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Old
11-08-2003, 04:02 PM
  #51
Deader
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Originally Posted by nathan
But at the same time, Skoula should have learned a thing or two with all those star defensemen in front of him.

Even vets like Adam Foote and Rob Blake learned something from Raymond Bourque.
from that standpoint i absolutely agree with you

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11-09-2003, 07:29 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by ABasin
He's not even close. Liles has been a nice surprise, but if you watch him closely, he is often grossly out of position in his own end.
I just read through everything said after this comment towards me and I don't even get the impression that you 100% believe that Skoula is better than Liles at the moment. You're going to have a tough sell using positioning as the determining factor between the two because Skoula's is no better than Liles' and he's in his 5th season at the moment compared to Liles' first. Going by "he's not even close", that suggests Skoula is by far better than Liles in at least a few aspects; so, please inform me what makes Skoula so much better than Liles right now. Liles does make some poor positioning decisions, but the discussion is a comparison with Skoula and not whether Liles is a solid player in all zones right now.

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11-09-2003, 07:37 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Deader
but Klesla should have been able to make a better impact on Columbus's system then Skoula in the Avs System,with all these star defensemen in front of him


Klesla was several times a healthy scratch,that's the point i'm thinking about
That's an incorrect view to take. Klesla has more pressure to perform on what has been one of the poorest defensive teams in the last decade. The Jackets played an early 90's approach to defense and that's why Denis led all goaltenders in a stat category like shots faced and saves made. They had no defensive system to speak of and no talent capable of outscoring other teams; so, they relied heavily on the goaltender and hoped their PP could get some goals. It's not accurate to judge Klesla unless you fully understand how bad the Jackets have been as a team. And realistically, no one but a major Skoula fan would take Skoula over Klesla. Klesla may be struggling, but he's still much more promising than Skoula.

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11-09-2003, 05:21 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Laperriere22
I just read through everything said after this comment towards me and I don't even get the impression that you 100% believe that Skoula is better than Liles at the moment. You're going to have a tough sell using positioning as the determining factor between the two because Skoula's is no better than Liles' and he's in his 5th season at the moment compared to Liles' first. Going by "he's not even close", that suggests Skoula is by far better than Liles in at least a few aspects; so, please inform me what makes Skoula so much better than Liles right now. Liles does make some poor positioning decisions, but the discussion is a comparison with Skoula and not whether Liles is a solid player in all zones right now.
I don't think Liles has proven anything, except that he's got some good offensive instincts. He's played 10 games at the NHL level. Wow. Skoula, his ofttime inconsistency notwithstanding, has played 5 full seasons in some of the toughest games one can play in. While Skoula hasn't reminded anyone of Ray Bourque so far this year, no way is Liles the player Skoula is.

For example, Joe Sakic is off to a fairly slow start so far this year. Not playing up to his usual standards. If some rookie in the league happens to be playing better than he is for the first 10 games of the year (and several have point totals at or above Sakic's totals so far), will we then claim that rookie to be better than Sakic?

Liles hasn't played a single playoff game in his life, and has only played 4 or 5 against teams that made the playoffs last year. Let's let him grow a hair or two on his nuts before we start claiming he's better than any veteran - even one as young and inconsistent as Skoula.

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11-09-2003, 06:53 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by ABasin
I don't think Liles has proven anything, except that he's got some good offensive instincts. He's played 10 games at the NHL level. Wow. Skoula, his ofttime inconsistency notwithstanding, has played 5 full seasons in some of the toughest games one can play in. While Skoula hasn't reminded anyone of Ray Bourque so far this year, no way is Liles the player Skoula is.

For example, Joe Sakic is off to a fairly slow start so far this year. Not playing up to his usual standards. If some rookie in the league happens to be playing better than he is for the first 10 games of the year (and several have point totals at or above Sakic's totals so far), will we then claim that rookie to be better than Sakic?

Liles hasn't played a single playoff game in his life, and has only played 4 or 5 against teams that made the playoffs last year. Let's let him grow a hair or two on his nuts before we start claiming he's better than any veteran - even one as young and inconsistent as Skoula.

