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The Official 2012 Draft Thread: Part IV | "Operation Dumba Drop"

View Poll Results: Which defenseman do you like most?
Ryan Murray 119 56.40%
Jacob Trouba 8 3.79%
Matt Dumba 45 21.33%
Griffin Reinhart 28 13.27%
Cody Ceci 1 0.47%
Morgan Rielly 10 4.74%
Voters: 211. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-15-2012, 01:28 AM
  #26
Soundwave
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It's kinda sad but I'm starting to look at the 2013 draft now as well, lol.

We need so much help.

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02-15-2012, 01:32 AM
  #27
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It's kinda sad but I'm starting to look at the 2013 draft now as well, lol.

We need so much help.
Its all good. That's what their plan is Im sure of it. Mackinnon, Shinkaruk, Monahan, Lazar, lots of good Canadian kids up front available next year. That's another reason why I want the dman with our top pick this year.

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02-15-2012, 01:38 AM
  #28
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Its all good. That's what their plan is Im sure of it. Mackinnon, Shinkaruk, Monahan, Lazar, lots of good Canadian kids up front available next year. That's another reason why I want the dman with our top pick this year.
I just hope Hall/Eberle/RNH can take another year of the suckage.

At some point I think it has to poison the well, it's just inevitable.

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02-15-2012, 01:49 AM
  #29
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Straight line I agree, Alzners seems quicker laterally though.

In Alzners first 30 games NHL he took 1 penalty, Murray takes almost no unnecessary penalties as well. Another similarity.

I hope the Oilers draft Dumba though. He's the complete package, anyone caught up with his lack of size is stupid. Just like people concerned with RNH's size last year.
Again agree with everything you have to say, but I also think the lateral mobility is something prospects seem to overlook/don't work on enough until they get to the pro-game and see how important it is. I think both Murray and Dumba have such an effortless stride/fluidness to their skating that this will be remedied.

Seeing as how you're a Caps fan, (lets say hypothetically the Oilers land 1st overall) what would you think about 1st overall for Alzner and one of your 1st rders? Russians seem to be the big thing in WAS (Reagan is rolling over in his grave right now), Yakupov certainly seemed to have chemistry with Kuznetsov, is that fair value?

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02-15-2012, 01:58 AM
  #30
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The other thing about Dumba is really who was the last guy to put on an Oiler jersey that actually relished physical contact?

This guy?



Look ... Hall, Eberle, RNH, MPS, Gagner, Klefbom, etc. ... all these guys are nice.

But y'know, what are we building here? A team of good manners? Sure it'll be great when we're playing teams based on skill, but what happens when you're in the midst of an UGLY playoff war? You don't want a team full of sugar. You need some spice. Some dynamite.

Sometimes you need someone who is going to go out there and just demolish someone. When's the last time an Oiler player did this to another team's star?



And it apparently Dumba has a pretty awesome outlet pass too.

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02-15-2012, 02:22 AM
  #31
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The other thing about Dumba is really who was the last guy to put on an Oiler jersey that actually relished physical contact?

This guy?



Look ... Hall, Eberle, RNH, MPS, Gagner, Klefbom, etc. ... all these guys are nice.

But y'know, what are we building here? A team of good manners? Sure it'll be great when we're playing teams based on skill, but what happens when you're in the midst of an UGLY playoff war? You don't want a team full of sugar. You need some spice. Some dynamite.

Sometimes you need someone who is going to go out there and just demolish someone. When's the last time an Oiler player did this to another team's star?



And it apparently Dumba has a pretty awesome outlet pass too.
Only thing that scares me with Dumba is his skating stride. The kid will need to improve that before he gets to the next level. He has everything else you'd want in a prospect and his size won't be an issue in a few years.

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02-15-2012, 02:23 AM
  #32
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When's the last time an Oiler player did this to another team's star?
Sutton on Skinner.

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02-15-2012, 02:24 AM
  #33
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Sutton on Skinner.
Fair enough. It's too bad Andy is 37 years old and really won't be part of the Oilers rebuild in the long term.

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02-15-2012, 02:45 AM
  #34
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Again agree with everything you have to say, but I also think the lateral mobility is something prospects seem to overlook/don't work on enough until they get to the pro-game and see how important it is. I think both Murray and Dumba have such an effortless stride/fluidness to their skating that this will be remedied.

