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Old
02-15-2012, 01:45 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by DuckJet View Post
Am I the only one who DIDN'T like Blake on the first line? He was muscled off the puck so many times I lost count. At one point he was literally pressured from the faceoff dot all the way outside the blue line and he didn't even try to get a pass away. I liked Hagman on the top line more.
The top line has looked better in the last two games then it's looked in a long time. Yes, Blake gets pushed off the puck, but his speed on the forecheck created so much space tonight. Perry missed at least two grade A chances that he usually makes, and Harding had a great save on Getz. Hagman is a little better at the cycling aspect, but Blake's speed has given the other guys more space IMO.

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02-15-2012, 01:53 AM
  #177
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I think you're generalizing things a bit too much, or putting too much emphasis into stats.

Cam Fowler has the greater responsibility of the two. He's getting 1st pairing minutes, seeing the tougher match-ups, and looks like he has been asked to put a greater focus on defense. On top of that, Fowler has become Boudreau's top puck-mover, and was in that same role when Carlyle left. Furthermore, Fowler is expected to create the offense on his pairing, and consequently he's also the guy opposing teams key on. He's the go-to guy, where Sbisa has Visnovsky to lean on offensively, and Lubo is the focus of that pairing.

Sbisa has taken big steps this season, and I think he's playing some of his best hockey... but Fowler started this season as our best defenseman. Not the hottest, or the one with the most potential, but the best. He has already shown the ability to take over games, and dictate the flow, which is a skill we have never seen from Sbisa. If you want to know a big reason why Fowler is seen to have #1 potential while Sbisa doesn't, that's it right there. Sbisa is more of a complementary player. A talented one, no doubt, but he just doesn't have the same upside.

Fowler has had his struggles this season, but he's shown more often than not that he deserves the responsibility he's getting. With young players, though, that kind of responsibility means you can expect more mistakes, and those mistakes can hurt more. That's just the nature of the game. When you're thrown into the deep end, sometimes you're going to flounder a bit. It doesn't get much deeper than top pairing responsibility.

The only area Sbisa has a significant edge over Fowler right now is in the physicality department. He's the more physically mature of the two, and his game utilizes that aspect more. That also makes him better equpped to handle the rigors of the NHL right now. Defensively, they are a lot closer than I think you realize, though Sbisa's physical edge certainly adds something to his defensive play, and offensively Fowler just does more. He's more creative offensively, makes better passes, sees the ice better, and just seems to think the game faster than most.
I agree about all the Fowler aspects, I think he's fitting into his role very quickly, which was surely not an easy thing to do for a sophomore.
The only thing I critisized him for was his ton of PP time (which isn't even his fault ), and I'm still thinking this should be reduced by a lot.
And I don't like the comparisons with Scotty, simply because one was an elite Dman while the other is on course to put up his 2nd consecutive -25 season.
Don't get me wrong, he has all the tools, but it's not like anything's guaranteed. There is a lot to learn for him, on both ends of the ice.
As for Sbisa, you could compare Luca with Beauch. Not quite on the same level yet, but in terms of playing style.
The difference is that Sbisa is playing in his 3rd NHL season while Beauch had his 1st at 25yo!
And you have to agree that we all called Beauch an average guy inflected by the tremendous play of Scotty a few years ago. Do you also agree that we could call him a solid #2 Dman as of now?
See, that's the progress I can imagine Sbisa to make, and it's not even the absolute maximum of his potential.


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Old
02-15-2012, 02:09 AM
  #178
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Totaly agree but would you "downgrade" Beauchemin? Sbisa is more or less at the same role on his pairing.
On an iPad, so the multi-quote thing owns me. I'll probably address the rest later.

Bottom line though? No way. Beauchemin is one of those players you need. Papaspud said it earlier, and I agree, that it's tough to compare the two given their roles. I think Sbisa could be one of those players for Anaheim, and I dig that about him. It's all about playing within his game.

Still though, if we have to compare them, or decide which is better and has more potential, the decision is an easy one for me. I'm just glad Anaheim has both of them, because that gives me every reason to feel good about Anaheim's future.

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02-15-2012, 02:14 AM
  #179
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I'm just going to ignore the fact that as a guy who named himself a Swiss Expert, you have natural bias toward's swiss born players.
And you have a USA flag right under your avatar, so I'll ignore that "fact" too.
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When did I say that Sbisa can ONLY be a 3rd or 4th? I said that's his safe plateau. His ceiling is a first pairing defender and I have maintained that stance since we received him from Philadelphia.
It wasn't you who said that.
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If you wanna go Hardy Boys on me and research all my posts about Sbisa, you will see that I have always said this in his defense. Obviously at age 21 he has the potential to get better.