That's the reasoning of flawed logic ABasin. Skoula has never shown the calibur of play that Sakic has so using Sakic as an example is inheritly flawed. Skoula has numerous examples of poor play in his own end, some exceptionally memorable. Liles is only one year younger than Skoula and it's obvious to me in just watching him play that he has superior defensive instincts over Skoula. Liles knows when he's on the boards and he loses position, when to tie up the stick and skate back to where he needs to be. Liles knows where the opposing forwards are coming back into his own zone and hasn't as of yet got caught out of position in the neutral zone missreading a pinch or a possession. We've seen this at least three times so far this year with Skoula, all of which have led to quality scoring chances. Tonight against Chicago Skoula got undressed and the forward danced all alone right in front of Aebischer.

Defensemen get out of position all the time. It's "ok" to be out of position as a defenseman depending on who has the puck, which zone you are in, the score, and what type of defenseman you are. For example, Blake is often out of position. He makes up for his cheating with a very long reach and relatively fast skating (if not nimble). Liles can get out of position as well but he relies on his exceptional skating to put himself back into position. When Liles faces much bigger forwards along the boards he uses a combination of poke checks and leaning heavily on the angles of his skates to pinch a defenseman. A 1x1 block properly placed behind the wheel of a 40 ton coal loader can immobilize it, and such is the case with proper checking technique on the boards. Skoula's positioning against a forward on the boards is nothing short of junior league level. He's trailing the forward, but follows them too far if they swing up the boards to the point. He spins away from the puck when repositioning himself, instead of towards it. For a glaring example of his antithesis look at Adam Foote. He'll chase a foward up the boards while poke checking, then peal off the forward at the top of the faceoff hashmarks, he will quickly switch to a backwards crossover and float back down into position while keeping the play in front of him. It may not seem like a big deal, but it saves goals. It saves forwards from having to backcheck down into the slots as a defenseman because you chased too far, it keeps fowards fresh for a breakout because they can stay higher in the defensive zone, and it prevents injury to said forwards over the longhaul as well. If you're an observer of hockey I really don't understand how you can look at both Skoula and Liles and not see the descrepancy in solid defenseman fundamentals. We can, and likely will disagree on this but I'm of the opinion of others in this thred that Liles is already a much better defenseman than Martin Skoula.

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11-09-2003, 07:20 PM
  #56
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why skoula is still with the team...

CHICAGO (AP) - Steve Konowalchuk helped the Colorado Avalanche to another come-from-behind win.

Konowalchuk scored his second goal of the game on a deflection with 5.5 seconds remaining in overtime to give the Avalanche a 4-3 victory over the Chicago Blackhawks. He redirected Martin Skoula's low shot from the point high over the shoulder of goalie Michael Leighton.

``I just went to the net,'' Konowalchuk said. ``Whoever shot it threaded it through two people's legs. Not too many people make that play and I just got my stick on it.''

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11-09-2003, 07:36 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by jericholic19
CHICAGO (AP) - Steve Konowalchuk helped the Colorado Avalanche to another come-from-behind win.

Konowalchuk scored his second goal of the game on a deflection with 5.5 seconds remaining in overtime to give the Avalanche a 4-3 victory over the Chicago Blackhawks. He redirected Martin Skoula's low shot from the point high over the shoulder of goalie Michael Leighton.

``I just went to the net,'' Konowalchuk said. ``Whoever shot it threaded it through two people's legs. Not too many people make that play and I just got my stick on it.''

so what are you tryna say? huh, punk? you tryuna say skoula is goood??? hahahahhahhha :p

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11-09-2003, 08:17 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack
so what are you tryna say? huh, punk? you tryuna say skoula is goood??? hahahahhahhha :p
Hey a blind squirrel will find a nut every once in a while

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11-09-2003, 08:51 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Jori_18_23
Hey a blind squirrel will find a nut every once in a while
LMAO! and the rangers are due to make the playoffs every so often. the broncos are bound to have a healthy quarterback. lappy will eventually have something good to say about the avs. yes, all of them don't happen often

Seriously, skoula can be an offensive phenom if he wasn't such a liability. he certainly has a good offensive perspective of the game. but i think he'll be traded this year. the avs can't afford to go through the playoffs without a full complement of players who can be relied upon.

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11-09-2003, 09:07 PM
  #60
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Apparently, Dario wants in on this one (with a longwinded response that I like to see ); so, I'll turn it over to Dario. No sense in being redundant.

