmgren and company will finally be able to draft some defensemen with a shot at making in Philadelphia this summer.

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02-14-2012, 04:50 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Hard to believe that the last real impact defenseman that was drafted by the Flyers was Janne Niinimaa. The verdict is still out on Sbisa (although he seems to be making the grade in Anaheim). Hopefully Holmgren and company will finally be able to draft some defensemen with a shot at making in Philadelphia this summer.
Pitkanen? Therien and Eaton have had solid careers. But yeah, you're right they do need to nail it this draft.

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02-14-2012, 04:52 PM
  #194
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Carle is definitely underrated around here. Most likely because he is deficient in areas that are particularly frustrating for fans. For example, he is not terrible turnover wise, but a lot of his turnovers happen in the defense zone and lead to good opportunities for opponents. His other big area of weakness is that he has a very weak slapshot and an even weaker wrist shot that often leads to blocked shots on the powerplay. He is also not overly physical, which does not fly well here.

I will say though that an article written by a certain D Leed earlier today is a lot more logical and true than anyone here will ever give it credit for. Ryan Suter has the perfect partner in Shea Weber, much like Matt Carle had the perfect partner in Chris Pronger. Suter gets credit for a lot of things, but I have serious doubts if he could anchor a pairing and is truly the number one that many around here think he is.

If you look purely at the objective facts, he and Carle have similar skill-sets (much like Pronger and Weber have similar skill sets) and they both fit perfectly with their pairing-mates. They put up almost identical point totals, their advanced metrics suggest they are quite similar, they are both not overly physical (Carle has more hits this year), the only true difference is that we see a lot of Carle and very little of Suter and Suter has a better shot than Carle.

This is not to say that Suter is not better than Carle, I am simply saying that I think it is a lot closer than anyone in the Carle haters club here will ever admit. Whenever Carle played well with Pronger by his side, everyone credited Pronger and discounted Carle. When Suter plays well with Shea Weber (basically a Pronger in the prime of his career), everyone wants to trade for him because he is so clearly a legitimate number one.

I would be extremely leery of offering Suter seven million per season. Because if Pronger is indeed done for his career, his defensive partner is going to significantly worse than Weber and I am not sure if Suter could in fact carry that pairing.

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02-14-2012, 04:53 PM
  #195
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I'm not sure if the scouting and personnel involved in the last 5-10 years of Flyers drafts are all the same people or not. Clarke and Holmgren have been involved for a long time in some aspect or another. Not sure about their director of scouting.

Either way - they should realize that they are not getting it done. They should hire in an outside opinion on defenseman. Somebody who has proven he has the ability to identify an occasional 1st and maybe a 2nd or 3rd round defenseman that can contribute even a little bit. Then they should listen to this person.

Oh yeah - first trade Carle for a good stay at home guy and a pick. Then trade that pick and another for another good stay at home guy.

They would be out Carle and a pick and have Timonen and Meszaros paired with competent guys. This team just doesn't have a Pronger or anybody that good to pair with Carle anymore.

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02-14-2012, 04:59 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Hard to believe that the last real impact defenseman that was drafted by the Flyers was Janne Niinimaa. The verdict is still out on Sbisa (although he seems to be making the grade in Anaheim). Hopefully Holmgren and company will finally be able to draft some defensemen with a shot at making in Philadelphia this summer.
Pitkanen-Rathje was a fantastic pairing for about 4 months, until Rathje finally broke down. Pitkanen was never the same after that, and his softheadedness eventually got him shipped out.

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02-14-2012, 05:00 PM
  #197
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Carle is definitely underrated around here. Most likely because he is deficient in areas that are particularly frustrating for fans. For example, he is not terrible turnover wise, but a lot of his turnovers happen in the defense zone and lead to good opportunities for opponents. His other big area of weakness is that he has a very weak slapshot and an even weaker wrist shot that often leads to blocked shots on the powerplay. He is also not overly physical, which does not fly well here.

I will say though that an article written by a certain D Leed earlier today is a lot more logical and true than anyone here will ever give it credit for. Ryan Suter has the perfect partner in Shea Weber, much like Matt Carle had the perfect partner in Chris Pronger. Suter gets credit for a lot of things, but I have serious doubts if he could anchor a pairing and is truly the number one that many around here think he is.

If you look purely at the objective facts, he and Carle have similar skill-sets (much like Pronger and Weber have similar skill sets) and they both fit perfectly with their pairing-mates. They put up almost identical point totals, their advanced metrics suggest they are quite similar, they are both not overly physical (Carle has more hits this year), the only true difference is that we see a lot of Carle and very little of Suter and Suter has a better shot than Carle.

This is not to say that Suter is not better than Carle, I am simply saying that I think it is a lot closer than anyone in the Carle haters club here will ever admit. Whenever Carle played well with Pronger by his side, everyone credited Pronger and discounted Carle. When Suter plays well with Shea Weber (basically a Pronger in the prime of his career), everyone wants to trade for him because he is so clearly a legitimate number one.

I would be extremely leery of offering Suter seven million per season. Because if Pronger is indeed done for his career, his defensive partner is going to significantly worse than Weber and I am not sure if Suter could in fact carry that pairing.
You make some very interesting points here ! Sometimes things are really not quite like they seem.

