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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread V

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Old
02-15-2012, 06:47 PM
  #101
arrbez
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Oh my god is Steve Mason ever terrible. Here I thought Ontario had finally produced another high-end NHL goalie...

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02-15-2012, 06:59 PM
  #102
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the difference between the 1st goalie and the 32th is around the same as the difference between the 1st LWer and the 32th LWer.The only differance is the 32th goalie can be taken very late in the draft maximizing your other player , while the 32th LWer can't.

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02-15-2012, 07:06 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
the difference between the 1st goalie and the 32th is around the same as the difference between the 1st LWer and the 32th LWer.The only differance is the 32th goalie can be taken very late in the draft maximizing your other player , while the 32th LWer can't.
I disagree that the 32 LW is equal to the 32 goalie because you draft LWs for differing purposes. You draft checking LWs, 2 way LWs, scorin left wings, all to fill four spots on your roster. However you draft goalies all for the same purpose, to keep picks out of the net. It's a different concept entirely.

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02-15-2012, 07:09 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I disagree that the 32 LW is equal to the 32 goalie because you draft LWs for differing purposes. You draft checking LWs, 2 way LWs, scorin left wings, all to fill four spots on your roster. However you draft goalies all for the same purpose, to keep picks out of the net. It's a different concept entirely.
do you really draft checking LWers within the first 32 except gainey?

Every team has to have his 1st line scoring LW.

Is the difference between the 1st goalie and the 32th bigger than the differance between Hull and Robitaille?!

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02-15-2012, 07:13 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
the difference between the 1st goalie and the 32th is around the same as the difference between the 1st LWer and the 32th LWer.The only differance is the 32th goalie can be taken very late in the draft maximizing your other player , while the 32th LWer can't.
That sounds like something a GM yet to take a goalie would say..

And yes. The difference between Roy or xxx is the same as Hull VS #32 LW selected. We can use the NHL right now as an example between the best goalies and the worst goalies...and how massive the gap is. Why would it be differen't in a 32 team ATD league?


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02-15-2012, 07:15 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I disagree that the 32 LW is equal to the 32 goalie because you draft LWs for differing purposes. You draft checking LWs, 2 way LWs, scorin left wings, all to fill four spots on your roster. However you draft goalies all for the same purpose, to keep picks out of the net. It's a different concept entirely.
This is very true. By my quick scan, Bun Cook was the 32nd LWer taken, but he's a guy who probably doesn't go that high in a vacuum. It's his intangibles that make him valuable as a "glue guy", which is the case with a lot of LWers actually. If you had to choose a LWer to be the best player on a line built around them, the list would look very different. And the guy in that #32 spot would be a far, far cry from Bobby Hull.

To put it another way, if you had to draft a LWer to use in the same manner that you would use Bobby Hull (the go-to offensive option around whom the line is built), you wouldn't be taking Tikkanen, Cashman, Northcott, etc. These guys are far more valuable in a team concept than they are as individual players.

Even as someone who almost always takes a mid-to-lower end goalie, it would be disingenuous for me to say that the difference between Patrick Roy and Tiny Thompson isn't that big. You can win with a bottom end goalie, just like you can win with a bottom end #1 D or C. But it's something you have to make up for in other ways.


Last edited by arrbez: 02-15-2012 at 07:22 PM.
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02-15-2012, 07:21 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
That sounds like something a GM yet to take a goalie would say..
and disagreeing would sound like a guy who used his 2nd round pick to get a goalie

Franckly that's kind of a cheap shot , I always thought like that and was consequent with my line of thinking by drafting goalies late.

I'm not trying to impose my view , it is what it is.It's just a discussion

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02-15-2012, 07:43 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Hainsworth is interesting because he's always been remembered and rated highly in a historical sense for his 1928-29 season with 22 shutouts. But you could argue that Worters and Thompson were better that season when you include the playoffs.


I actually checked this out and I don't think I agree.


Hainsworth held the Bruins to one goal each of the first 2 games on the road. He then allowed 3 in the 3rd game.

Absolutely does not look bad on Hainsworth, if anything it adds to his record setting season.


Quote:
Hainsworth held the Bruins to a single goal in each road game but his teammates failed to light the lamp at the other end of the ice and the series reverted to the Forum, with Boston holding a 2-0 lead.

