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What if the New CBA allows an Amnesty?

View Poll Results: If the new CBA allows one Amnesty over the next few seasons I like it to be:
Pronger 16 34.04%
Bryzgalov 21 44.68%
Another Player (Please name) 2 4.26%
Nobody; hold onto option for a later season 8 17.02%
Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-14-2012, 10:45 AM
  #51
RJ8812
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Kimmo has not been very good lately. He has taken a huge step back the past two years. Suter would be a godsend for this team.
Suter is not worth $7.5m. Weber, sure, but not Suter

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02-14-2012, 10:50 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
Suter is not worth $7.5m. Weber, sure, but not Suter
He is worth 6-6.5M. You are not going to get him under 6.

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02-14-2012, 11:23 AM
  #53
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not true. having him on LTIR still means he takes up a contract spot, hurts us when it comes ot acquiring a player at the deadline, and also hurts us in the off season (10% rule)
Good point... I thought about the Banked Cap problem but didn't think about the Contract slot being taken up... nice catch there, the LTIR cannot address that.

EDIT: The 10% Off Season Rule hit is not as small a matter as it seems... when a majority of that leeway is used with one LTIR player, it could limit the opportunity to sign a player when available and look at the entire picture before finalizing the roster.


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Old
02-14-2012, 11:45 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by nitroglycerin View Post
He is worth 6-6.5M. You are not going to get him under 6.
I wouldnt give him more than $6.5m

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02-14-2012, 12:14 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Hextall89 View Post
It would have to be the 2nd. The NHL doesn't have the legal right to void a contract between two entities. It can, however, change the way that contract is treated against the salary cap.
This is only partly right. It would be the second because the NHLPA would insist on it, and the NHL does not have the legal right to unilaterally void the contract outside the CBA, but with the NHLPA's consent, it could certainly make contracts non-guaranteed (e.g., the NFL system, where a player can simply be cut, regardless of what's left on his contract).

EDIT: Realized my tone was a bit too definitive here. I am pretty certain this is the case, that with the consent of both the owners and NHLPA (e.g., through the CBA), existing contracts can be made non-guaranteed. This is from the perspective of an interested amateur in labor law, though, so if there are any "real" lawyers in the "room," I'll defer.


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02-14-2012, 12:16 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
I wouldnt give him more than $6.5m
Same. I get the feeling someone will throw him a contract worth 7+ on the first day of free agency though.

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02-14-2012, 12:40 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
I wouldnt give him more than $6.5m
Unfortunately Wiz's contract may dictate otherwise.

Suter is a better defenseman. Weber is more flashy. Bigger hitter, Bomb of a shot, and a RH shooter. But Suter is a better shutdown guy.

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02-14-2012, 12:42 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
If they don't have to use it right away, then don't use it right away.
This.

Much like the 76ers are doing with Elton Brand.

Before the Flyers cut anyone loose they need to see how things play out a bit more:

a) Will Bryz bounce back? Goalies (with some big exceptions) can be streaky from year to year. Remember when we could have had Tim Thomas for Simon Gagne's contract?
b) Pronger may recover (doubt it, but still)
c) Briere may blow up again in the playoffs (see "B")

If it is like the NBA where you get two years to make a decision then take your time.

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02-14-2012, 01:00 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
This is only partly right. It would be the second because the NHLPA would insist on it, and the NHL does not have the legal right to unilaterally void the contract outside the CBA, but with the NHLPA's consent, it could certainly make contracts non-guaranteed (e.g., the NFL system, where a player can simply be cut, regardless of what's left on his contract).

EDIT: Realized my tone was a bit too definitive here. I am pretty certain this is the case, that with the consent of both the owners and NHLPA (e.g., through the CBA), existing contracts can be made non-guaranteed. This is from the perspective of an interested amateur in labor law, though, so if there are any "real" lawyers in the "room," I'll defer.
Not a lawyer (and I don't play one on TV) and strictly away from the legal aspects of it... I don't see the NHLPA, or any other PA for that matter, ever,ever, ever agreeing to what the NFL players have to put up with... If the NFLPA had enough power, and the NFL Owners weren't so strong with such a cash cow operation as the NFL is, they would eliminate the non-guaranteed contracts. Even people who are strong on the management side and feel the players have too much power feel for the players who can be cut and lose a majority of their contracted salaries. Players make the best decision they can for their career and have to play out their contracts even when their situation ends up to benefit the Owners but the Owners can almost at will cut a player and keep all of the non-guaranteed portion of their contract... And the average NFL career is short (5 years?) -- IIRC only the top players can get a significant portion of their contract guaranteed -- IMO, the NHLPA would have to have their collective heads examined if they even considered such a situation... and after the examination they should be committed to an institution for the remainder of their natural lives.