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02-14-2012, 05:18 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by RetiredFlyer View Post
Carle is definitely underrated around here. Most likely because he is deficient in areas that are particularly frustrating for fans. For example, he is not terrible turnover wise, but a lot of his turnovers happen in the defense zone and lead to good opportunities for opponents. His other big area of weakness is that he has a very weak slapshot and an even weaker wrist shot that often leads to blocked shots on the powerplay. He is also not overly physical, which does not fly well here.

I will say though that an article written by a certain D Leed earlier today is a lot more logical and true than anyone here will ever give it credit for. Ryan Suter has the perfect partner in Shea Weber, much like Matt Carle had the perfect partner in Chris Pronger. Suter gets credit for a lot of things, but I have serious doubts if he could anchor a pairing and is truly the number one that many around here think he is.

If you look purely at the objective facts, he and Carle have similar skill-sets (much like Pronger and Weber have similar skill sets) and they both fit perfectly with their pairing-mates. They put up almost identical point totals, their advanced metrics suggest they are quite similar, they are both not overly physical (Carle has more hits this year), the only true difference is that we see a lot of Carle and very little of Suter and Suter has a better shot than Carle.

This is not to say that Suter is not better than Carle, I am simply saying that I think it is a lot closer than anyone in the Carle haters club here will ever admit. Whenever Carle played well with Pronger by his side, everyone credited Pronger and discounted Carle. When Suter plays well with Shea Weber (basically a Pronger in the prime of his career), everyone wants to trade for him because he is so clearly a legitimate number one.

I would be extremely leery of offering Suter seven million per season. Because if Pronger is indeed done for his career, his defensive partner is going to significantly worse than Weber and I am not sure if Suter could in fact carry that pairing.
Honestly, I dont think its really too much of a debate. Suter >>>> Carle. Carle is 24th in the NHL in turnovers. If you think about the amount of defenders that play in the league (6 x 30 plus the #7 and other defenders who get called up) thats really bad. Ive already thrown out advanced stats. Carle is, the worse "defender" on the defense. The team gets scored on the most while he is out there, shots on net are the most when he is out there. He plays lower competition with good teammates also.

Suter leads the Predators with quality of competition. He is at .078 while Weber is at .063. That being said, he does play with the best quality of teammates (Weber is also 2nd in this). Its tricky though since Nashville is a good defensive team. How would Suter look without Weber? I dont know. But I do doubt that he turns into that BAD of a player without him. If anything, I remember reading quotes this past season by some Pred fans on their board how they do think Suter get under appreciated due to Weber.

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02-14-2012, 05:28 PM
  #199
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Honestly, I dont think its really too much of a debate. Suter >>>> Carle. Carle is 24th in the NHL in turnovers. If you think about the amount of defenders that play in the league (6 x 30 plus the #7 and other defenders who get called up) thats really bad. Ive already thrown out advanced stats. Carle is, the worse "defender" on the defense. The team gets scored on the most while he is out there, shots on net are the most when he is out there. He plays lower competition with good teammates also.

Suter leads the Predators with quality of competition. He is at .078 while Weber is at .063. That being said, he does play with the best quality of teammates (Weber is also 2nd in this). Its tricky though since Nashville is a good defensive team. How would Suter look without Weber? I dont know. But I do doubt that he turns into that BAD of a player without him. If anything, I remember reading quotes this past season by some Pred fans on their board how they do think Suter get under appreciated due to Weber.
Pred fans might think that Suter is under appreciated due to Weber. It would not be the first time a fan base has been wrong about something. All I know is that right now, one of them is playing with a rookie that will be a scrub sixth defenseman for his entire career if he even ends up making it in the NHL full time while the other is playing with Shea freaking Weber and their stats are still very very similar. Take it for what it is worth.

Both are minimally physical defensemen who tend towards offense and need to have a defensively responsible partner. They are quite similar.

And Carle is indeed 24th in the NHL in turnovers.

Just for fun, here's a list of defensemen who are "worse" than him:

John Carlson
PK SUBBAN
KEITH YANDLE
DION PHANEUF
ERIK KARLSSON
BRENT BURNS
Carl Gunnarsson
Dennis Wideman
Dan Boyle
DREW DOUGHTY
DAN GIRARDI
ZDENO CHARA
Jay Bouwmeester

I kind of wish Carle was a little higher up on the turnover list, since it appears to be made up almost exclusively of top pairing defensemen, the majority of which are number one defensemen. If only Carle was as "bad" as Keith Yandle or Zdeno Chara or Dan Girardi or Drew Doughty.

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02-14-2012, 05:31 PM
  #200
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I have noticed over on the trade boards that Boston Bruins fans seem to be looking for a defenseman to put them over the top. If we were considering selling, what would flyers fans think about trading Timonen (and I guess we would probably add?) for Dougie Hamilton?

Not certain if Bruins fans would consider it, but I think two (maybe more) years of an elite #1 puck moving defenseman and power play QB for a top defense prospect who went #8 overall is pretty fair.

I think adding Timonen to that defense would pretty much make them an unbeatable team in the playoffs this year. And if they happened to pair him with Zdeno Chara, that would not even be fair.

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