Seeing as how you're a Caps fan, (lets say hypothetically the Oilers land 1st overall) what would you think about 1st overall for Alzner and one of your 1st rders? Russians seem to be the big thing in WAS (Reagan is rolling over in his grave right now), Yakupov certainly seemed to have chemistry with Kuznetsov, is that fair value?
It's probably alright value wise. But it'd be a huge step back for the Capitals as a team. Alzner a rock something the Caps have been waiting for since Ovechkin arrived.

The Capitals rebuild was a lot like the Oilers currently is going. For years the Capitals didn't have the defense and had the forwards and had to wait for Green, Carlson, Alzner, Orlov and Schultz to develop. So I don't really see them dealing defense now that it's finally decent.

With Hall, Nuge and Eberle others the Oilers in a lot of ways doing the same thing waiting for Klefbom,Marincin, Gernat whoever else to develop.

It didn't work out great for the Capitals hopefully it does for the Oilers. When you have elite players wasting there prime is painful

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02-15-2012, 03:03 AM
  #35
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It's kinda sad but I'm starting to look at the 2013 draft now as well, lol.

We need so much help.
Hell I've been looking ahead to 2013 for over a year now. Yakupov and MacKinnon in Oilers silks is my dream come true.

Ya I admit we need defense somewhere ... but you just gotta pick those franchise caliber future all-star forwards if you have a shot at them.

2013 is looking REALLY good for top end forwards... MacKinnon, Barkov, Shinkaruk and Monahan are looking like they could be phenomenal and there are several other GREAT looking F and D prospects as well. I know it always seems like "next year" is always better than "this year", but 2013 does look like it will be a very strong draft, especially for forwards.

Always fun looking into the future and daydreaming how good some of those prospects would look on the Oilers in the future on their dynasty-to-be.

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02-15-2012, 03:17 AM
  #36
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The other thing about Dumba is really who was the last guy to put on an Oiler jersey that actually relished physical contact?

This guy?

The difference is Pronger kept his positioning and roughed guys up along the boards or in front of the net. He wasn't really a big open ice hitter. Pronger also logged a TON of minutes in all situations, being a complete stud in his own zone while moving the puck up to the forwards. Not exactly something Dumba is known for.

If you're looking for nasty, physical players, they don't need to be your superstars. Detroit is a good example of this.

I'm not a Dumba hater. He's really exciting to watch with the big hits and offensive rushes. I know some people are worried about his size, but that's not an issue in my mind. My concern is, can he become "the guy" you lean on defensively? I heard he had a great tourney recently (u18?) where he helped shut down some big guns, but every time I see him play, he really struggles in his own zone. That's a huge problem. Maybe he develops it and becomes the best Dman in this draft by far, or maybe he has to ride the pine in the final minute of a game since he can't be trusted. Hard to predict with players this young. But I'm of the school where you want your best players to play a lot in all situations. So you can see my concern.

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02-15-2012, 03:20 AM
  #37
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The difference is Pronger kept his positioning and roughed guys up along the boards or in front of the net. He wasn't really a big open ice hitter. Pronger also logged a TON of minutes in all situations, being a complete stud in his own zone while moving the puck up to the forwards. Not exactly something Dumba is known for.

If you're looking for nasty, physical players, they don't need to be your superstars. Detroit is a good example of this.

I'm not a Dumba hater. He's really exciting to watch with the big hits and offensive rushes. I know some people are worried about his size, but that's not an issue in my mind. My concern is, can he become "the guy" you lean on defensively? I heard he had a great tourney recently (u18?) where he helped shut down some big guns, but every time I see him play, he really struggles in his own zone. That's a huge problem. Maybe he develops it and becomes the best Dman in this draft by far, or maybe he has to ride the pine in the final minute of a game since he can't be trusted. Hard to predict with players this young. But I'm of the school where you want your best players to play a lot in all situations. So you can see my concern.
No one in this draft is as good as Pronger of course, just saying -- the Oilers have not had a single player that really likes to rattle someone's bones for the longest time.

Certainly not a core player.

That aspect that Dumba brings to the table is something the Oilers certainly lack in.

Hall + Eberle + RNH + Murray ... they're nice. Problem is, maybe too damn nice.

