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Jets trade Riley Holzapfel to Anaheim for Maxime Macenauer

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Old
02-15-2012, 05:48 PM
  #126
HannuJ
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look how well FA treated Buffalo.
the problem with the Jets is that you have talented forwards - Kane, Wheeler, Ladd, Burmistrov - but no superstar.

Scheifele may be 1-3 years away from joining the team. a 8-10 overall draft pick likely doesn't land a superstar.

Then you risk Bogo leaving in 2 years via free agency.

so you need a boat load of top prospects before the ship is righted. either that or have some Burke-esque luck via trades.

But I'd totally dump Kane in a heartbeat. Wheeler, Bogo and Pavlovic are the only 3 players I'd keep. The rest are tradeable for younger assets or highish 1st round draft picks.

Team needs talent and a shuffle in chemistry. status quo won't cut it.

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02-15-2012, 10:38 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by yogistewart View Post
look how well FA treated Buffalo.
the problem with the Jets is that you have talented forwards - Kane, Wheeler, Ladd, Burmistrov - but no superstar.

Scheifele may be 1-3 years away from joining the team. a 8-10 overall draft pick likely doesn't land a superstar.

Then you risk Bogo leaving in 2 years via free agency.

so you need a boat load of top prospects before the ship is righted. either that or have some Burke-esque luck via trades.

But I'd totally dump Kane in a heartbeat. Wheeler, Bogo and Pavlovic are the only 3 players I'd keep. The rest are tradeable for younger assets or highish 1st round draft picks.

Team needs talent and a shuffle in chemistry. status quo won't cut it.
it is less likely to land a superstar when he was slated to go in the second round.

agree on the kane thing...i hope they can translate him into something good this summer.

if i were true north, i would sign bogosian to a long term deal and make him the captain.....in my opinion, he is our future star.

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02-15-2012, 11:03 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by peter sullivan View Post
it is less likely to land a superstar when he was slated to go in the second round.

agree on the kane thing...i hope they can translate him into something good this summer.

if i were true north, i would sign bogosian to a long term deal and make him the captain.....in my opinion, he is our future star.
When was he slated to go 2nd round?

By my recollection, most places had him as a mid first rounder.

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02-16-2012, 08:47 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Sweech View Post
When was he slated to go 2nd round?

By my recollection, most places had him as a mid first rounder.
If you were reading stuff published in around March, you probably saw him ranked in the 30s. If you saw stuff published following the U18 tournament, you would have seen him shooting up into the low teens, I also saw some mock drafts with him as high as #10.

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02-16-2012, 01:14 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Canadian North View Post
Dudley accomplished A LOT in his short time with the franchise. He acquired the captain, two of the team's top scorers, drafted Burmistrov, etc. The only player of any actual substance that he gave up was Rich Peverley, who is now a third liner. With Dudley at the helm, we would have made trades and signings with actual significance, and this team would likely be a playoff team, as we'd also have a more competent coach than Noel.

Don't discredit Dudley. He did a fantastic job.
So, okay, here's what I don't understand - what exactly are the "significant" moves that Dudley would've made? Signing Leino? Trading for Ponikorovsky? Please, can any of the posters who claim Dudley would have been busier than a hornet's nest making trades give us examples of what those trades and or moves would have been?

I'm not asking this to discredit Dudley. In fact, I thought the Jets were unwise to let him go. I think the Jets would have been better off keeping Dudley and hiring Chevaldayoff as assistant GM and given him primary responsibility for St. John's first, and then grooming him for Dudley's seat a few years down the road.

And, here's another thing...

Do we know for certainty that Chevy isn't burning up the MTSC phone lines trying to swing deals? Somebody, please, show me proof otherwise, because unless one of the posters in here is actually sitting in Chevy's office all day, every day, we have no idea what's cooking behind the scenes.

Based on past behaviour, Chevaldayoff is a quiet behind-the-scenes manager. He is the polar opposite of Brian Burke and Mike Gillis, which is why he fit well with TNSE.

I'm getting tired of the generalising and unsupported, unresearched opinions that people post as fact. Similar, actually, to all the crap floating around about Evander Kane (who's now made the cut into the website "The Dirty", sheesh, as if it wasn't bad enough already).

It's very simple, you know. Just write it as: "In my opinion so and so hasn't accomplished much." versus "Nothing's happened because so and so did nothing because he's a rookie at his job and he hasn't got a clue about operating a major league franchise."

See the difference? One is stating it as an opinion, the other is stating it as fact.

end of rant.

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02-16-2012, 01:29 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by DarthMonty View Post
So, okay, here's what I don't understand - what exactly are the "significant" moves that Dudley would've made? Signing Leino? Trading for Ponikorovsky? Please, can any of the posters who claim Dudley would have been busier than a hornet's nest making trades give us examples of what those trades and or moves would have been?

