HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

TSN 990: As per a Habs executive they are NOT re-building

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-17-2012, 01:08 PM
  #151
Whitesnake
Habs of steel
 
Whitesnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lorraine, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 49,016
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Funny how Montreal gets ragged on for fans, media and "circus atmosphere" but when Rutheford dumps his fresh FA acquisition it's just business.
Well you can't compare the avalanche of things we had this year compared to this 1 trade Rutherford made? And that's even if I think that this whole circus thing was totally made up by most people, you just can't pretend that it was a pretty quiet year....

Whitesnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2012, 01:08 PM
  #152
windycity
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Well duh
Posts: 3,270
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I can't believe Habs fans would want to trade Cole after his first successful year as a FA signing.
Can't speak for others but I don't want to trade him unless the price is right. And it would have to be a very high price which we'd be unlikely to get anyways

windycity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2012, 01:09 PM
  #153
WhiskeySeven
Mr. Worldwide
 
WhiskeySeven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 15,399
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
You know this how? You Chrystal ball telling you this? There is ZERO proof of this yet so....
Don't be so contrarian. Agents talk. They won't want to deal with an ornery ******* general manager who doesn't stand by his players, especially if he's gonna fire the coach anyway.

WhiskeySeven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2012, 01:15 PM
  #154
Beakermania*
 
Beakermania*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kingston or Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,964
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Well you can't compare the avalanche of things we had this year compared to this 1 trade Rutherford made? And that's even if I think that this whole circus thing was totally made up by most people, you just can't pretend that it was a pretty quiet year....
Personally I'm not really comparing it to Rutherford. Just saying that trading Cole right now would be one more checkmark against the Habs when competing for Future UFAs.

Yes the media/fan circus is worse than what Rutherford said about Kaberle.

However that doesn't mean its a good idea to add to the problems, by dealing Cole.

Beakermania* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2012, 01:20 PM
  #155
Whitesnake
Habs of steel
 
Whitesnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lorraine, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 49,016
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Personally I'm not really comparing it to Rutherford. Just saying that trading Cole right now would be one more checkmark against the Habs when competing for Future UFAs.

Yes the media/fan circus is worse than what Rutherford said about Kaberle.

However that doesn't mean its a good idea to add to the problems, by dealing Cole.
By the way, was just responding to the "Future FA's theory". I don't want Cole to be traded. For once we have a good powerforward who actually...powerforces? This guy stays even though I know he will slow down in his final years. And people should also bet that Pacioretty is learning from Cole. So before we let the baby bird fly out of his nest alone, be sure that the mother is nearby for now.

Whitesnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2012, 01:30 PM
  #156
uiCk
GrEmelins
 
uiCk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: MTL
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,363
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
By the way, was just responding to the "Future FA's theory". I don't want Cole to be traded. For once we have a good powerforward who actually...powerforces? This guy stays even though I know he will slow down in his final years. And people should also bet that Pacioretty is learning from Cole. So before we let the baby bird fly out of his nest alone, be sure that the mother is nearby for now.
Agree much on the last part.
I can see how trading Cole would be a good move, in a world where habs were not a buisness and developpment through players is inexistant. In that world, it would make sense to trade him high. But in that world we wouldn't of need to sign him to a 4 year contract, and in that world all our prospects would pan out and there would be no FA.

But since it's business first, where development of players like patches are determined by his environment, and winning players like Cole and a winning team, it would probably be a bad move, even though we will all moan and cry in his last year about what bad singing it was.

uiCk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2012, 01:32 PM
  #157
PricePkPatch
Registered User
 
PricePkPatch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,124
vCash: 500
Why is there even talks of Cole? The man has a NTC, it was the ultimate argument that made him sign over.

Now, if you want a player that would probably, right now, give us a strong return on what he potentially can give us (if we believe some posters here), it's David Desharnais.

Personally, I'd dislike the trade of DD except for some very strong return, like an early 1st. But I am willing to consider I have a skewed view of the man, and I might be overhyping him.