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02-14-2012, 01:04 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
Not a lawyer (and I don't play one on TV) and strictly away from the legal aspects of it... I don't see the NHLPA, or any other PA for that matter, ever,ever, ever agreeing to what the NFL players have to put up with... If the NFLPA had enough power, and the NFL Owners weren't so strong with such a cash cow operation as the NFL is, they would eliminate the non-guaranteed contracts. Even people who are strong on the management side and feel the players have too much power feel for the players who can be cut and lose a majority of their contracted salaries. Players make the best decision they can for their career and have to play out their contracts even when their situation ends up to benefit the Owners but the Owners can almost at will cut a player and keep all of the non-guaranteed portion of their contract... And the average NFL career is short (5 years?) -- IIRC only the top players can get a significant portion of their contract guaranteed -- IMO, the NHLPA would have to have their collective heads examined if they even considered such a situation... and after the examination they should be committed to an institution for the remainder of their natural lives.
Oh I completely agree that it will never happen.

The question, though, is whether it could technically be done: In other words, could the NHL CBA make existing contracts non-guaranteed, or would they have to be grandfathered in?

I'm fairly sure its the former, but not positive.

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02-14-2012, 01:53 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Oh I completely agree that it will never happen.

The question, though, is whether it could technically be done: In other words, could the NHL CBA make existing contracts non-guaranteed, or would they have to be grandfathered in?

I'm fairly sure its the former, but not positive.
I would agree that the NHL/NHLPA could not alter existing binding legal contracts... that makes sense to me.


A question I brought up in an earlier post is; could the NHL/NHLPA CBA dictate that a team could unilaterally pay off (100%) of a remaining contract and in all practicality move a player with an existing No Move Clause off the team? ... I also stated that since the player would have all his money coming in, and also be able to add to it with income from a new contract with another organization, in all probability no player would contest it... No matter how much he would desire to stay with a team, it would be foolish to lose millions of dollars to do so... But is there a problem enacting such a rule?

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02-14-2012, 02:24 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Kimmo has not been very good lately. He has taken a huge step back the past two years. Suter would be a godsend for this team.
You're nuts my friend.

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02-14-2012, 02:33 PM
  #63
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Yeah, Timonen is actually having a fantastic season.

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02-14-2012, 02:41 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
If Suter gets $7.5m I say **** that. He isnt worth more than Timonen IMO
The trend has been loooong contracts and (relatively) small cap hits for a while now. I wouldn't be too surprised if Suter signs somewhere for the next decade or so with a cap hit around 6M, possibly slightly lower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Kimmo has not been very good lately. He has taken a huge step back the past two years. Suter would be a godsend for this team.
I agree with the last part, but definitely not with the first two sentences. Without Pronger, it's a bit of a problem that we can't play Timonen as much as this team needs. He's not capable of logging 25-27 minutes a night anymore, but he's having a really strong season so far.

I'm one of those who hold Suter as a better player than Weber in the end, so I would pony up a lot of cash and years to get him on my team.




As for amnesty clause in the next cba... as long as we're fantasizing, I prefer to do so about a healthy Pronger and a Bryzgalov back to form...

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02-14-2012, 03:12 PM
  #65
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.........As for amnesty clause in the next cba... as long as we're fantasizing, I prefer to do so about a healthy Pronger and a Bryzgalov back to form...
Certainly having a healthy Pronger as a Captain and THE leader and Bryz playing up to his Number One Goalie status would put the Flyers where Homer had them slotted to be coming into the season and as contenders for the Cup over the next couple~few seasons.

While the Amnesty may seem like a 'fantasy', it is actually something that is a real possibility and was basically what was in place after the last Lockout... and then it was a limited use it or lose it deal and not for only one player IIRC... As I see it, it is a correction of Organizations Cap levels going into a new CBA with new rules... It allows teams to correct a mistake -- or maybe mistakeS -- that hamper them in competing under the new CBA... The NBA has installed one in their new CBA and it is IMO more than mere fantasy, but is indeed speculation... Wishing for a healthy Pronger is wonderful, but a Pronger to the level of the one coming into this season probably will not occur... Hoping that Bryz plays up to his high Cap hit over the next eight-1/2 years is a nice hope... Both are beyond the control of Homer and the Organization; if handed an Amnesty option/options, Homer & Co. can better control the Flyers fortunes by correcting either an awful twist of fate or a potentially bad long-term decision. That is what we are discussing here.

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02-14-2012, 05:02 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
Certainly having a healthy Pronger as a Captain and THE leader and Bryz playing up to his Number One Goalie status would put the Flyers where Homer had them slotted to be coming into the season and as contenders for the Cup over the next couple~few seasons.