Fowler has the higher upside and I have no bias here. If I'm running a team and an expansion draft causes me to pick between Fowler and Sbisa, I pick Fowler without even a second thought.
...and here we go again. It's not about potential, it was about performance right now. You said only Sbisa parents would think he's better than Cam, which is very debatable as of now.
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He's 20 years old and playing on our first pairing and matching up against the league's top forwards every night. Obviously there are going to be mistakes there, and with the RPG line (who he is iced with for the most part) and the PP struggling so much, it's not a big surprise that his numbers have declined a bit. He's also focusing on defense more. Sbisa got burned 4 times tonight. Fowler only got burned once and he still recovered in time to take away the scoring chance. And he singlehandedly prevented a 2 on one.
Fowler had a good game, while Sbisa didn't, so what? Does that have anything to do with our discussion? In most of the last few games, Fowler was the one who got burned.
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You can make the case that Fowler has STILL had the better year. Sbisa HAS been more solid. But his recently inflated numbers are a direct result of his new partner. Anyone playing with Lubo is going to have more points. You think Lydman having career point totals last year was some kind of offensive revelation on his part? No. Not really.
This is just nonsense. Tell me why Filip Kuba has a below average production this year, despite playing with the league's best offensive Dman? I'm even sure you score more points playing with a rock solid Kronwall, Girardi than with Mike Green or Dustin Byfuglien.
PS: funny thing is that you proved wrong your own point. Lydman didn't have career points last year, his points were almost exactly the same as with the flames and the sabres, despite his partner had a career year and lead the league in points for Dmen.
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But I'd agree that overall, in light of Fowler's growing pains, Sbisa has taken the reins and run with them, and I'm very happy with his improvement. They're both, as you said, very talented defensemen and the future looks bright with them as well as Schultz and Vatanen coming over.


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Old
02-15-2012, 02:23 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by swissexpert View Post
And you have a USA flag right under your avatar, so I'll ignore that "fact" too.
It wasn't you who said that. ...and here we go again. It's not about potential, it was about performance right now. You said only Sbisa parents would think he's better than Cam, which is very debatable as of now. Fowler had a good game, while Sbisa didn't, so what?Does that have anything to do with our discussion? This is just nonsense. Tell me why Filip Kuba has a below average production this year, despite playing with the league's best offensive Dman? I'm even sure you score more points playing with a rock solid Kronwall, Girardi than with Mike Green or Dustin Byfuglien.
Fowler is basically Canadian and I have no bias toward my hockey players all my favorites are either Canadian or Finnish.

Filip Kuba sucks. Bad example. Terrible example actually. At one point he was considered to be the worst player in the NHL.

No Fowler's game tonight has nothing to do with the big picture I'll grant you that. I'm just pointing out that there are holes and mistakes in Sbisa's game right now.

And I didn't say anything about anyone saying anything about Sbisa's play RIGHT NOW. Read my post again. I made a general statement about the consensus opinion of who is the better of the two players. I never said anything about the consensus of who is playing better RIGHT NOW. If I were to ask the entire fanbase, the results would be blurrier if I asked who was better in general.

I never made this about who was better right now. My original beef is who is better overall, and I happened to throw in my own opinion on the topic of who is better RIGHT NOW because the topic came up. But in general I've been debating who is better in general.

I really don't even see why this is such a big deal. If you asked every person in Ducks management about who they'd rather keep around in my proposed event of a expansion draft, I'd be shocked if any of them said Sbisa. He's good, but Cam has higher upside. His upside is higher than most young defensemen in the LEAGUE, not just our own blueline pipeline.

Weird thought, but I'd **** my pants if you were actually Sbisa.

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02-15-2012, 02:37 AM
  #181
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When You say Y is better than X, it's about their strengths as of now and not potential.
Or do you also say Yakupov is better than Iginla? I doubt anyone would trade Nail for Iginla, though.
We never really had a discussion about who of Cam or Luca have higher upside, because every one who knows the game of hockey votes for Fowler as of now. So it makes no sense that you wanted to prove who has the higher ceiling.
There are holes in Sbisa's game? Wow, that's disgusting, I've never seen a 21yo Dman making mistakes.
Exactly, Kuba sucks. Tell me why he sucks even more playing with the league leader in D-points. Or look up your own Lydman argument again, it's just proving my point that a very offensive D partner doesn't help your own production.
And yeah, I'm Luca Sbisa. I post on hfboards Ducks GDT's with my smartphone during intermission breaks.


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Old
02-15-2012, 02:39 AM
  #182
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NHL.com says this is Duck's first win when trailing after two periods this season.