I'm not asking this to discredit Dudley. In fact, I thought the Jets were unwise to let him go. I think the Jets would have been better off keeping Dudley and hiring Chevaldayoff as assistant GM and given him primary responsibility for St. John's first, and then grooming him for Dudley's seat a few years down the road.

And, here's another thing...

Do we know for certainty that Chevy isn't burning up the MTSC phone lines trying to swing deals? Somebody, please, show me proof otherwise, because unless one of the posters in here is actually sitting in Chevy's office all day, every day, we have no idea what's cooking behind the scenes.

Based on past behaviour, Chevaldayoff is a quiet behind-the-scenes manager. He is the polar opposite of Brian Burke and Mike Gillis, which is why he fit well with TNSE.

I'm getting tired of the generalising and unsupported, unresearched opinions that people post as fact. Similar, actually, to all the crap floating around about Evander Kane (who's now made the cut into the website "The Dirty", sheesh, as if it wasn't bad enough already).

It's very simple, you know. Just write it as: "In my opinion so and so hasn't accomplished much." versus "Nothing's happened because so and so did nothing because he's a rookie at his job and he hasn't got a clue about operating a major league franchise."

See the difference? One is stating it as an opinion, the other is stating it as fact.

end of rant.
Nice post Darth.

I agree with you. Unfortunately, the people who post repeatedly that Chevy is terrible and should be making numerous changes, or that Dudley would be better and would have corrected all our scoring woes, refuse to back up their statements about all the moves that Chevy should be making by actually letting us know exactly what all of these available trades are.

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02-16-2012, 01:37 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by DarthMonty View Post
So, okay, here's what I don't understand - what exactly are the "significant" moves that Dudley would've made? Signing Leino? Trading for Ponikorovsky? Please, can any of the posters who claim Dudley would have been busier than a hornet's nest making trades give us examples of what those trades and or moves would have been?

I'm not asking this to discredit Dudley. In fact, I thought the Jets were unwise to let him go. I think the Jets would have been better off keeping Dudley and hiring Chevaldayoff as assistant GM and given him primary responsibility for St. John's first, and then grooming him for Dudley's seat a few years down the road.

And, here's another thing...

Do we know for certainty that Chevy isn't burning up the MTSC phone lines trying to swing deals? Somebody, please, show me proof otherwise, because unless one of the posters in here is actually sitting in Chevy's office all day, every day, we have no idea what's cooking behind the scenes.

Based on past behaviour, Chevaldayoff is a quiet behind-the-scenes manager. He is the polar opposite of Brian Burke and Mike Gillis, which is why he fit well with TNSE.

I'm getting tired of the generalising and unsupported, unresearched opinions that people post as fact. Similar, actually, to all the crap floating around about Evander Kane (who's now made the cut into the website "The Dirty", sheesh, as if it wasn't bad enough already).

It's very simple, you know. Just write it as: "In my opinion so and so hasn't accomplished much." versus "Nothing's happened because so and so did nothing because he's a rookie at his job and he hasn't got a clue about operating a major league franchise."

See the difference? One is stating it as an opinion, the other is stating it as fact.

end of rant.
I agree with you with respect to stating opinions as facts. However, I think your scenario hiring Chevy as an assistant GM would have been impossible. Firstly, why would he come to Winnipeg as a lateral move? Secondly, "grooming" him for the job of the current GM; how would that work exactly? Doesn't sound like a particularly healthy working relationship, and if it was done "secretly", why would you want the heir apparent learning from a guy that you are eventually going to fire?

Chevy was obviously highly thought of by True North and he was pretty favourably regarded as a up-and-coming NHL executive. He was probably seen as a good fit and they wanted to get him before somebody else did. As you say, it's far too early to make any sort of evaluation of his work.

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Old
02-16-2012, 04:20 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthMonty View Post
So, okay, here's what I don't understand - what exactly are the "significant" moves that Dudley would've made? Signing Leino? Trading for Ponikorovsky? Please, can any of the posters who claim Dudley would have been busier than a hornet's nest making trades give us examples of what those trades and or moves would have been?

I'm not asking this to discredit Dudley. In fact, I thought the Jets were unwise to let him go. I think the Jets would have been better off keeping Dudley and hiring Chevaldayoff as assistant GM and given him primary responsibility for St. John's first, and then grooming him for Dudley's seat a few years down the road.

...(snip)...
Well, how do you think Kenora-born-and-raised Mike Richards would've looked between Wheeler and Kane? Apparently Philly wanted to **** Chevy when they offered Richards (NKOTB syndrome?) but Dudley might have been able to put together a palatable deal with Holmgren...

It's impossible to say what might have been - but I think, at the very least, Dudley would've been more comfortable making bigger moves to address the team's shortcomings.