Playing in front of hometown fans in the third game, Aurel Joliat scored one goal and assisted on another but the Bruins potted three on the night, sweeping the series before moving on to defeat the New York Rangers for the Stanley Cup.

- http://ourhistory.canadiens.com/season/1928-1929

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02-15-2012, 07:45 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by God Made Me View Post
Marty and Gordie Howe both stood up for Mark.
So much so that they would interrupt the game and start a fight with whoever was pounding on Mark? I can't 100% recall what the situation was, but I believe that Sprague went to court over beating around Lalonde because Lalonde was being rough with Odie. Like.. he cracked Lalonde's skull open with his stick over it.

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02-15-2012, 07:48 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
to be honest , even the worst goalie in this thing can get you to victory.That's what happens when you only have 32 players playing on 1 position , they are all strong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Well, the difference between Henrik Lundqvist and Steve Mason is Maaaaaaasssive.

That should be the same type of relativity in our league.
That's why I most always take goaltenders early. That's the way I see it MB. I never understood why people are saying that the 30th goaltender can steal games and series, but the 30th best centre or defenceman or winger can't do the same. We're playing a fantasy game, but in real life all the players that we select have, at some point, been an all-star and talented player, capable of stealing games. It's now just relative, as we picked the best of the best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
This is correct, and it goes both ways...the gaps between all players are smaller than they are at a single point in time in real life. The best guys like Gretzky and Orr won't be as far ahead of the average ATD player as they were ahead of the average NHL player went they were in the league. The same goes for the guys at the bottom of the pile, they won't be as far behind the average (or the best) as the worst at their position are in real life.
Well said. I never really was able to put these thoughts into proper wording, like HT just did.

---

Thanks for the nice words on Odie Cleghorn. I scan the list and looked at a few RW's, but at the end he was the only one that was standing out for the utilization I intend him to play. I'm happy he fell to 334th, because although I really like Nick Metz and thought he was the BPA as a checking winger, his competition are really close to him, and actually wouldn't mind a few options. I think Cleghorn at that point was standing alone in his tier, for the kind of player he is. I wouldn't of been happy to miss him, especially with Helmut Balderis also taken.

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02-15-2012, 07:49 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Thanks for the nice words on Odie Cleghorn. I scan the list and looked at a few RW's, but at the end he was the only one that was standing out for the utilization I intend him to play. I'm happy he fell to 334th, because although I really like Nick Metz and thought he was the BPA as a checking winger, his competition are really close to him, and actually wouldn't mind a few options. I think Cleghorn at that point was standing alone in his tier, for the kind of player he is. I wouldn't of been happy to miss him, especially with Helmut Balderis also taken.
Who are you going to be playing him with?

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02-15-2012, 07:50 PM
  #112
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Couldn't agree more EB. Lets **** off with this double standard around here.

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Old
02-15-2012, 08:02 PM
  #113
EagleBelfour
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Who are you going to be playing him with?
My lines are pretty set right now.

I really like the skills of my first line of Frank Mahovlich - Sidney Crosby - Didier Pitre. The only thing that is missing is a gritty, hard ass presence on that line, but as I decided to take D's and a G with 3 of my first 6 picks, I decided to go with speed and skills, and take the best offensive players available. All three are strong players, no pushover, that can hold their own against any players, but won't scare away the competition. I'm can live with that.

My second line right now is Paul Thompson and Odie Cleghorn, with a hole in the centre. I have a few options in my head right now to compliment them. As I went heavy with D's and took my first round on a goaltender, this won't be a line that will wow people, but I feel that when this line will be complete, the skills and the chemistry of those three together will make it a great line, considering the rounds I selected them.

My third line right is Nick Metz - Ralph Backstrom, with a hole on the right side. Two third of a great defensive line. I already told that I took Backstrom specifically to play against your Wayne Gretzky. I thought speed and smart was the way to go against Gretzky, over brutal force. Him and Metz will do their best and 'try' to contain Kurri and Gretzky, as much as you can do so.

I'm extremely please by how the players fell to me thus far. I traded down from 270 to 297 and got great value in return, and still took the guy (Backstrom) that I should of initially took at 270 (I just didn't thought of him at the time!)


Flame away!