Doesn't change the fact that he is playing amazing, and would be a very solid 2nd or 3rd liner on many team. Plus, he has another year to his contract, is RFA, and is still improving. I am sure we could get juicy bits for him.

PricePkPatch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2012, 01:36 PM
  #158
Ollie Williams
Registered User
 
Ollie Williams's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,065
vCash: 50
Hey if we get a really high pick in the draft, there is no reason we can't add that new player to our core. Also, why all the talks of trading DD? Sure we can get a good return but I wouldn't mind keeping the Pac - DD - Cole line in place. If that line continues to be amazing as it has been this year, no reason we can't keep them like that...

Ollie Williams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2012, 01:42 PM
  #159
swimmer77
Post Oates
 
swimmer77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: in water
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,404
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Yeah, take the year with a coach firing to make your point. Gauthier did nothing to encourage the circus atmosphere, that's ******** like Francois Gagnon and the bottom-feeding fans who eat that trash up. People with half a brain can see the bigger picture.

Why do you blast him for "dragging the team down" but not for the final four finish?

Could it be that you are stuck in the present and can't understand that there are VARIABLES to every situation? That you can't see that overall, in general, the organization is lightyears removed from 2002? Maybe.



Sather treated Redden very fairly, never made public announcements blasting his work ethic and gave him more than TWO FRIGGIN MONTHS.
Um.......so you are giving all of the credit to Gauthier when he actually became GM in February of 2010? Hmmmm.........the team was pretty much in tact. The more he flirts with it the worse it gets was my point.

Tell Gauthier about the variables - not me (uh-hmmmmm Markovariable)

swimmer77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2012, 01:43 PM
  #160
Miller Time
Registered User
 
Miller Time's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,316
vCash: 500
if they aren't focused on "re-building" in the sense of working feverishly to move the UFA's they don't intend to re-sign & the vets they don't consider a firm/clear part of the plan for success, than that's all the evidence we need that this organization is completely devoid of the kind of leadership we need.


we'll know enough in 10 days

Miller Time is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2012, 01:46 PM
  #161
Beakermania*
 
Beakermania*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kingston or Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,964
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
if they aren't focused on "re-building" in the sense of working feverishly to move the UFA's they don't intend to re-sign & the vets they don't consider a firm/clear part of the plan for success, than that's all the evidence we need that this organization is completely devoid of the kind of leadership we need.


we'll know enough in 10 days
I agree they should do that, but that isnt rebuilding, its retooling.

Beakermania* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2012, 01:48 PM
  #162
Kirk Muller
Registered User
 
Kirk Muller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Brrr -18, Gomez Cold
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,073
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Don't be so contrarian. Agents talk. They won't want to deal with an ornery ******* general manager who doesn't stand by his players, especially if he's gonna fire the coach anyway.
An agents job is to get his player the best contract available. At the end of the day, it comes down to money and if a player ever wanted to sign there to begin with.

If i am a free agent, i want a GM willing to dump sacks of crap like Kaberle and admit the mistake and deal with it. Or would you prefer GM's like Montreal have had who not only bring in washed up players like Gomez and Kaberle but sit idly by as they are a detriment to the team.

Kirk Muller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2012, 01:53 PM
  #163
swimmer77
Post Oates
 
swimmer77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: in water
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,404
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Huge differences.

1) Cole was a free agent Gauthier reportedly contacted at 12:01 on July 1st and was signed by 2:00 or 3:00 pm that day. He was a prime target and had choices who to sign with and choose Montreal. Kaberle was signed much later into free agency and never had those same choices.
2) Kaberle showed up to Canes camp out of shape and proceeded to start the season very slowly and not producing. He didn't fit in with the team and its showed. Cole has done everything asked of him by the Habs, has been a leader for the team, and is producing at a great rate.


Kaberle can be seen as contributing to his own trade and it really wasnt working in Carolina.

Cole has clearly done nothing wrong in Montreal. He fits with the team, he has played well. He is everything we asked him to be. Hes even involved in the community and with charities and the like.