Honestly whatever d-man we draft is likely going to crap the bed defensively quite a bit for the first couple of years either way. Fowler does it all the time in Anaheim, even (gasp!) Larsson does it in Jersey. An 18/19/20/21 year-old is not going to step in and be a rock on your blue line. They're more like puppies ... they're going to **** and pee all over the place, it's just inevitable. Sure they can contribute, but in a close game if one of the Sedins wants to make them look stupid -- odds are they are going to win that battle of wills.

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02-15-2012, 03:30 AM
  #38
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No one in this draft is as good as Pronger of course, just saying -- the Oilers have not had a single player that really likes to rattle someone's bones for the longest time.

Certainly not a core player.

That aspect that Dumba brings to the table is something the Oilers certainly lack in.

Hall + Eberle + RNH + Murray ... they're nice. Problem is, maybe too damn nice.

Honestly whatever d-man we draft is likely going to crap the bed defensively quite a bit for the first couple of years either way. Fowler does it all the time in Anaheim, even (gasp!) Larsson does it in Jersey. An 18/19/20/21 year-old is not going to step in and be a rock on your blue line. They're more like puppies ... they're going to **** and pee all over the place, it's just inevitable.
We could definitely use some mean guys in our lineup. If it comes from your star players, great...if not, you can always find some sandpaper in your depth is all I'm saying.

And yep, rookies will always struggle as they adjust to the NHL game. But I'm talking about these guys in their prime. When we're relying on them to help us win a cup. Who's going to be a rock for us?

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02-15-2012, 03:35 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by JJTopper View Post
The difference is Pronger kept his positioning and roughed guys up along the boards or in front of the net. He wasn't really a big open ice hitter. Pronger also logged a TON of minutes in all situations, being a complete stud in his own zone while moving the puck up to the forwards. Not exactly something Dumba is known for.
Sorry, but I have to chime in here. This is 100% false. Dumba brings a physical game all over the ice, along the boards, in the corners, in front of the net, he isnt just an open ice hitter.

He also logs the most crazy minutes I have seen in quite some time, perhaps ever. Ive witnessed with my own eyes, and have had others corroborate Dumba being out on the ice for four to five minutes straight. Last Rebels game I saw Red Deer ran with four d for a majority of the game and Dumba was out on the ice every other shift.


Quote:
I'm not a Dumba hater. He's really exciting to watch with the big hits and offensive rushes. I know some people are worried about his size, but that's not an issue in my mind. My concern is, can he become "the guy" you lean on defensively? I heard he had a great tourney recently (u18?) where he helped shut down some big guns, but every time I see him play, he really struggles in his own zone. That's a huge problem. Maybe he develops it and becomes the best Dman in this draft by far, or maybe he has to ride the pine in the final minute of a game since he can't be trusted. Hard to predict with players this young. But I'm of the school where you want your best players to play a lot in all situations. So you can see my concern.
This is also dubious. He is relied upon in every situation by the Rebels, pp, pk, es, they dont hide him at the end of tight games either. Yes, he is still prone to gaffes in his own end, and truth be told it is probably the weakest part of his game, but he has improved quite a bit in this area from last year to this year.

He does play in ALL situations. To suggest otherwise is just flat out false.

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02-15-2012, 03:38 AM
  #40
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drafting a dman with a top 3 pick is borderline retarded
the past few drafts have proven with fowler and larsson dropping so low way lower than expected that you the other teams are gunning for explosive offensive forwards. if we want one of the dmen, then we trade down from #3 to #6 and have them include a top d prospect as well that way its a 2 for 1

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02-15-2012, 03:43 AM
  #41
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Sorry, but I have to chime in here. This is 100% false. Dumba brings a physical game all over the ice, along the boards, in the corners, in front of the net, he isnt just an open ice hitter.

He also logs the most crazy minutes I have seen in quite some time, perhaps ever. Ive witnessed with my own eyes, and have had others corroborate Dumba being out on the ice for four to five minutes straight. Last Rebels game I saw Red Deer ran with four d for a majority of the game and Dumba was out on the ice every other shift.


This is also dubious. He is relied upon in every situation by the Rebels, pp, pk, es, they dont hide him at the end of tight games either. Yes, he is still prone to gaffes in his own end, and truth be told it is probably the weakest part of his game, but he has improved quite a bit in this area from last year to this year.

