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Old
02-17-2012, 07:18 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury View Post
I'd still do JVR and Walker for L. Schenn and Crabb, even with Grossman on-board. The Leafs can even have Jody Shelley.

Hartnell-Giroux-Jagr
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Crabb-B. Schenn-Voracek
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Rinaldo

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Gustafsson, Bourdon

Bryzgalov
Bobrovsky


I actually think that lineup could make a deep run in the playoffs, assuming the GAA goes down with the addition of two defensively-minded d-men. Honestly, I'd be fine with losing 0.2-0.3 goal per game if the goals against per went down by the same amount. It seems strange, but going from 3.32 GPG and 3.00 GAPG to 3.00 GPG and 2.65-2.70 GAPG would probably increase the winning percentage measurably in the last 25 games of the regular season. The Flyers would win the odd 4-3 or 3-2 game that they otherwise would have lost in regulation or OT/SO and maybe gain ground on the Rangers.
Tell me why? Homer got Meszaros for 2nd, he got Grossman for 2nd too both players we got are in their prime but no, you want to turn around and trade JVR?

What is wrong with that picture?

Sign Gorssman to a decent contract and maybe make another trade for 2nd round pick. We are set at forward position for years to come.

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Old
02-17-2012, 07:39 AM
  #52
Sundinisagod
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNotSoDryIsland View Post
Schenn is a 3rd pairing defenseman making way too much money at this point.

According to TFP, the Flyers have made it known that they believe Schenn is over rated. Understandable, he's a healthy scratch on the Leafs... Ouch.

While Schenn is a 3rd pairing defenseman at this point in time, that's still more than what JVR currently is...Schenn's contract is a safer bet than JVR's as well.

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Old
02-17-2012, 07:46 AM
  #53
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again; people are too down on L. Schenn, and I think it mainly has to do with a reaction against Leafs fans.

As an Oiler fan, I would do the trade proposed above in a heartbeat: L. Schenn for Sam Gagner.

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Old
02-17-2012, 08:20 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
While Schenn is a 3rd pairing defenseman at this point in time, that's still more than what JVR currently is...Schenn's contract is a safer bet than JVR's as well.
So when he gets back into the lineup, will this silly point be moot? Yes, he's injured currently - he doesn't have terminal cancer. His upside still is higher and he fills a larger role then 3rd pairing defenseman when he plays.

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Old
02-17-2012, 08:28 AM
  #55
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Hmm, a risky trade for both teams. Philly needs D to replace Pronger, Leafs could use JVR, I say Philly counter offers JVR for Schenn and a 2nd

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Old
02-17-2012, 09:10 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by NitHeel View Post
So when he gets back into the lineup, will this silly point be moot? Yes, he's injured currently - he doesn't have terminal cancer. His upside still is higher and he fills a larger role then 3rd pairing defenseman when he plays.
You missed my silly point. Kind of hypocritical to peg Schenn as a 3rd pairing defenseman while talkin up JVR's upside...

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Old
02-17-2012, 11:31 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpallday View Post
Nah, Philly has to add.

JVR is damaged goods this season. I'd be interested in an offseason swap.
If JVR is "damaged goods" this season, then what is Luke Schenn?

I cannot count the number of times I have heard Leafs fans criticizing Luke Schenn this season. Several fans (yourself included I think?) have said that he is a pylon this year and is skating in quicksand. Some of you have suggested that perhaps he put on too much weight in the offseason and this is causing the skating issues.

Regardless of the excuse, a defenseman who cannot skate as well as he used to is "damaged goods" and would be utterly useless in Philadelphia's run and gun scheme where defensemen are constantly jumping into the play and are still responsible to get back in the event of a counter-rush.

If Luke Schenn does not get his speed back, then the Flyers would be trading for a career 3rd pairing defenseman. Isn't that a "risk"? And even if he does drop weight and get his speed back next year, he's utterly useless for 2011-2012 and this playoff run.

At this point, this trade makes no sense for Philadelphia. We trade a winger who has actually been a positive for us while out there (even if he is not 100%) for a defenseman that has been a struggling 3rd pairing defenseman and a healthy scratch at times this year. Another 3rd pairing defenseman does not help the Flyers at all for this year. Especially if that 3rd pairing defenseman cannot skate.

On the other hand, it makes excellent sense for Toronto. Luke Schenn has not been missed this year. He has been a healthy scratch at times this year because you have the personnel to replace him internally. His value to your team lies solely in the future, not in the current time period. So saying that the Flyers need to add because JVR is injured is so wrong. The odds of JVR having a significant positive impact for your team this year / these playoffs is much higher than the odds of Luke Schenn having a significant positive impact for your team this year / these playoffs.

Even on a deep team like the Flyers, JVR had a positive impact, an impact that cannot be replaced by his back-up players. You don't think he would have an even bigger positive impact in Toronto, where he would be replacing someone like Joey Crabb or Darryl Boyce? Come on now.