Future UFAs will be able to explain and justify the Canes trading Kaberle, they wont look the same way on Habs trading Cole.
I agree 100 %.

Just threw it out there because it can happen for the right reasons. And the other message from Rutherford "if I give you a fair contract, be ready to play". And I don't like Kaberle because of what he did.

Gleason re-signed so Carolina will be fine with UFA's.

swimmer77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2012, 01:53 PM
  #164
Beakermania*
 
Beakermania*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kingston or Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,964
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
An agents job is to get his player the best contract available. At the end of the day, it comes down to money and if a player ever wanted to sign there to begin with.

If i am a free agent, i want a GM willing to dump sacks of crap like Kaberle and admit the mistake and deal with it. Or would you prefer GM's like Montreal have had who not only bring in washed up players like Gomez and Kaberle but sit idly by as they are a detriment to the team.
The best contract available isnt always just about money, there are other factors involved.

Beakermania* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2012, 01:54 PM
  #165
MasterDecoy
Carlos Danger
 
MasterDecoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Beijing
Posts: 10,700
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
You see sideways moves. I see organizational restructuring.

The braintrust has always said they want sustainable success and if you look at Washington, a traditional tank-nation example, you could see the crumbling of a non-empire. I LOVE the NJD/DET model and we're so fkn close to getting it. Our franchise player is finally entering his prime, we're attracting prime UFAs and coaching talent (Cunny and Boucher were both highly touted), we're drafting better than ever and attracting talent from overseas (Diaz, Emelin).

This kind of evolution takes tons of time and patience. Gainey had it, his NHL moves were rather mediocre but his organizational moves were ace. Gauthier is just continuing that and he's doing an even better job.

No one wants to not win the cup, but you see numbers in the standing column when we were in fact a goal from beating the Bruins. Games are played on ice and we're better on the ice than ever before. That's sustainable success, and we're on our way.
you're not gonna convince lafleur's guy that there is any other way to build a franchise.

you can't build a successful franchise with only kids, you need veterans. no two ways about it.

and where did this "trade them while their value is high" ******** comes from anyways? chara should probably be traded since he's old and his value is high. and that's not even talking about the hole they leave in the organization and the above average chance that the POSSIBLY late first round you get for cole busts and the high chance he never gets as good as cole.

besides, teams don't trade players when their value is high unless they are pending UFAs or in the rare case of a goligoski for neal type-trade, a sideways move to fill hole in the lineup.

MasterDecoy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2012, 01:56 PM
  #166
beowulf
Not a nice guy.
 
beowulf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 37,775
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to beowulf
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Kremelin Wall View Post
Desharnais is a faceoff specialist? Hahaahahahahahaahaa
Exactly the first thing that jumped to my mind....to be a face-off specialist you need to be way better then a 50/50 guy. Heck he is a tad behind Plecks at the moment.

As for the rebuild vs retool...well I would prefer more then a simple retool but a complete blow up of the team is not needed. I think a top 5 pick, and a proper pick, will be key to helping out. Then again the way things work in Hab-land, even if we got the first overall he would be sent back down or if he made the team he would be playing 4th line minutes.

beowulf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2012, 01:57 PM
  #167
swimmer77
Post Oates
 
swimmer77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: in water
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,404
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Don't be so contrarian. Agents talk. They won't want to deal with an ornery ******* general manager who doesn't stand by his players, especially if he's gonna fire the coach anyway.
You're right! Enrolling Kaberle in Weight Watchers would have been the better thing for Rutherford to do.

swimmer77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2012, 02:09 PM
  #168
MasterDecoy
Carlos Danger
 
MasterDecoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Beijing
Posts: 10,700
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Why is there even talks of Cole? The man has a NTC, it was the ultimate argument that made him sign over.

Now, if you want a player that would probably, right now, give us a strong return on what he potentially can give us (if we believe some posters here), it's David Desharnais.

Personally, I'd dislike the trade of DD except for some very strong return, like an early 1st. But I am willing to consider I have a skewed view of the man, and I might be overhyping him.

