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Mike Richter or Henrik Lundqvist

View Poll Results: Who ya got?
Mike Richter 83 30.97%
Henrik Lundqvist 185 69.03%
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Old
02-13-2012, 04:02 PM
  #351
msv957
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Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
Yeah..charmed life having Mark Hardy and Randy Moller and Norman Rochefort, Ron Greschner (aging) and James Patrick in front of you. Bruce Driver was the No. 3 d-man in 1996 and 1997. Karpovtsev??? Please. Laziest d-man easily in the history of the franchise. How quickly people forget how old and slow Beukeboom and Ulf looked against the Pens in 1996 and the Devils and Flyers in 1997.

People forget that Leetch was an abomination in his own end until Keenan came. In 1990, Leetch was just as bad as MDZ was last year.

Bernie Nicholls? Mike Gartner? Darren Turcotte? Tony Amonte? Alexei Kovalev? Troy Mallete? Carey Wilson? John Ogrodnick?

Yeah, what a bunch of Selke candidates. Even Messier was a turnover machine. People think Messier was a "defensive" forward while a Ranger because of his SHG totals. But Messier was far from committed to defense and backchecking.

From 1990-1993, Richter had only three forwards -- Erixon, Graves and Nemchinov -- who were completely commited to backchecking and defense. Right now, Henrik has at least 6. Maybe 7 this season alone. And he played for a defense-oriented system his first 4 years.

The fact is that Richter's Rangers from 1990-1997 did not have a team commitment to defense. They were run and gun. There was a reason why Keenan (not Smith) traded away Patrick, Amonte, Gartner and Turcotte in 1994 for guys who were better in their own end.

I can end it right now.

Henrik = Regular season
Richter = Playoffs
Good post. The NHL was also a lot more wide open in the early 90's. Just looking at the stats for the Vezina winners and nominee's are not even close to the goalies now. A goalie with a .915 save percentage would probably win the Vezina back then while a goalie with a .915 save now would be considered below average.

There is no question in my mind Richter would have Vezina stats like Hank has been showing the past 5-6 years if Richter was in this ERA. However, much credit has to go to Hank as he has been a rock his whole career in NY. He has plenty of time to create his legacy in playoffs.

This is a great debate as this organization has been very lucky to have (2) excellent goalies the past 20 years or so. This is not even including VBK!

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02-14-2012, 04:49 PM
  #352
GWOW
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I can micro-manage the argument like this all week if you'd like. It bothers me you've taken it this way, and you've got me arguing against Richter - I have a huge, autographed picture of him holding up the cup on my wall. Its not like I have it out for the guy.

Its just that your logic for the whole thing is buried deep inside such a vacuum, and so inheritantly flawed. Im not going to let the wonderful memories of that glowing cup and a wonderful team mask the debate of one goaltender vs. the other. The fact that you've recently come to bashing the '94 team in front of Richter makes it even crazier.
I love both goalies. I have no agenda. I want my team to be successful and win a Stanley Cup.

People act like Richter walked into some set-up situation, not realizing that he unseated a Vezina-winner and fan favorite Vanbiesbrouck by pure merit and skill.

Beezer was the hero in 1986, but he was average in 1987, 1988 and 1989. When Richter joined the team, he infused the fans with excitement. Leetch was horrible that season. Nicholls and Gartner made fans actually think Stanley Cup, but it was Richter who helped make the Rangers legitimate for the first time since the 1970s.

That's why Richter was a Vezina finalist in 1991. That's why he was an all-star and was picked over Beezer and Barasso for the 1991 Canada Cup. That's why Richter was the starting goalie for both the Devils and Pens series in 1992.

Keenan was a genius. The first thing he did when he came to New York was tell Beezer he's a goner. He knew there was no way they would have won a Cup without a true No. 1. That's why we won the Cup.

Not because of Hall of Famers. Not because of trophy winners. The Rangers won the Cup because Richter gave them a chance to win every single night he laced them up that postseason.

He had 4 shutouts that postseason. In Game 2 of the Isles series, they Isles were dominated for almost 40 minutes and Richter made unbelievable save after another.

In Game 2 of the Devils series, after lsoing Game 1, Richter pitched a shutout, stoning Richer left and right. Messier gave him a lead and Richter made it stand.

In Game 6 of the Devils series, no need to explain.....Keenan and Messier both said the MVP of that game was Richter because it could have easily been 6-0 before Kovalev scored late in the 2nd.