He does play in ALL situations. To suggest otherwise is just flat out false.
Sorry, I think there's some miscommunication going on here. I know Dumba hits all over the ice. I was more pointing out that Pronger didn't really go for the big open ice hits, instead keeping his defensive positioning. Just talking about their different approach to physical play.

As for playing in all situations, of course he plays those minutes in the WHL. He's a big time prospect. I'm talking about when he finally translates his game to the NHL. Will he be a guy you play in all situations? Just because your team uses you that way in Jr, doesn't mean that will be your role in the NHL. As you said, his D zone play is a weak spot at this point in time.

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02-15-2012, 03:45 AM
  #42
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So what separates Ryan Murray from Griffin Reinhart?

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02-15-2012, 03:51 AM
  #43
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I want to draft Radek Faksa. He wants to be an Oiler.

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...d-they-oblige/

and I really like players that want to be here. I believe they have more heart to play for their favorite team.

Taylor Hall " I hope it went well...that's the team I really want to go too" - Oil Change

Jordan Eberle - We all know that the Oilers were his favorite team growing up. He said it in the interview after he was drafted.

RNH - I can't find it, but I remember a interview a year before the 2011 draft Hopkins being asked which team would like to be drafted too and I Know he said I would want to play for the oilers!

I know we need defencemen but If the Oilers can somehow manage to get this kid, I'd be pretty stoked!

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02-15-2012, 04:07 AM
  #44
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We could definitely use some mean guys in our lineup. If it comes from your star players, great...if not, you can always find some sandpaper in your depth is all I'm saying.

And yep, rookies will always struggle as they adjust to the NHL game. But I'm talking about these guys in their prime. When we're relying on them to help us win a cup. Who's going to be a rock for us?
For all we know our "rock" could be some kid drafted in the 3rd round.

Just because you're drafted high and have a lot of hype around you pre-draft doesn't mean you are going to walk into this league and scare anyone.

Viktor Hedman was certainly picked to be Tampa's rock on D and had 10x more hype than anyone in this draft ... and all he is right now is a rock, as in a rock sinking in water. He's not anchoring anything there.

I also don't really buy that your sandpaper can be "other" minor players. I think someone in your core group needs to have some hair on their private parts, lol. Otherwise you end up like a team ala San Jose. Nice skill. Nice guys. Will never win anything when it matters though. Gretzky and Kurri and Anderson and Coffey were all nice enough ... but Messier ... Messier would knock everyone of your teeth out with a vicious, dirty elbow if he could get away with it. Tikkanen was a nasty piece of work too. When you're throwing these guys out every other shift ... it drains the other team.


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02-15-2012, 04:20 AM
  #45
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Sorry, I think there's some miscommunication going on here. I know Dumba hits all over the ice. I was more pointing out that Pronger didn't really go for the big open ice hits, instead keeping his defensive positioning. Just talking about their different approach to physical play.

As for playing in all situations, of course he plays those minutes in the WHL. He's a big time prospect. I'm talking about when he finally translates his game to the NHL. Will he be a guy you play in all situations? Just because your team uses you that way in Jr, doesn't mean that will be your role in the NHL. As you said, his D zone play is a weak spot at this point in time.
Hard to say, but eventually yes, I think so. He is a top paring dman. He will play in all situations somewhere along the line in the nhl. Probably not right away, and maybe not at all depending on what team he is on and what they like to do on special teams and who the other dmen are. He will be a Boumeester/Phaneuf/Doughty guy that is used in all situations. I have little doubt of that tbh.

Dumba is already pairing down his open ice goonery. He is paying more attention to his positional play and I believe he has been told by his coaching staff in Red Deer to tone down the big time open ice excursions and especially the resulting fisticuffs afterward. He is simply too important to the team to have sitting in the box for seven+ minutes at a time, not to mention risking getting kicked out of the game and/or suspension.

With the way the nhl is going, maybe that part of his game will have to disappear completely?

He is still one of the youngest players in his draft class, and he will most likely have time to fill out some more and work on the deficiencies in his game.

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02-15-2012, 04:28 AM
  #46
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For all we know our "rock" could be some kid drafted in the 3rd round.

Just because you're drafted high and have a lot of hype around you pre-draft doesn't mean you are going to walk into this league and scare anyone.

