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02-15-2012, 09:32 PM
  #451
bleedblue1223
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I remember when everyone was all over me for criticizing Stewart. Looks like Hitchcock agrees with me now.

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02-15-2012, 09:53 PM
  #452
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Originally Posted by ChChChChimo View Post
A question and a comment:

It's interesting to see what points get ignored in the replay discussion.


Why is it obvious that Tarasenko would step in immediately to the 2nd or 3rd line? Many players putting up big numbers in the main Euro leagues end up not making it in the NHL. There are no guarantees. I hope he is great but it is asinine to start counting on him to be a stud right away.
At the risk of somewhat repeating what Mr. Texas Hold 'Em noted earlier (although, I suspect, in a much less snotty way) the reason to suspect Tarasenko steps in as a 3rd line forward at a minimum has mostly to do with how his game looks to translate to the NHL. Tarasenko is not a player who seems to need the space of the larger international rinks, he is not a player who shys away from contact, and he is not a player devoid of a two-way game. As such, he stands an excellent chance to make the NHL due to his not having the aforementioned deficiencies in his game.

Add to that, his method of scoring is that he is a sniper...which is pretty much universal to any league...who can create his own chances and likes to rush the net and you have a player who is going to make the NHL team. His skill level indicates that he will not play on the 4th line and most likely will be at least a 3rd line player.

I can understand some caution when dealing with any prospect...but this is a prospect who has done very, very well in the second best league with a very translatable skill set and seems to have the desire to prove himself against the best competition.

There are no sure bets in prospects, but I suspect this one is closer than most you would care not to make.

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02-15-2012, 10:18 PM
  #453
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Originally Posted by Multimoodia View Post
(although, I suspect, in a much less snotty way)
The guy called out my point about Tarasenko being a 2d-3d liner as "asinine" and I used the same word back. But thanks for agreeing with me substantively and just making sure I knew how much you judge me as the one at fault for that, snotster.

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02-15-2012, 10:50 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
The guy called out my point about Tarasenko being a 2d-3d liner as "asinine" and I used the same word back. But thanks for agreeing with me substantively and just making sure I knew how much you judge me as the one at fault for that, snotster.
I actually was not referring to your use of the word asinine because, as you deftly note, you were not the progenitor of that particular word in this thread. It was merely tone, which I suspect you were quite aware of when you created said post as the questioning poster was, perhaps incorrectly, questioning everyone's (in particular yours) analysis skill.

That said, anyone who can throw it back with at least a mediocum of humor (snotster...not bad) and still have one of the greatest mispellings in the history of this board underneath their username (a shame in some ways future members of this board are never going to see FIO's ludicrous commentary) I suppose is allowed an amount of snark.

Carry on.

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02-15-2012, 11:55 PM
  #455
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
I remember when everyone was all over me for criticizing Stewart. Looks like Hitchcock agrees with me now.
I think most posters have obviously recognized that Stewart isn't playing to his capabilities...I think what some posters are/were criticized over is all the recent Stewart trade rumors. Some people understandably aren't ready to give up on a guy just because he's having a down season. Especially a player who's young, and who has shown as much scoring potential as Stewart. I think it would be different if we were sellers right now and had several players playing well below their ability. But that is not the case...Stewart is just one guy who is having a tough time. To be honest...I'm pretty much on the fence with Stewart right now....there's obviously some motivation issues there and some things getting in the way...but I still think he can turn it around, and I'd at least like see what he can do with a full line-up and in the playoffs for the Blues before we decide that he doesn't fit. Also, I think the main complaint with Stewart has been his lack of offense, but to be fair that seems to be a problem with more players than just him. For instance, Oshie has just 1 goal in his last 17 games. And that is a guy who has been given top line minutes every night.

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02-15-2012, 11:59 PM
  #456
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
I remember when everyone was all over me for criticizing Stewart. Looks like Hitchcock agrees with me now.
I don't think any Blues fan has argued that Stewart should be immune from criticism this year.

There's also a distinct difference between constructive/rational criticism and many of the comments that have been thrown Stewart's way this year (not necessarily from you).

There's plenty to discuss about Stewart's game, both good and bad. There's no doubt that he's having a rough year, that he's not quite the style of player that many Blues fans (and perhaps some people in the Blues organization) thought he was, that he's plagued by inconsistency (with regards to both effort and production), and that the Blues need him to be better.