Whereas with the Flyers, who is Luke Schenn better than this year?

Kimmo Timonen? NOPE
Matt Carle? NOPE
Braydon Coburn? NOPE
Nick Grossman? NOPE
Andrej Meszaros? NOPE
Erik Gustafsson / Marc Andre Bourdon? Debatable.

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Old
02-17-2012, 12:07 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RetiredFlyer View Post
If JVR is "damaged goods" this season, then what is Luke Schenn?

I cannot count the number of times I have heard Leafs fans criticizing Luke Schenn this season. Several fans (yourself included I think?) have said that he is a pylon this year and is skating in quicksand. Some of you have suggested that perhaps he put on too much weight in the offseason and this is causing the skating issues.

Regardless of the excuse, a defenseman who cannot skate as well as he used to is "damaged goods" and would be utterly useless in Philadelphia's run and gun scheme where defensemen are constantly jumping into the play and are still responsible to get back in the event of a counter-rush.

If Luke Schenn does not get his speed back, then the Flyers would be trading for a career 3rd pairing defenseman. Isn't that a "risk"? And even if he does drop weight and get his speed back next year, he's utterly useless for 2011-2012 and this playoff run.

At this point, this trade makes no sense for Philadelphia. We trade a winger who has actually been a positive for us while out there (even if he is not 100%) for a defenseman that has been a struggling 3rd pairing defenseman and a healthy scratch at times this year. Another 3rd pairing defenseman does not help the Flyers at all for this year. Especially if that 3rd pairing defenseman cannot skate.

On the other hand, it makes excellent sense for Toronto. Luke Schenn has not been missed this year. He has been a healthy scratch at times this year because you have the personnel to replace him internally. His value to your team lies solely in the future, not in the current time period. So saying that the Flyers need to add because JVR is injured is so wrong. The odds of JVR having a significant positive impact for your team this year / these playoffs is much higher than the odds of Luke Schenn having a significant positive impact for your team this year / these playoffs.

Even on a deep team like the Flyers, JVR had a positive impact, an impact that cannot be replaced by his back-up players. You don't think he would have an even bigger positive impact in Toronto, where he would be replacing someone like Joey Crabb or Darryl Boyce? Come on now.

Whereas with the Flyers, who is Luke Schenn better than this year?

Kimmo Timonen? NOPE
Matt Carle? NOPE
Braydon Coburn? NOPE
Nick Grossman? NOPE
Andrej Meszaros? NOPE
Erik Gustafsson / Marc Andre Bourdon? Debatable.


Totally agree!!! A depth d-man is not who you trade a #2 overall pick for. You use 2nd round picks to fill those spots!

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Old
02-17-2012, 12:09 PM
  #59
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^ great post. Schenn's value is deteriorating. While I have no doubt that he will return to form and become the player that we all thought he would be, right now he isn't worth the risk. Toronto would be better off keeping him and making him work on his skating.

We already have Schenn in Mezaros and Coburn. JVR is simply not on the same level as Schenn in terms of value. JVR has proven that he can score when it matters, has put up a 20 goal season and had a great play-offs. A fully fit JVR would be a welcome boost to any team in the NHL. You are simply not going to get him for pennies, which appears to be the only reason people are pushing so hard for him.

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Old
02-17-2012, 12:23 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RetiredFlyer View Post
If JVR is "damaged goods" this season, then what is Luke Schenn?

I cannot count the number of times I have heard Leafs fans criticizing Luke Schenn this season. Several fans (yourself included I think?) have said that he is a pylon this year and is skating in quicksand. Some of you have suggested that perhaps he put on too much weight in the offseason and this is causing the skating issues.

Regardless of the excuse, a defenseman who cannot skate as well as he used to is "damaged goods" and would be utterly useless in Philadelphia's run and gun scheme where defensemen are constantly jumping into the play and are still responsible to get back in the event of a counter-rush.

If Luke Schenn does not get his speed back, then the Flyers would be trading for a career 3rd pairing defenseman. Isn't that a "risk"? And even if he does drop weight and get his speed back next year, he's utterly useless for 2011-2012 and this playoff run.
Why do people imply that Luke Schenn has been scratched multiple times? It's happened twice, both after blow outs where the whole team struggled. Luke Schenn reducing his muscle mass to become quicker is not a risk. Everyone has seen what he can do with a little more mobility, it's not a myth.

I don't see many Leaf fans making proposals for JVR. All I see is Flyer fans creaming themselves with the thought of having Schenn on their blue line. Sorry, but I don't think Burke will add to Luke, in order to get JVR. I don't really care if you think that's fair value or not.