EDIT: If I could of had Stastny at 115th, over Crosby, it would of been an almost perfect draft so far. At least, for my own amusement

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02-15-2012, 08:02 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Thanks for the nice words on Odie Cleghorn. I scan the list and looked at a few RW's, but at the end he was the only one that was standing out for the utilization I intend him to play. I'm happy he fell to 334th, because although I really like Nick Metz and thought he was the BPA as a checking winger, his competition are really close to him, and actually wouldn't mind a few options. I think Cleghorn at that point was standing alone in his tier, for the kind of player he is. I wouldn't of been happy to miss him, especially with Helmut Balderis also taken.
That's who we were taking if the trade with Nalyd went through.

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02-15-2012, 08:03 PM
  #115
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A more in depth look at George Hainsworth in the playoffs:

1926-27:

Quote:
Maroons goaltender, Clint Benedict, had enjoyed as much regular season success as Hainsworth, posting a league-leading 1.42 goals-against average, appearing in all but one of his teamís regular season games.

Each goaltender allowed a single puck past them in the opening match, nominally an away game for the Habs, and set the stage for the second, one where everything was on the line. The second game remained scoreless after three periods of play.

Twelve minutes into the extra frame, a Howie Morenz marker ended the Maroonsí season, and sent the Canadiens into the Stanley Cup semifinals against the powerful Ottawa Senators.

The Senators solved Hainsworth, shutting the Canadiens out 4-0 at The Forum and making the second game almost a formality. It ended in a 1-1 tie, giving Ottawa a 5-1 overall scoring edge and a ticket to the finals where they would go on to defeat the American Division champion Boston Bruins 3-1 in a best-of five Stanley Cup Final

So in the first series Hainsworth allowed 1 goal in two games, and then allowed 5 goals in two games to the eventual Cup Champion Bruins



1927-28

Quote:
Despite pitting the NHLís two top offenses against each other, the series between the Habs and Maroons was a low-scoring affair. Solid defense and goaltending once again trumped speed and superior scoring instincts. As was the case a year before, the opening match ended in a tie, though this time the teams were tied at two goals apiece. Neither Morenz nor Joliat made it onto the score sheet as the Maroons effectively shut down the NHLís top line.

365 days after the last deciding game that featured these same teams, Montrealís NHL squads once again played to a scoreless tie through three periods, needing overtime to settle the matter of who would go home and who would go on.

Eight minutes into the fourth frame, the Canadiens season came to an end with a Maroons marker that sent them through to the Stanley Cup Finals where they would extend the best-of-five series to the limit before falling to the New York Rangers.

Hainsworth only allows 3 goals in 2 games, the 3rd goal being the overtime game winner in a 0-0 game.


1928-29

Quote:
Hainsworth held the Bruins to a single goal in each road game but his teammates failed to light the lamp at the other end of the ice and the series reverted to the Forum, with Boston holding a 2-0 lead.

Playing in front of hometown fans in the third game, Aurel Joliat scored one goal and assisted on another but the Bruins potted three on the night, sweeping the series before moving on to defeat the New York Rangers for the Stanley Cup.
Again Hainsworth holds the eventual cup champions to a goal a game and then allows three the final game.

A common theme of Montreal losing 1-0 games


1929-30

Quote:
Taking the opening match of the home and home total-goal quarterfinal series in Chicago by a 1-0 margin, Montreal and the Blackhawks played to a 2-2 tie at the Forum, eleven minutes into the third overtime period, giving the Habs a 3-2 advantage and a ticket to the semifinals.

Two nights later, Forum fans once again got more hockey than theyíd bargained for as the 1-1 game went into a fourth overtime period. Gus Rivers, who scored once in 19 regular season games, helped the home crowd leave happy shortly before the nine minute mark in the fourth overtime frame.

Two nights later, at Madison Square Garden, Hainsworth blanked the Rangers 2-0, putting the Habs through to the finals where theyíd face the NHLís acknowledged powerhouse.

Up against a team that scored more goals and allowed fewer than any other NHL club, Montreal put three past Vezina Trophy winner, Tiny Thompson in the first game. They also kept Cooney Weiland and Dit Clapper, both 40-goal men for the Bruins in the regular season, off the scoresheet, stunning Boston fans and taking a 1-0 lead in the best-of-five finals.