On the other hard, any reasonable conversation about Stewart can't ignore his past history of significant production throughout his career (including his play with this team just last year), his age, his skill set, his potential, his relatively low cost relative to that potential, and the fact that the team needs a player exactly like the one he's capable of being, either.

For better or worse, he's one of the most significant offensive talents on this team. Outside of Arnott, who is in the twilight of his career, nobody on the team has a higher career goals per game average than Stewart does...and Arnott (who has 400+ career goals) is beating him by less than a goal per 82 games. The Blues either need to find a way to actively unlock that talent, wait a year or two to see if it can unlock itself, or trade him out for a similar talent (ideally at a similar cost...think something like JVR) more to their liking.

Moving him just because "we don't need him", or because one is disappointed in his play this year, or to clear salary space, or for a playoff rental, or the like is both short-sighted and self-destructive, IMO. Moving him in a trade that upgrades the team long-term is always something that should be considered.

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02-16-2012, 02:50 AM
  #457
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Originally Posted by EastonBlues22 View Post
Moving him just because "we don't need him", or because one is disappointed in his play this year, or to clear salary space, or for a playoff rental, or the like is both short-sighted and self-destructive, IMO. Moving him in a trade that upgrades the team long-term is always something that should be considered.
But moving him because he doesn't fit, especially with Hitchcock is.

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02-16-2012, 03:06 AM
  #458
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
But moving him because he doesn't fit, especially with Hitchcock is.
I know there's some tongue-in-cheek there, but the organization's braintrust wouldn't have shipped Johnson off for Stewart if they didn't see him as someone who was a long-term fit. Armstrong specifically called him "a budding power-forward that we can grow with, and around" at the time of the trade. Even if Hitchcock doesn't have the patience to endure the growing pains of young players, and we have no reason to think that he doesn't at the moment, Armstrong has publicly stated that he does, and that he isn't looking to knee-jerk his way into a worse roster by over-reacting to the ups and downs that young players have. Armstrong's in control of the roster, so I wouldn't expect to see Stewart moved just for the sake of moving him anytime soon.

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02-16-2012, 03:24 AM
  #459
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Originally Posted by EastonBlues22 View Post
I know there's some tongue-in-cheek there, but the organization's braintrust wouldn't have shipped Johnson off for Stewart if they didn't see him as someone who was a long-term fit. Armstrong specifically called him "a budding power-forward that we can grow with, and around" at the time of the trade. Even if Hitchcock doesn't have the patience to endure the growing pains of young players, and we have no reason to think that he doesn't at the moment, Armstrong has publicly stated that he does, and that he isn't looking to knee-jerk his way into a worse roster by over-reacting to the ups and downs that young players have. Armstrong's in control of the roster, so I wouldn't expect to see Stewart moved just for the sake of moving him anytime soon.
His demotion to the 4th line wasn't a knee jerk reaction. You can barely say that it was a move to motivate him because wasn't that what his demotion from the 2nd to the 3rd line suppose to be. He didn't get the hint from that and I seriously doubt he is going to get it this time. He doesn't play with a style that fits this team. He doesn't play hard enough, doesn't have a good enough 2-way game, and floats too much for our system.

We will disagree on this to the end, but I'm not advocating a trade, just to trade the guy. I genuinely believe that he just isn't fit with our style and our players. He will be lucky to be in the top 6 next season, and he is pretty much useless in a bottom 6 role.

There is a big difference between Colorado Stewart and St. Louis Stewart.

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02-16-2012, 10:02 AM
  #460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
His demotion to the 4th line wasn't a knee jerk reaction. You can barely say that it was a move to motivate him because wasn't that what his demotion from the 2nd to the 3rd line suppose to be. He didn't get the hint from that and I seriously doubt he is going to get it this time. He doesn't play with a style that fits this team. He doesn't play hard enough, doesn't have a good enough 2-way game, and floats too much for our system.

We will disagree on this to the end, but I'm not advocating a trade, just to trade the guy. I genuinely believe that he just isn't fit with our style and our players. He will be lucky to be in the top 6 next season, and he is pretty much useless in a bottom 6 role.