Luke Schenn does have mobility issues, but it's not like he has been bad every game. He's just been inconsistent this year. I think he'll be money in the playoffs, while JVR won't bring much with his injury issues this season. As to you thinking that JVR will have more of an impact on a team this season, we'll just have to disagree on that.

Add in the fact that a new CBA is coming up, and JVR makes 4.25M (3rd highest salary among Leaf forwards) for the next six years, and the Leafs have no reason to get desperate over JVR. I'd rather hold on to Schenn. It wasn't too long ago that Leaf fans were in love with him for his big hits and crisp passes, and wanted him to be our next captain.

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Old
02-17-2012, 12:26 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
^ great post. Schenn's value is deteriorating. While I have no doubt that he will return to form and become the player that we all thought he would be, right now he isn't worth the risk. Toronto would be better off keeping him and making him work on his skating.

We already have Schenn in Mezaros and Coburn. JVR is simply not on the same level as Schenn in terms of value. JVR has proven that he can score when it matters, has put up a 20 goal season and had a great play-offs. A fully fit JVR would be a welcome boost to any team in the NHL. You are simply not going to get him for pennies, which appears to be the only reason people are pushing so hard for him.
Totally agree. Schenn will be a good #3-5 D-man. But like most big hitters, he will take himself out of the play to make that hit. On Philly, having Coburn, Mez and maybe Carle and Grossman...Schenn is not needed. Philly needs a #1 and when Kimmo leaves, a #2. And Schenn is neither of those. Could it be fate that Pronger gets hurt as Suter is coming available and Kimmo is a UFA when Weber is available
Weber Suter
Coburn Kimmo(on a friendly 1 year cup contract
Grossman Mez
Gus
One can dream right!!!

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Old
02-17-2012, 12:31 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
Totally agree. Schenn will be a good #3-5 D-man. But like most big hitters, he will take himself out of the play to make that hit. On Philly, having Coburn, Mez and maybe Carle and Grossman...Schenn is not needed. Philly needs a #1 and when Kimmo leaves, a #2. And Schenn is neither of those. Could it be fate that Pronger gets hurt as Suter is coming available and Kimmo is a UFA when Weber is available
Weber Suter
Coburn Kimmo(on a friendly 1 year cup contract
Grossman Mez
Gus
One can dream right!!!
That's not even remotely true.

I think you are thinking about Phaneuf.

Regardless, you guys have Grossman now. No need for you to inquire about Luke right now.

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Old
02-17-2012, 12:32 PM
  #63
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if Schenn is so great, why has he been siiting in the press box lately.
Overrated and JVR is too big of a price for Luke Schenn.
Grossman will work out fine, he has the size of Pronger and knows how to clear the net that's what Philly has been looking for. I would like to see Philly get Umberger back from Columbus, not sure about the cap space though.

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Old
02-17-2012, 12:36 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by FlyersFanz View Post
if Schenn is so great, why has he been siiting in the press box lately.
Overrated and JVR is too big of a price for Luke Schenn.
Grossman will work out fine, he has the size of Pronger and knows how to clear the net that's what Philly has been looking for. I would like to see Philly get Umberger back from Columbus, not sure about the cap space though.
What does "lately" mean to you? One game?

Don't know why you feel the need to insult our players. A Leaf fan didn't even make this proposal.

Schenn hasn't been great overall this season, but I don't know why you would think that Leaf fans said this unless you were trying to start a flame war.

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02-17-2012, 12:36 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by jpallday View Post
Why do people imply that Luke Schenn has been scratched multiple times? It's happened twice, both after blow outs where the whole team struggled. Luke Schenn reducing his muscle mass to become quicker is not a risk. Everyone has seen what he can do with a little more mobility, it's not a myth.

I don't see many Leaf fans making proposals for JVR. All I see is Flyer fans creaming themselves with the thought of having Schenn on their blue line. Sorry, but I don't think Burke will add to Luke, in order to get JVR. I don't really care if you think that's fair value or not.

Luke Schenn does have mobility issues, but it's not like he has been bad every game. He's just been inconsistent this year. I think he'll be money in the playoffs, while JVR won't bring much with his injury issues this season. As to you thinking that JVR will have more of an impact on a team this season, we'll just have to disagree on that.

Add in the fact that a new CBA is coming up, and JVR makes 4.25M (3rd highest salary among Leaf forwards) for the next six years, and the Leafs have no reason to get desperate over JVR. I'd rather hold on to Schenn. It wasn't too long ago that Leaf fans were in love with him for his big hits and crisp passes, and wanted him to be our next captain.
Sorry...not exactly true. We..along with the other non Leaf fans are the ones saying that if you want JVR...it will take more than Schenn. That is what we ALLLLLL are saying. As for Leafs fans souring on Schenn, I agree with you. Last year he was loved. This year...not so much. How about we both agree that JVR should be traded in a package for a real #1 D and Schenn should be added in a package for a real #1 C.

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