After taking an early lead in the second game, Montreal held on as Boston fell short in an attempt to chip away the lead. The Canadiens finish the game with a 4-3 win, capturing the third Stanley Cup in team history, and the first presented to them on Forum ice, without losing a single postseason game.


Won the first game 1-0 and then won the 2nd game 3-2 in triple overtime

In the next series they won 2-1 in a quadruple overtime game and then won the last game 2-0 (Effectively at least 7 straight shutout periods)

In the Cup finals Hainsworth shuts out the Bruins in the first game having at least a 10 period shutout streak!!

Montreal wins the Cup winning the last game 4-3




1930-31

Hainsworth finishes with a 1.75 GAA and shuts out Chicago in the 5th and cup clinching cup Finals

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Old
02-15-2012, 08:06 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
My second line right now is Paul Thompson and Odie Cleghorn, with a hole in the centre. I have a few options in my head right now to compliment them.
Take David Steckel, I know greatness when I see it.

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02-15-2012, 08:09 PM
  #117
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Take David Steckel, I know greatness when I see it.
Shhh, he's plan B right now!

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02-15-2012, 08:11 PM
  #118
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Crosby is in my division. Maybe I should take Steckel.

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02-15-2012, 08:14 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
That's who we were taking if the trade with Nalyd went through.
Wow, don't wanna be mean, but glad it didn't worked out

Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Crosby is in my division. Maybe I should take Steckel.
I hope you will do so. You're easily the team to beat in the division, so Steckel getting prime minute to play against Crosby would give us some chances to me and the other teams to win the division!

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02-15-2012, 08:18 PM
  #120
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What is the difference between Hainsworths 5 years in the playoffs shown compared to Parents 2 best years in the playoffs? Parent had the Conn Smythe around when Hainsworth didn't?

Let's be honest here. Parent gets drafted because of those two monster performences in the playoffs.

Hainsworth almost had identicle 2 years in a row, plus those other 3 listed above. Hainsworth also had a much better regular season resume compared to Parent and a much longer career.



WHAT SEPERATES GEORGE HAINSWORTH FROM BERNIE PARENT?


Also keep in Mind Hainsworth was doing all this well into his 30's compared to Parent when he was playing in his 20's.

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02-15-2012, 08:29 PM
  #121
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WHAT SEPERATES GEORGE HAINSWORTH FROM BERNIE PARENT?
Evidence.

We KNOW how good Parent was. We're not so sure about Hainsworth.

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02-15-2012, 08:33 PM
  #122
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Evidence.

We KNOW how good Parent was. We're not so sure about Hainsworth.
Did you completely bypass my above post shpwing how well Hainsworth played in 5 consecutive playoffs?


I broke down every series for each year. There were multiple games that went into 3-4 overtimes a piece.

Hainsworth had at least a 10 period shutout streak in 1929-30

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02-15-2012, 08:33 PM
  #123
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Parent had, arguably, the most dominant 2-year performance among goaltenders in NHL history.

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02-15-2012, 08:35 PM
  #124
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Parent gets drafted as high as he does because of not just 2 monster playoffs, but seasons on a whole, and a number of very good seasons outside of that.


As for the goalie difference issue, count me on the side emphasizing the gap. If you really want to make the case that 32nd G is not THAT far from 1st G (in comparison to other positions), consider that these differences are likely amplified in the single position with the greatest ability to steal a game.

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02-15-2012, 08:36 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
What is the difference between Hainsworths 5 years in the playoffs shown compared to Parents 2 best years in the playoffs? Parent had the Conn Smythe around when Hainsworth didn't?

Let's be honest here. Parent gets drafted because of those two monster performences in the playoffs.

Hainsworth almost had identicle 2 years in a row, plus those other 3 listed above. Hainsworth also had a much better regular season resume compared to Parent and a much longer career.


WHAT SEPERATES GEORGE HAINSWORTH FROM BERNIE PARENT?


Also keep in Mind Hainsworth was doing all this well into his 30's compared to Parent when he was playing in his 20's.
Well for one thing, people who watched Hainsworth seemed to prefer Roy Worters to him. And people who watched them all seemed to prefer Georges Vezina and Charlie Gardiner to Worters.

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