There is a big difference between Colorado Stewart and St. Louis Stewart.
I'd take last year's St Louis Stewart and be pretty satisfied with that.

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02-16-2012, 10:58 AM
  #461
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If he we would just move feet and storm the net and win some battles... back-check with a purpose.

But he plays his very own zone defense in The Blues zone..."Coach I have this open spaced covered."

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02-16-2012, 11:52 AM
  #462
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OT and FYI -

Bad news for fans outside of St. Louis - don't think we'll be able to watch the Sunday Hawks-Blues game - even on Center Ice.

Looks like NBC has three games tied up on a regional basis for Hockey in America day - whatever the hell that is.

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02-16-2012, 12:43 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by execwrite View Post
OT and FYI -

Bad news for fans outside of St. Louis - don't think we'll be able to watch the Sunday Hawks-Blues game - even on Center Ice.

Looks like NBC has three games tied up on a regional basis for Hockey in America day - whatever the hell that is.
Oh wow - that sucks.

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Old
02-16-2012, 01:27 PM
  #464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by execwrite View Post
OT and FYI -

Bad news for fans outside of St. Louis - don't think we'll be able to watch the Sunday Hawks-Blues game - even on Center Ice.

Looks like NBC has three games tied up on a regional basis for Hockey in America day - whatever the hell that is.
Doesn't that mean that you get to see the teams close to you? So the mid-west would get Blues-Blackhawks, and the east coast would get some eastern match-up?

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02-16-2012, 01:27 PM
  #465
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This has happened in the past.

A slot opens up in NHL center Ice and the game is on there with the NBC feed.

In Canada there is a spot available also in the NHL Center Ice package.

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Old
02-16-2012, 01:30 PM
  #466
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
His demotion to the 4th line wasn't a knee jerk reaction. You can barely say that it was a move to motivate him because wasn't that what his demotion from the 2nd to the 3rd line suppose to be. He didn't get the hint from that and I seriously doubt he is going to get it this time. He doesn't play with a style that fits this team. He doesn't play hard enough, doesn't have a good enough 2-way game, and floats too much for our system.

We will disagree on this to the end, but I'm not advocating a trade, just to trade the guy. I genuinely believe that he just isn't fit with our style and our players. He will be lucky to be in the top 6 next season, and he is pretty much useless in a bottom 6 role.

There is a big difference between Colorado Stewart and St. Louis Stewart
He was on the 4th line for one practice, and the message is pretty clear. We want you to play like those guys play...with energy and throwing your body around. How much more is there to read into that?

Ultimately, I don't think our opinions are that far apart. You think Stewart doesn't fit the Blues style, and I think that the Blues are trying to use him in a specific way that doesn't play to his natural tendencies. (Maybe those tendencies can be overcome and the Blues can build him into the player they want, and maybe they can't, but either way it's going to take a good deal of time to know for sure.) You think his effort is lacking, but I see basically the same Stewart I watched in Colorado, so I chalk it up to a disconnect between our expectations and the reality of who he has always been as a player.

We both agree that he's not having the sort of impact on a game that he should be given his talent level and ability, but I'm more inclined to believe than you are that things are likely (from a pure probability standpoint) to significantly improve eventually. We both agree that he could be moved in the right deal, although I tend to be a little more conservative than the average fan here about what sort of deal that might be, and by extension a bit more conservative regarding the chances that he's moved at all this year.

There's nothing wrong with a healthy debate about how much of this current situation can be chalked up to factors directly under the player's control (effort, preparation, etc.), and how much can be chalked up to other factors. The truth is likely somewhere in the middle, so it's not like either position is inherently unreasonable. Discussions like the ones we have, or that I sometimes have with PocktNines (just as an example), where we don't agree completely force me to justify/think through my opinions, and also to account for/consider the points you raise that stand in opposition to them. IMO, it's ultimately a productive process.

Besides, the whole situation is interesting. Stewart is probably the most significant storyline the franchise currently has from a roster construction standpoint. Nothing wrong with discussing it.

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02-16-2012, 01:37 PM
  #467
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we'll have to find you guys some good streams then

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02-16-2012, 01:58 PM
  #468
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Hopefully when Amac gets fully acclimated, he will help Stewart. Amac is a playmaker that creates space. Amac / Berglund / Stewart could be a great line if they play like they should. I would just keep them together and let them gel.