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11-10-2003, 07:11 AM
  #61
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It's been years since I've watched Ozo play regularly, but aren't he and Skoula kind of similar defensively? And if so, is his offensive upside enough to make up for his defensive shortcomings, if he's not counted on to do adult things like kill penalties and face top lines? I am just wondering if maybe his lot is going to be as a third pairing, primarily offensive guy who may one day learn to play D better, or may not.

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11-10-2003, 07:36 AM
  #62
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Ozo was a much better offensive player than Skoula is. Much better. Ozo pinched in much better and was much better on the power play as the QB. Ozo also didn't make nearly as many poor decisions with the puck in his own end while Skoula continues to make bad decisions in his own end by making poor outlet passes on the tape of the oppenent's sticks and turning the puck over far too often.

I think Ozo's defensive problems were mostly because he was out of position because he was taking too many offensive chances. Skoula's defensive problems are because he often doesn't cover a man at all, he doesn't use his size, he's a bit slow, and he just appears to be dumb when it comes to what to do and when to do it.

Hell, if the Avs could get Ozolinsh for Skoula straight up I'd do it in a heartbeat.

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11-10-2003, 08:18 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by hoserthehorrible
Ozo was a much better offensive player than Skoula is. Much better. Ozo pinched in much better and was much better on the power play as the QB. Ozo also didn't make nearly as many poor decisions with the puck in his own end while Skoula continues to make bad decisions in his own end by making poor outlet passes on the tape of the oppenent's sticks and turning the puck over far too often.

I think Ozo's defensive problems were mostly because he was out of position because he was taking too many offensive chances. Skoula's defensive problems are because he often doesn't cover a man at all, he doesn't use his size, he's a bit slow, and he just appears to be dumb when it comes to what to do and when to do it.

Hell, if the Avs could get Ozolinsh for Skoula straight up I'd do it in a heartbeat.
i completely agree wth you hoser

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11-10-2003, 08:29 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by DarioinDenver
We can, and likely will disagree on this but I'm of the opinion of others in this thred that Liles is already a much better defenseman than Martin Skoula.
Liles has played a grand total of 11 games in the NHL, DD. Eleven. Games. If I remember correctly, Avs' fans all over the pueblo were jumping up and down over Skoula's first 80-someodd games, too.

I don't necessarily disagree with some of your points in your post, but Liles hasn't proven anything except that he can play reasonably well as the 6th defenseman in the first month of a regular season against mostly non-playoff teams. If the Avs get to the conference finals and Liles plays this way all the way through those games, I'll change my opinion.

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11-10-2003, 08:47 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by hoserthehorrible
Ozo was a much better offensive player than Skoula is. Much better. Ozo pinched in much better and was much better on the power play as the QB. Ozo also didn't make nearly as many poor decisions with the puck in his own end while Skoula continues to make bad decisions in his own end by making poor outlet passes on the tape of the oppenent's sticks and turning the puck over far too often.

I think Ozo's defensive problems were mostly because he was out of position because he was taking too many offensive chances. Skoula's defensive problems are because he often doesn't cover a man at all, he doesn't use his size, he's a bit slow, and he just appears to be dumb when it comes to what to do and when to do it.

Hell, if the Avs could get Ozolinsh for Skoula straight up I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Oh, I know that Ozo is way better offensively than Skoula, I didn't mean to sound like I was comparing them in all aspects of their games. I was just thinking that maybe Skoula's lot is ultimately to be a mostly offensive d-man (and by that I do not mean his *defense* is offensive ), and that maybe we can afford to carry him as a third pairing guy who can still QB the PP sometimes. Maybe we can't afford to carry someone like that, especially if Liles ends up being as good as we think he might be. I was just thinking aloud and wondering if we accept Skoula for what he is, he might not disappoint so much. Of course, if we could get value in a trade for him, we should do it. Ballard and Boychuk and Slovak, etc. give us a lot of potential future depth and we won't likely need Skoula as much as we do now. And yes, as boneheaded as he can play, I think we do need him right now. He's still a lot better than DJ Smith and Brett Clark.

Back to Ozo, I remember him pinching and getting caught a lot, but I also remember him getting the puck taken from him in his own zone, and making bad passes the same way Skoula has been doing.