Doesn't change the fact that he is playing amazing, and would be a very solid 2nd or 3rd liner on many team. Plus, he has another year to his contract, is RFA, and is still improving. I am sure we could get juicy bits for him.
correct me if im wrong but after next year, DD is RFA right? the best course of action is probably to hold on to him and his 800k salary (lol) until next year and consider your options, he ups his production to 70-80. you ****ing keep this guy. he stay around 60 (now) or regresses a bit (55-60), you could easily move him then

MasterDecoy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2012, 02:10 PM
  #169
Et le But
Moderator
 
Et le But's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York
Country: Argentina
Posts: 18,012
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
Exactly the first thing that jumped to my mind....to be a face-off specialist you need to be way better then a 50/50 guy. Heck he is a tad behind Plecks at the moment.
Plekanec has been above 50% for the past two weeks except against the Pens and Bruins, teams where he was typically the man expected to take faceoffs against some guys elite in that category. And while he was embarassed against Pittsburgh, both him and Deshanais were at least able to keep it above 40% against Boston. Holding Bergeron to 52% is respectable, considering his reach advantage.

It's great how Desharnais fights for faceoffs despite the physical disadvantage, but I'm not convinced he's better at it than Plekanec, let alone a "specialist". Yet people only mention Pleks in talking about faceoffs when he has a bad game.

Et le But is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2012, 02:14 PM
  #170
Gustave
Registered User
 
Gustave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Here
Country: Vatican City State
Posts: 3,070
vCash: 500
Gill has been traded to Nashville, so we are sellers.

Gustave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2012, 02:16 PM
  #171
swimmer77
Post Oates
 
swimmer77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: in water
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,404
vCash: 500
Not if Shea Weber's coming in return. LOL

swimmer77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2012, 02:19 PM
  #172
Kirk Muller
Registered User
 
Kirk Muller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Brrr -18, Gomez Cold
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,073
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
The best contract available isnt always just about money, there are other factors involved.

of course there is, which is why i said its about money AND if a player wants to sign there to begin with. Its going to be the player who decides how he feels about the organization, family life, etc and its the agents job to deal on the financial aspect of things.

Kirk Muller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2012, 02:38 PM
  #173
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 23,223
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
You see sideways moves. I see organizational restructuring.
Koivu, Tanguay, Saku gone vs. Gionta, Gomez, Cammy coming... That's not a sideways move?

You see it as organizational restructuring? Call it whatever you want it is not rebuilding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
The braintrust has always said they want sustainable success and if you look at Washington, a traditional tank-nation example, you could see the crumbling of a non-empire. I LOVE the NJD/DET model and we're so fkn close to getting it. Our franchise player is finally entering his prime, we're attracting prime UFAs and coaching talent (Cunny and Boucher were both highly touted), we' re drafting better than ever and attracting talent from overseas (Diaz, Emelin).
I dont' care what the braintrust says... that's the difference between you and me, I know when I'm being BS'd. The only thing we've sustained is 8th place. I look at the moves that we've MADE and then make a decision on where we're going. The only thing that management has shown interest in is treading water. That's it. Harold Ballard said he wanted to win the cup and that was it. I have no doubt that if you were a Leaf fan you'd have taken him at his word too.

You sit there and you say you want more than 8th place finishes... well, then why do you keep defending the team when we make moves designed for 8th place?
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
This kind of evolution takes tons of time and patience. Gainey had it, his NHL moves were rather mediocre but his organizational moves were ace. Gauthier is just continuing that and he's doing an even better job.
How is sticking us with Kaberle a better job? How is it in any way a rebuilding move or a move towards a cup? It's a panic move designed for 8th place this year and that's it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
No one wants to not win the cup, but you see numbers in the standing column when we were in fact a goal from beating the Bruins. Games are played on ice and we're better on the ice than ever before. That's sustainable success, and we're on our way.
Maybe we are on our way. But we could go a heck of a lot faster if we actually rebuilt. This was true 15, 10, 5 years ago and it's true today.

But the club doesn't care about this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
And all I'm arguing is ignoring the whole "you don't treat free agents this way" angle.