In Game 7, he made three unreal highlight saves against Richer, Nicholls and Guerin. The tying goal he gave up to Zelepukin was a complete breakdown defensively. Zelepukin stuffed it in while it was in Richter's pads because nobody was in front helping him.

In Game 2 of the SCF, after losing Game 1, Richter made two huge stops on Bure in the 3rd period in a 2-1 game before an empty netter iced it.

In Game 3 is legendary. No need to describe that one.

Game 7 -- Richter was given a lead and he made it stand. What more could you ask of a goalie. The Rangers did not dominate that game at all. The Canucks made it 3-2 on a beautifukl tic-tac-toe set-up with 15 mins left in the game. At that point...it's all on your goalie. 18 Hall of Famers wouldnt have mattered at that point. It was all on Richter...Biggest game in the history of the franchise and he delivered.

Henrik is an amazing goalie and will certainly retire the greatest goalie in franchise history. But you can only blame yourself for trying to minimize Richter's personal accomplishments that postseason.

It's obvious you feel that way, and have always felt that way about him. Just like you feel Richter benefited from a great team, I feel that Henrik cannot be compared to any of the greats until he wins postseason awards/multiple series.

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Old
02-14-2012, 04:59 PM
  #353
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Mike won a cup so I pick him.

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02-14-2012, 06:15 PM
  #354
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GWoW, the Rangers won a Stanley Cup because they were highly talented, complete team from top-to-bottom. Richter is a part of that, but he's not the sole reason for the Cup.

For example, game 7 against the Devils... Richter was enormous in that game, but you're discounting the fact that Brodeur was too. The Rangers took 16 more shots on goal than the Devils did and many of them high quality. With a lesser goaltender playing opposite Richter, the Rangers win that series and that game handily. He didn't let in the tying goal in game 7 because the D let him down. He let in the goal because a.) the Devils were pressing hard and had a great team and b.) because the ref didn't blow the play dead like he would have 2 minutes earlier in the game. Did you forget Leetch scoring one of the most amazing playoff goals ever seen in the second period? You're right, it was all Richter.

As for game 6 against the Devils, Keenan and Messier said Richter was the MVP, but it's still not all him. He kept them in the game. It's what you expect from your starting goalie. What really turned that game around and won it was Keenan's decision to put Kovalev on Messier's line.

My point is that the Rangers don't win the Stanley Cup without Richter's performance, but they also don't win it without the team in front of him. You could've given him the Conn Smythe. You also could've given it to Messier. Leetch was as deserving as either of them. So yes, the future Hall of Famers, along with the rest of the team, are as important of a factor as Richter.

This Rangers team isn't as talented as that team was and even if they win a Stanley Cup I will still say that. But we're talking about two different eras. The 1994 Rangers, if you took their talents relative to their ages and paid them according to the times, would not fit under the Cap today.

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Old
02-14-2012, 07:02 PM
  #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
GWoW, the Rangers won a Stanley Cup because they were highly talented, complete team from top-to-bottom. Richter is a part of that, but he's not the sole reason for the Cup.

For example, game 7 against the Devils... Richter was enormous in that game, but you're discounting the fact that Brodeur was too. The Rangers took 16 more shots on goal than the Devils did and many of them high quality. With a lesser goaltender playing opposite Richter, the Rangers win that series and that game handily. He didn't let in the tying goal in game 7 because the D let him down. He let in the goal because a.) the Devils were pressing hard and had a great team and b.) because the ref didn't blow the play dead like he would have 2 minutes earlier in the game. Did you forget Leetch scoring one of the most amazing playoff goals ever seen in the second period? You're right, it was all Richter.

As for game 6 against the Devils, Keenan and Messier said Richter was the MVP, but it's still not all him. He kept them in the game. It's what you expect from your starting goalie. What really turned that game around and won it was Keenan's decision to put Kovalev on Messier's line.

My point is that the Rangers don't win the Stanley Cup without Richter's performance, but they also don't win it without the team in front of him. You could've given him the Conn Smythe. You also could've given it to Messier. Leetch was as deserving as either of them. So yes, the future Hall of Famers, along with the rest of the team, are as important of a factor as Richter.

This Rangers team isn't as talented as that team was and even if they win a Stanley Cup I will still say that. But we're talking about two different eras. The 1994 Rangers, if you took their talents relative to their ages and paid them according to the times, would not fit under the Cap today.
I agree, but the reason I have gone on and on in this thread about the 1994 Rangers is that some make it out that any goalie would have won the title with the 1994 roster.