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11-10-2003, 12:10 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by FarOutCrops
Oh, I know that Ozo is way better offensively than Skoula, I didn't mean to sound like I was comparing them in all aspects of their games. I was just thinking that maybe Skoula's lot is ultimately to be a mostly offensive d-man (and by that I do not mean his *defense* is offensive ), and that maybe we can afford to carry him as a third pairing guy who can still QB the PP sometimes. Maybe we can't afford to carry someone like that, especially if Liles ends up being as good as we think he might be. I was just thinking aloud and wondering if we accept Skoula for what he is, he might not disappoint so much. Of course, if we could get value in a trade for him, we should do it. Ballard and Boychuk and Slovak, etc. give us a lot of potential future depth and we won't likely need Skoula as much as we do now. And yes, as boneheaded as he can play, I think we do need him right now. He's still a lot better than DJ Smith and Brett Clark.

Back to Ozo, I remember him pinching and getting caught a lot, but I also remember him getting the puck taken from him in his own zone, and making bad passes the same way Skoula has been doing.
I agree that Smith or Clark are NOT better options than Skoula is right now. I do think that we can and should try and get what we can for him as soon as we have a suitable replacement though. Either via a trade this year or perhaps next year if/when a couple young guns like Ballard/Slovak/Boychuck show they can cut it in the NHL.

I think Skoula's had the time to get over his youthful inexperience and start fullfilling some of his potential and he's just not making progress. If anything, he's going backwards in his development. Morris makes some bad plays now and then too but he lives up to his potential often enough to make me believe he's making good progress.

Ozo did cough the puck up in his own zone but I don't think it was nearly as much as Skoula does. Ozo was frustrating to me because he was caught out of position too much trying to pinch and the Avs gave up too many odd man rushes.

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11-11-2003, 10:31 AM
  #67
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I hate Skoula!!! He just WILL NOT learn. He's definetly not improving. Forsberg was a -1 last game because why?? Partly because Skoula was on defense with the Forsberg line. Did you see all the mistakes Skoula made???!!!!

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11-11-2003, 11:18 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by hoserthehorrible
I think Skoula's had the time to get over his youthful inexperience and start fullfilling some of his potential and he's just not making progress. If anything, he's going backwards in his development. Morris makes some bad plays now and then too but he lives up to his potential often enough to make me believe he's making good progress.
I agree. I was going to make mention, and evidently forgot to, how well Skoula played a few years back in the playoff run. He was poised, didn't panic, and did not look like a kid at all. Nowadays he looks awful over half the time. Is he one of those players you just can't reach? Is he this bad in practice, or does he have some sort of a problem once he's in real game action? It's pretty clear that he's very mellow, so that might play into it. I'd like to see him get in a scrap, anything, just to see if he's got some fire in his belly. All indications seem to be that he doesn't. That's one thing about Morris, even though he makes some pretty bad gaffes, he always plays hard and has a mean streak. I think you need to have some fire, and the ability to temporarily hate your opponent's guts, to be good at it. Only the incredibly talented can get away with playing D without heart and balls. I think this may be one of Skoula's biggest problems. Maybe he should be moved to forward. Or to Toronto.

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11-11-2003, 11:21 AM
  #69
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Anyone in Denver hearing on the radio that Foote is out for the season? Someone on the Avs message board on the Avs official site is claiming they just heard it. Could be a troll. Just looking for confirmation

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11-11-2003, 11:24 AM
  #70
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Anyone in Denver hearing on the radio that Foote is out for the season? Someone on the Avs message board on the Avs official site is claiming they just heard it. Could be a troll. Just looking for confirmation
That would be odd. I mean, we almost know it's not really a hamstring, but for it to be something season-ending, it would have to be a knee or something that requires serious surgery. Better not be true. :mad:

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11-11-2003, 11:27 AM
  #71
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or season ending back surgery. Still not found any confirmation

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11-11-2003, 01:42 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by avfan#21
Anyone in Denver hearing on the radio that Foote is out for the season? Someone on the Avs message board on the Avs official site is claiming they just heard it. Could be a troll. Just looking for confirmation
Been listening to am 950 all day, and haven't heard word one about that. Probably just some dude messing with you.

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