Viktor Hedman was certainly picked to be Tampa's rock on D and had 10x more hype than anyone in this draft ... and all he is right now is a rock, as in a rock sinking in water. He's not anchoring anything there.

I also don't really buy that your sandpaper can be "other" minor players. I think someone in your core group needs to have some hair on their private parts, lol. Otherwise you end up like a team ala San Jose. Nice skill. Nice guys. Will never win anything when it matters though.
Completely agree that you could find a stud Dmen in the 2nd/3rd round. It happens all the time. Some of the best players in the league weren't selected in the 1st round. Forwards are easily a safer bet in the 1st.

When I said sandpaper can come from depth, I meant 2nd/3rd liners and 2nd pairing D ect. They still count as important guys, just not your star players. Like Detroit when they were winning all their cups and even today. Their best players aren't running around taking guys heads off. They get that from their depth. Just saying it's not an absolute need, but yes, it's a nice trait to have.

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02-15-2012, 04:32 AM
  #47
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Hard to say, but eventually yes, I think so. He is a top paring dman. He will play in all situations somewhere along the line in the nhl. Probably not right away, and maybe not at all depending on what team he is on and what they like to do on special teams and who the other dmen are. He will be a Boumeester/Phaneuf/Doughty guy that is used in all situations. I have little doubt of that tbh.

Dumba is already pairing down his open ice goonery. He is paying more attention to his positional play and I believe he has been told by his coaching staff in Red Deer to tone down the big time open ice excursions and especially the resulting fisticuffs afterward. He is simply too important to the team to have sitting in the box for seven+ minutes at a time, not to mention risking getting kicked out of the game and/or suspension.

With the way the nhl is going, maybe that part of his game will have to disappear completely?

He is still one of the youngest players in his draft class, and he will most likely have time to fill out some more and work on the deficiencies in his game.
That's good to hear. If he gets that part of his game in check, he should be a monster down the road.

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02-15-2012, 05:06 AM
  #48
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For all we know our "rock" could be some kid drafted in the 3rd round.

Just because you're drafted high and have a lot of hype around you pre-draft doesn't mean you are going to walk into this league and scare anyone.

Viktor Hedman was certainly picked to be Tampa's rock on D and had 10x more hype than anyone in this draft ... and all he is right now is a rock, as in a rock sinking in water. He's not anchoring anything there.

I also don't really buy that your sandpaper can be "other" minor players. I think someone in your core group needs to have some hair on their private parts, lol. Otherwise you end up like a team ala San Jose. Nice skill. Nice guys. Will never win anything when it matters though. Gretzky and Kurri and Anderson and Coffey were all nice enough ... but Messier ... Messier would knock everyone of your teeth out with a vicious, dirty elbow if he could get away with it. Tikkanen was a nasty piece of work too. When you're throwing these guys out every other shift ... it drains the other team.
Is this a joke? He's 21 years old.

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02-15-2012, 05:09 AM
  #49
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Is this a joke? He's 21 years old.
Yeah? If the litmus test is sitting around for 5-6 years then count me out of drafting a d-man with a high pick period. This guy was touted as being the most NHL ready d prospect in ages to boot.

I'd rather take my chances with getting a bonafied star forward in the shorter term and take d-men in the 2nd round, where you eventually might hit pay dirt with a Weber/Letang/Subban/Keith etc.

And also now that I really think about it ... guy's who generally turn into superstar d-men are showing signs of dominance (if not flat out dominance) by their 2nd/3rd seasons almost across the board. You look at Doughty, Lidstrom, Letang, Subban, Weber, etc. ... it's not like any of these guys had to be in their 4th/5th season before it was evident that they were going to be big time talents. It's actually fairly rare that you need 3-4 seasons to get a read on whether or not a player is going to be a star or not (even d-men).


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02-15-2012, 05:29 AM
  #50
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Viktor Hedman was certainly picked to be Tampa's rock on D and had 10x more hype than anyone in this draft ... and all he is right now is a rock, as in a rock sinking in water. He's not anchoring anything there.
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Is this a joke? He's 21 years old.
The joke is not that he's 21 and will get better, the joke is how someone can't see the value of Hedman.

He is the anchor and best D on the Tampa roster. If you can't see that you're not paying attention.

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