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Old
02-15-2012, 02:51 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by swissexpert View Post
I agree about all the Fowler aspects, I think he's fitting into his role very quickly, which was surely not an easy thing to do for a sophomore.
The only thing I critisized him for was his ton of PP time (which isn't even his fault ), and I'm still thinking this should be reduced by a lot.
And I don't like the comparisons with Scotty, simply because one was an elite Dman while the other is on course to put up his 2nd consecutive -25 season.
Don't get me wrong, he has all the tools, but it's not like anything's guaranteed. There is a lot to learn for him, on both ends of the ice.
As for Sbisa, you could compare Luca with Beauch. Not quite on the same level yet, but in terms of playing style.
The difference is that Sbisa is playing in his 3rd NHL season while Beauch had his 1st at 25yo!
And you have to agree that we all called him an average guy inflected by the tremendous play of Scotty a few years ago. Do you also agree that we could call him a solid #2 Dman as of now?
See, that's the progress I can imagine Sbisa to make, and it's not even the absolute maximum of his potential.

Sbisa has handily outplayed Fowler for two months. i feel as if Fowlers defensive game has improved. but clear regression on PP and carrying the puck past the redline

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02-15-2012, 02:58 AM
  #184
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When You say Y is better than X, it's about their strengths as of now and not potential.

Are you trying to say that discussions about potential are non existent? I personally believe that Cam is better now AND in terms of potential. But Cam's potential is higher, and therefore the his trade value is higher. That's where this all started. It actually started in a trade proposal thread. Where DaDucks said Carle+some scrub was a great deal.

Or do you also say Yakupov is better than Iginla? I doubt anyone would trade Nail for Iginla, though.

Actually...it's very possible that someone would trade an aging star for the first overall pick. The only thing is Columbus wouldn't do it because it doesn't help their future. The statement should be. Doubt anyone accepts Iginla FOR Nail.

We never really had a discussion about who of Cam or Luca have higher upside, because every one who knows the game of hockey votes for Fowler as of now. So it makes no sense that you wanted to prove who has the higher ceiling.

And this conversation has been ongoing longer than you have been involved. You kind of just attacked me mid argument. I don't really intend to prove who has the higher ceiling. The whole world of hockey KNOWS who has higher potential.

There are holes in Sbisa's game? Wow, that's disgusting, I've never seen a 21yo Dman making mistakes.

The same can be said for DaDucks ripping the holes in Fowler's game. Relax. Even my statement shouldn't have been this inflammatory. I just pointed out that they BOTH have flaws. Take it easy

Exactly, Kuba sucks. Tell me why he sucks even more playing with the league leader in D-points. Or look up your own Lydman argument again, it's just proving my point that a very offensive D partner doesn't help your own production.

Lydman HAS offensive talent. As does Sbisa. You're trying to find the worst in the things I'm saying. I'm not saying Sbisa has no offensive talent, I'm just saying the production has spiked because of the player he is playing with. Kuba has almost negative offensive talent. I expect this production to become the norm from Luca when his game matures. But I think THIS year it's a product of the man he is playing with.

And yeah, I'm Luca Sbisa. I post on hfboards Ducks GDT's with my smartphone during intermission breaks.

Poop. Pants.

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02-15-2012, 03:00 AM
  #185
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Sbisa has handily outplayed Fowler for two months. i feel as if Fowlers defensive game has improved. but clear regression on PP and carrying the puck past the redline
I agree with everything but that word.

Also it's not exactly his fault that the powerplay has regressed. The whole unit has played like garbage. Really, he seems to be the only one trying.

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02-15-2012, 03:20 AM
  #186
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To suggest Sbisa has "handily" out-played Fowler is a gross exaggeration. Sbisa is playing his best hockey, and Fowler is slumping a bit, and Fowler is still doing plenty of things better. If Sbisa were out-playing Fowler -that- much then you'd see Boudreau making bigger adjustments. The fact is, the reason Boudreau hasn't is because Fowler is still playing pretty well and is too valuable in his role, a role Sbisa isn't cut out for.

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02-15-2012, 03:22 AM
  #187
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Deserved and important win.

PP still blows, but we could easily of had 4+ goals on another night. Minnesota goalies always have the luck against us, must of hit the post at least 10 times so far against them this season.

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02-15-2012, 03:31 AM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckJet View Post

Are you trying to say that discussions about potential are non existent?
In terms of Cam vs. Sbisa, yes. I think there is no discussion of who has more talent.
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And this conversation has been ongoing longer than you have been involved. You kind of just attacked me mid argument.
Sorry if I hurt your feelings, I didn't try to attack anyone. I just thought your statement that only massive Sbisa homers would think he's better than Cam, is very ignorant, because AS OF NOW, Sbisa is slightly better than Fowler, which is debatable.
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The same can be said for DaDucks ripping the holes in Fowler's game. Relax. Even my statement shouldn't have been this inflammatory. I just pointed out that they BOTH have flaws. Take it easy
I'm not sure who of us takes this too serious
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Lydman HAS offensive talent. As does Sbisa. You're trying to find the worst in the things I'm saying. I'm not saying Sbisa has no offensive talent, I'm just saying the production has spiked because of the player he is playing with. Kuba has almost negative offensive talent. I expect this production to become the norm from Luca when his game matures. But I think THIS year it's a product of the man he is playing with.
Nope again. I've had the discussion with Sojourn at the last game.
-coach
-confidence
-ice time
Those are the facts that lead to Sbisa's lately run. Vis isn't a better D partner to be productive than Beauch, I'll stay by that.
I'm too lazy to research who Lydman's co-defender where over the years, but he scored similar points as when he was paired with the league leader in D points.