While the Amnesty may seem like a 'fantasy', it is actually something that is a real possibility and was basically what was in place after the last Lockout... and then it was a limited use it or lose it deal and not for only one player IIRC... As I see it, it is a correction of Organizations Cap levels going into a new CBA with new rules... It allows teams to correct a mistake -- or maybe mistakeS -- that hamper them in competing under the new CBA... The NBA has installed one in their new CBA and it is IMO more than mere fantasy, but is indeed speculation... Wishing for a healthy Pronger is wonderful, but a Pronger to the level of the one coming into this season probably will not occur... Hoping that Bryz plays up to his high Cap hit over the next eight-1/2 years is a nice hope... Both are beyond the control of Homer and the Organization; if handed an Amnesty option/options, Homer & Co. can better control the Flyers fortunes by correcting either an awful twist of fate or a potentially bad long-term decision. That is what we are discussing here.
Yes, but after the lockout in 04-05 quite a few teams had to trim salary to get under the new salary cap iirc. I think half the league had higher payrolls in 03-04 than what the cap was set at for the 05-06 season. We had a payroll of 65.1M in 03-04 I believe, and the cap for 05-06 was 39M. Teams had to be given a chance to trim their payrolls for the new system to work. Unless the new CBA drastically reduces the cap for some reason, I don't see why (the rich) teams would be given this opportunity in a league that's been going on and on about parity since the latest lockout.

Sorry if I came off as a bit snarky though, it's just that I'm getting a bit tired of all the doom and gloom here lately.

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02-14-2012, 05:50 PM
  #67
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Yes, but after the lockout in 04-05 quite a few teams had to trim salary to get under the new salary cap iirc. I think half the league had higher payrolls in 03-04 than what the cap was set at for the 05-06 season. We had a payroll of 65.1M in 03-04 I believe, and the cap for 05-06 was 39M. Teams had to be given a chance to trim their payrolls for the new system to work. Unless the new CBA drastically reduces the cap for some reason, I don't see why (the rich) teams would be given this opportunity in a league that's been going on and on about parity since the latest lockout.

Sorry if I came off as a bit snarky though, it's just that I'm getting a bit tired of all the doom and gloom here lately.
No, I didn't take it as even a little snarky... and I think it is a very good and valid point.

The teams back then though did not sign many players -- I remember the Flyers only signing Primeau as he didn't test FA waters and signed cheap after his highest career point... they didn't offer any other legitimate offers and even let Recchi walk even though he wanted to retire here and probably would have given a discount -- And the players all took a 10% salary cut across the board and the escrow stared... all of which reduced salaries and then the teams gave lower contracts to fill in players on the rosters and had a top tier cap so the stars made less... also the Amnesty was implemented and I believe they were able to pay off multiple players without buyout penalties over a brief period of time before the season.

Yes, you may be right that the situation is much different... but the reduction of maybe one Amnesty is also not nearly as much. To me I can see this as a way to allow the teams near the Cap top limit to be able to have more flexibility... and it would be the Big Market teams that would be the ones more capable to afford taking the losses (such as maybe Bryz's). Personally I believe they will be doing a lot to change how teams manage the Cap and there will be loopholes sown up...I could see the 35+ players maybe being Capped at what they are paid, and maybe one year at a time salaries... and more/stricter limits to long-term deals that allows younger players to take their money earlier... and IR/LTIR and waiver changes... or maybe give more roster flexibility... and a one shot error correction could go a long way to get teams better on track.

OR... maybe little changes and there is no Amnesty... I just thought it was an interesting subject and could be used to help the Flyers and other teams with things that went South and effects them for a while going forward.

And I'm sorry if I came off as doom and gloomish

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02-14-2012, 10:13 PM
  #68
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Wait until the Islanders amnesty the Yashin deal. Then trade for DiPietro and Tavares, and amnesty DiPietro.

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02-14-2012, 11:33 PM
  #69
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Wait until the Islanders amnesty the Yashin deal. Then trade for DiPietro and Tavares, and amnesty DiPietro.
Won't have enough contract slots.

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02-15-2012, 07:51 AM
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Won't have enough contract slots.
Pshht! Begone with your petty details!

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02-15-2012, 08:09 AM
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Wait until the Islanders amnesty the Yashin deal. Then trade for DiPietro and Tavares, and amnesty DiPietro.
How can they amnesty the Yashin contract when they've already bought him out? You can't buy out a buy out...

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02-15-2012, 01:32 PM
  #72
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How can they amnesty the Yashin contract when they've already bought him out? You can't buy out a buy out...
Garth Snow has the ability and the gall to sign him again to a insane long-term contract and then apply the Amnesty Rule to him... and, if there is no Amnesty in the new CBA Garth can buy him out all over again.

These are the Islanders, Dude.

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