Rutherford shot himself in the foot, no one wants to sign for his organization with how he treated Kaberle. Rutherford should've stuck by his investment, especially if he was going to fire the coach anyway - instead he threw him under the bus.
You talk like we'd be trading Cole to Siberia...

Dude, the fact of the matter is that when he signed his deal here it was an overpayment. Nobody was going to give him that money with that term except us because we're desperate for 8th. To his credit, Cole has exceeded all expectations and good for him. But we're not going anywhere with him and he knows it. Dealing him to Vancouver, Detroit or some other team that actually has a shot at winning is not going to piss him off. Besides the guy has a NTC doesn't he? We'd have to get his permission anyway.

And let's face it man, FAs come and go. This is the business. Cole got a great contract from us and he could go somewhere and win a cup. It's not like we're suggesting that we trade him in the middle of a game the way we did with Cammy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The n00b King View Post
Trading Cole now would be, by far, the dumbest thing ever.

The guy is EVERYTHING this team has needed for years. It would reflect incredibly badly on the Habs if they traded him.

I love the guy, there's no ****ing way I would be okay with trading him now.
He is everything we've needed for years and if he was 26 it would make sense to keep him with the club we have now. But he's not and we're not contenders and his stock is high... No reason not to trade him for something good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I can't believe Habs fans would want to trade Cole after his first successful year as a FA signing.
I can't believe people aren't more open to the idea of trading him and selling high for once.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 02-17-2012 at 02:46 PM.
Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2012, 02:42 PM
  #174
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 23,223
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
you're not gonna convince lafleur's guy that there is any other way to build a franchise.

you can't build a successful franchise with only kids, you need veterans. no two ways about it.

and where did this "trade them while their value is high" ******** comes from anyways? chara should probably be traded since he's old and his value is high. and that's not even talking about the hole they leave in the organization and the above average chance that the POSSIBLY late first round you get for cole busts and the high chance he never gets as good as cole.

besides, teams don't trade players when their value is high unless they are pending UFAs or in the rare case of a goligoski for neal type-trade, a sideways move to fill hole in the lineup.
I don't disagree with this. I'm not saying we trade everyone. But to close your eyes and ears to offers involving Cole is silly. We should look at dealing away at least one of our better vets for picks and prospects. It doesn't have to be all of them, we just need to do more of this.

The Gill trade was a good one and we'll try to get more for more of our spare parts. That's all good. But we should also think about dealing off a Pleks, Cole, Kosti etc... that's where the better returns are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
and where did this "trade them while their value is high" ******** comes from anyways? chara should probably be traded since he's old and his value is high. and that's not even talking about the hole they leave in the organization and the above average chance that the POSSIBLY late first round you get for cole busts and the high chance he never gets as good as cole.
Yeah, what a crazy idea. We should just bench our players and drive their value into the ground before we trade them. Oh look, we're doing that now with Kosti anyway... Good job!

As for Chara... the Bruins actually have a shot at a cup this year man. We don't. If you don't understand this then I don't know what to tell you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
besides, teams don't trade players when their value is high unless they are pending UFAs or in the rare case of a goligoski for neal type-trade, a sideways move to fill hole in the lineup.
Again, this is BS and even if it wasn't it still doesn't negate it as a good idea.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2012, 07:12 PM
  #175
Miller Time
Registered User
 
Miller Time's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,316
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
I agree they should do that, but that isnt rebuilding, its retooling.
meh, there isn't a dictionary definition of "re-tooling" vs "re-building", as much as us fans like to believe our idea of it is the right one.

Bottom line is that trades like the one today, are exactly the direction we need to be moving in short term.

Managed properly, we have enough roster depth & assets to be a playoff contender again next year, and with the right moves, a serious contender within 2-3 seasons.

Price, Subban, Gorges, Pacioretty, Plekanec, Eller, Cole... that's a quality group to build around, especially if we find a way to better use the ~12M$ currently tied up with Gomez/Kaberle.

Miller Time is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:51 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.