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02-15-2012, 03:37 AM
  #189
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K then. I've been debating over two players that I love for the last two days. I'm done.

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02-15-2012, 03:49 AM
  #190
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swissexpert, Lydman is a bad example. He's a true stay-home defenseman. His production is consistent because he gets most of his points the same way, regardless of who he plays with.

Sbisa actually has some offensive talent, and a willingness to use it. He's also a solid puck mover. If Lydman were a forward he'd be a Rob Niedermayer/Pahlsson type of player. Sbisa would be a top six forward. Who do you think will be better equipped to take advantage of playing with, say... Ryan Getzlaf? Obviously the top six forward.

That's the situation Sbisa finds himself in right now. Yes, he's getting more ice time, and he definitely looks more confident, but I think you're just putting blinders on if you don't see the benefit of playing with one of the top offensive defensemen in the NHL. Not only do opposing players key in on Lubo over Sbisa, but Lubo's own offensive ability means that, so long as Sbisa involves himself offensively, there is going to be some crossover in points. You're listing some facts but completely brushing off others as irrelevant.

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02-15-2012, 03:49 AM
  #191
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K then. I've been debating over two players that I love for the last two days. I'm done.
This is what I said on the last page

There are not many more useless debates than how much difference is between the potential of your sexiest young player compared to another young stud of your team. Just enjoy watching them play and grow into an awesome core of our future.

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02-15-2012, 04:05 AM
  #192
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This is what I said on the last page

There are not many more useless debates than how much difference is between the potential of your sexiest young player compared to another young stud of your team. Just enjoy watching them play and grow into an awesome core of our future.
Schultz is better than both of them


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02-15-2012, 04:10 AM
  #193
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swissexpert, Lydman is a bad example. He's a true stay-home defenseman. His production is consistent because he gets most of his points the same way, regardless of who he plays with.

Sbisa actually has some offensive talent, and a willingness to use it. He's also a solid puck mover. If Lydman were a forward he'd be a Rob Niedermayer/Pahlsson type of player. Sbisa would be a top six forward.
I'm pretty sure you were the one who corrected me when I called him a potential two-way defender earlier this season.
Why should he be a top-6 forward kind of Dman now? This would be someone who looks horrible when his partner isn't playing solid. Or as a foward, someone who's invisible in bad games and only goes on a stretch when his linemates produce.
In fact, most of Sbisas points/assists are not directly inflected by Vis. Some are outlet passes like that one yesterday, some are shots that got redirected/scored on his rebound. Then, there are some crappy 2nd assists where he didn't even know he got one.
But after all, I think he could do all of them no matter if there was Visnovsky or Beauch on his side.
I even got the feeling that it's easier to make a risky play/rush when you know Franky's defending rather than Lubo's skating in the O-zone with you

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02-15-2012, 04:23 AM
  #194
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To suggest Sbisa has "handily" out-played Fowler is a gross exaggeration. Sbisa is playing his best hockey, and Fowler is slumping a bit, and Fowler is still doing plenty of things better. If Sbisa were out-playing Fowler -that- much then you'd see Boudreau making bigger adjustments. The fact is, the reason Boudreau hasn't is because Fowler is still playing pretty well and is too valuable in his role, a role Sbisa isn't cut out for.
Sbisa= 3+10 for 13 points and +8 in his last his last 23
Fowler= 0+3 for 3 points and a -7 in his last 23

FOWLER GETS ALL THE FIRST PP UNIT MINS.

Sbisa has completely outplayed him over the last 2 months, it's not even close, look at the even strength minutes, the only big difference is Fowlers PP time

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02-15-2012, 04:25 AM
  #195
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Big game tomorrow guys. A win and we're only 6 back. I think we get the tie breaker on just about anyone. Plenty of time left. Just beat the Pens for the love of God. That win would also gain us a good deal of credibility.

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02-15-2012, 04:42 AM
  #196
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Big game tomorrow guys. A win and we're only 6 back. I think we get the tie breaker on just about anyone. Plenty of time left. Just beat the Pens for the love of God. That win would also gain us a good deal of credibility.
[jinx post had to be deleted by the author]


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02-15-2012, 04:44 AM
  #197
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Delete delete delete, edit edit edit!

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