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02-16-2012, 03:11 PM
  #469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ejoshie View Post
This has happened in the past.

A slot opens up in NHL center Ice and the game is on there with the NBC feed.

In Canada there is a spot available also in the NHL Center Ice package.
Great news - thanks. I'm in New York - no way we get the Blues game on NBC here. I'll watch it on Center Ice (while I'm flipping back and forth with Linsanity).

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Old
02-16-2012, 03:58 PM
  #470
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I'm in Louisiana, on NBC it's Sharks vs Red Wings.
Versus now er, whatever is showing fishing. NHL channel is showing a Mike Modano special.

I guess they feel like if you don't have a team you must just LOVE to watch Detroit! Urgh. We have Center Ice so all other games I can watch, just not the Blues, which of course is the only one I want to watch! It does look like there is an open channel so perhaps it will show up there? If not I suppose I will just check in here for updates from those who can watch it, or I can keep track on NHL.com.

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02-16-2012, 04:28 PM
  #471
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Originally Posted by EastonBlues22 View Post
He was on the 4th line for one practice, and the message is pretty clear. We want you to play like those guys play...with energy and throwing your body around. How much more is there to read into that?

Ultimately, I don't think our opinions are that far apart. You think Stewart doesn't fit the Blues style, and I think that the Blues are trying to use him in a specific way that doesn't play to his natural tendencies. (Maybe those tendencies can be overcome and the Blues can build him into the player they want, and maybe they can't, but either way it's going to take a good deal of time to know for sure.) You think his effort is lacking, but I see basically the same Stewart I watched in Colorado, so I chalk it up to a disconnect between our expectations and the reality of who he has always been as a player.

We both agree that he's not having the sort of impact on a game that he should be given his talent level and ability, but I'm more inclined to believe than you are that things are likely (from a pure probability standpoint) to significantly improve eventually. We both agree that he could be moved in the right deal, although I tend to be a little more conservative than the average fan here about what sort of deal that might be, and by extension a bit more conservative regarding the chances that he's moved at all this year.

There's nothing wrong with a healthy debate about how much of this current situation can be chalked up to factors directly under the player's control (effort, preparation, etc.), and how much can be chalked up to other factors. The truth is likely somewhere in the middle, so it's not like either position is inherently unreasonable. Discussions like the ones we have, or that I sometimes have with PocktNines (just as an example), where we don't agree completely force me to justify/think through my opinions, and also to account for/consider the points you raise that stand in opposition to them. IMO, it's ultimately a productive process.

Besides, the whole situation is interesting. Stewart is probably the most significant storyline the franchise currently has from a roster construction standpoint. Nothing wrong with discussing it.
Well I think we can agree that being on the 4th line should definitely be a wake up call and motivational factor. If Stewart doesn't get motivated, the next step will be, being a healthy scratch. If it does come to that, I just wonder how patient Hitch will be, and if a move would happen. That would be worst case scenario and I hope it doesn't happen, but right now I think it is a very real possibility.

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02-16-2012, 04:56 PM
  #472
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Because I watch him play most of his games and it's just obvious. As a third line player he'd get 14-15 minutes which he can completely handle. As a 2d line player he'd get about 17-18 minutes. He will be somewhere in that range depending on how quickly he gets comfortable. He's not going to be a 4th liner playing 7-9 minutes a night. He's not going to be in Peoria. Therefore he will be a 2d-3d liner, and he will be a 2d-3d liner immediately. He won't spend a minute in Peoria. Lemme guess, you don't watch him play regularly so you're doing the default "never count on any prospect" caution thing, eh? Talk about asinine.
1) Actually I have watched him quite a bit.

2) Do you need a list of players that were labeled "can't miss" guys by actual experts that did miss?

3) If you are going to get your feelings hurt so bad the least you could have done is gotten worked up about the comment I made about the replay discussion since it was also calling you out.

4) It's interesting how you were a complete jerk at stltoday, then suddenly changed and became a quality poster, but suddenly have become the HF version of Kimzy (I'm right because I know I am and you are wrong).

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Old
02-16-2012, 05:14 PM
  #473
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Everyone: Keep the personal insults out of the discussion please, or infractions will follow.

I'm closing this thread since we're beyond the Columbus post-mortem.

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