Botton line - Richter doesn't get to a Cup without the 1994 roster and the 1994 roster doesn't win the title without Richter.

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Old
02-14-2012, 07:13 PM
  #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
I agree, but the reason I have gone on and on in this thread about the 1994 Rangers is that some make it out that any goalie would have won the title with the 1994 roster.

Botton line - Richter doesn't get to a Cup without the 1994 roster and the 1994 roster doesn't win the title without Richter.
I think the distinction many of us are trying to make is between "the Rangers don't win the title without Richter" and "the Rangers don't win the title without Richter playing the way he did.". This isn't a knock on Richter. This is just an example of what I mean by Richter being one of the best big game goalies I've ever seen. Lundqvists average play is better than Richter's was. But Richter's best has been matched by very few IMO.

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02-15-2012, 09:51 PM
  #357
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Right now, I probably say Richter because of the cup and because Lundqvist has looked quite mortal in the playoffs.

With that said, a cup and vezina and that whole argument goes the other way.

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02-15-2012, 10:02 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Right now, I probably say Richter because of the cup and because Lundqvist has looked quite mortal in the playoffs.

With that said, a cup and vezina and that whole argument goes the other way.
Edge! Nice to see you!

Lundqvist needs to perform in the playoffs, and I am fully confident that he will.

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02-15-2012, 10:04 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by Jabroni1994 View Post
Edge! Nice to see you!

Lundqvist needs to perform in the playoffs, and I am fully confident that he will.
Been meaning to pop in for a while. Newest baby has me very busy.

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02-15-2012, 10:10 PM
  #360
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Been meaning to pop in for a while. Newest baby has me very busy.
Congratulations.

And who is in your avatar picture?

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02-15-2012, 10:17 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by Jabroni1994 View Post
Congratulations.

And who is in your avatar picture?
Pepe the prawn, from the muppets.

Everyone has hockey players, but I decided a long time ago to go a different route. Originally I had him in a Ranger uniform, but there was a system crash 5 or so years back.

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02-15-2012, 10:49 PM
  #362
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I dont think mortal is even close to fair describing lundqvist's play in the playoffs. Pathetic could be used tod escribe the teams that were in front of him. But he almost single handedly willed them past washington the other year and besides the first devils series and the one pens series he's been dominant against top seeds with poor teams in front of him. I've been nothing but impressed by his PO performances

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02-15-2012, 10:56 PM
  #363
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I dont think mortal is even close to fair describing lundqvist's play in the playoffs. Pathetic could be used tod escribe the teams that were in front of him. But he almost single handedly willed them past washington the other year and besides the first devils series and the one pens series he's been dominant against top seeds with poor teams in front of him. I've been nothing but impressed by his PO performances
The play in front of him notwithstanding, the ability to carry your team in the playoffs is part of the evaluating criteria, for me at least.

He's looked very good at times, and merely good at times. But he's never quite made me say "This guy can carry us into a finals."

But this year, at least so far is different. I've always argued that the difference between Lundqvist and Vezina (along with being the clear cut best goalie in the league), is the one rough patch he seems to have every year.

This year, he's taken it to a whole new level. And I hope the same holds true for the playoffs.

When I look back at Richter, he was kind of like Eli Manning. In clutch situations, he was just other wordly.

That's not to say Lundqvist isn't. But the standard is a cup.

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02-15-2012, 11:06 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
When I look back at Richter, he was kind of like Eli Manning. In clutch situations, he was just other wordly.
JD used to always mention this, but I always think of those moments with his eyes and his body language. You could just see the focus, the intensity. It was like Richter was replaced with Super-Richter.

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02-16-2012, 05:53 AM
  #365
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
JD used to always mention this, but I always think of those moments with his eyes and his body language. You could just see the focus, the intensity. It was like Richter was replaced with Super-Richter.
Maybe he ate a Super Mario Mushroom?



That's pretty sick.

It's a move I would try during roller hockey.

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Old
02-16-2012, 06:52 AM
  #366
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I sure hope Henrick puts all us Richter supporters in our place come June!!!!
Lets Go Rangers!!!!!

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02-16-2012, 07:46 AM
  #367
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There used to be a YouTube of Richter standing on his head during a 5 on 3 PK. I think it was against Nashville or Minnesota. Can't find it. Anyone know what I'm talking about?

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