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02-16-2012, 04:35 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Gm0ney View Post
Well, how do you think Kenora-born-and-raised Mike Richards would've looked between Wheeler and Kane? Apparently Philly wanted to **** Chevy when they offered Richards (NKOTB syndrome?) but Dudley might have been able to put together a palatable deal with Holmgren...

It's impossible to say what might have been - but I think, at the very least, Dudley would've been more comfortable making bigger moves to address the team's shortcomings.
It depends what his bosses wanted but yes I sense he would have been more aggressive but the million dollar question is which approach is better in the long run?

It's fun to speculate but TNSE got their man and IMHO he will be given 5 years at a minimum to build things his way and most likely he will be around as long as he wants to stay. I think both GM's are fine but Kevin is a perfect cultural fit and will do just dandy over the long haul

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02-16-2012, 04:37 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Gm0ney View Post
Well, how do you think Kenora-born-and-raised Mike Richards would've looked between Wheeler and Kane? Apparently Philly wanted to **** Chevy when they offered Richards (NKOTB syndrome?) but Dudley might have been able to put together a palatable deal with Holmgren...

It's impossible to say what might have been - but I think, at the very least, Dudley would've been more comfortable making bigger moves to address the team's shortcomings.
By the way Richie would have looked great centering that line but who knows what we would have had to have given up?

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02-16-2012, 04:46 PM
  #136
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By the way Richie would have looked great centering that line but who knows what we would have had to have given up?
oh man that would have been amazing.

Richards has been my favorite player in the league since he broke in and damn i would have hit the roof if he ended up here somehow.

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02-16-2012, 05:24 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by DarthMonty View Post
So, okay, here's what I don't understand - what exactly are the "significant" moves that Dudley would've made? Signing Leino? Trading for Ponikorovsky? Please, can any of the posters who claim Dudley would have been busier than a hornet's nest making trades give us examples of what those trades and or moves would have been?
Have a read of this, if you don't know what Rick Dudley did in one year in charge as GM.

http://illegalcurve.com/2011/06/08/a...neral-manager/

Chevy, like Dudley has been in the job for one season, has he been as active as what Dudley did last year? The answer is clearly no.

Now while purely hypothetical, in the offseason I have no doubt that Dudley would of definately enquired about bringing Kris Versteeg to Winnipeg given his past history with the player at Chicago and Versteeg is good friends with Buff.

Also as shown last year when he traded Ben Eager, Brent Sopel and Nic Bergfors, players that aren't working out for the team or are aren't likely to be with the team next season would of been moved on for picks or younger players.
Jets have a couple of players in Fehr and Miettinen that isn't working out, and a player like Oduya who is unlikely to be back next season. I have no doubt that Dudley would move these players on by the trade deadline as they don't fit in the long term future of the team. I would think that by moving players on who don't fit in the teams long term plans shows that he is a very pro-active GM.

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02-16-2012, 05:48 PM
  #138
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Why are we dealing in hypotheticals? No one knows what Chevy has been doing behind the scenes so I don't understand how we can say one person is better than another.

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02-16-2012, 05:49 PM
  #139
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FWIW, Richards wasn't/isn't too keen on the possibility of playing close to home in Winnipeg. He loves playing under the spotlight in a big city like Philly/Los Angeles/New York/etc.

(Source: Richards is currently dating a girl in my sister's med school class)

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02-16-2012, 06:31 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Evan View Post
Have a read of this, if you don't know what Rick Dudley did in one year in charge as GM.

http://illegalcurve.com/2011/06/08/a...neral-manager/

Chevy, like Dudley has been in the job for one season, has he been as active as what Dudley did last year? The answer is clearly no.

Now while purely hypothetical, in the offseason I have no doubt that Dudley would of definately enquired about bringing Kris Versteeg to Winnipeg given his past history with the player at Chicago and Versteeg is good friends with Buff.

Also as shown last year when he traded Ben Eager, Brent Sopel and Nic Bergfors, players that aren't working out for the team or are aren't likely to be with the team next season would of been moved on for picks or younger players.
Jets have a couple of players in Fehr and Miettinen that isn't working out, and a player like Oduya who is unlikely to be back next season. I have no doubt that Dudley would move these players on by the trade deadline as they don't fit in the long term future of the team. I would think that by moving players on who don't fit in the teams long term plans shows that he is a very pro-active GM.
I'm well aware of Rick Dudley's resume - but I asked what trades would he have made THIS YEAR. It's a hypothetical question. We have no idea whether he would have acquired Richards or Versteeg, all we can do is speculate. Perhaps this is why he wasn't retained by TNSE, although having not been a part of the interview process I can only surmise. Perhaps TNSE wasn't comfortable with his vision of how he could improve the Jets. Or perhaps he didn't agree with TNSE's philosophy and the two parties couldn't come to an agreement on how to build the team. Again, I can only guess as I was not present.

What we do know is TNSE was clear from the moment they acquired the Thrashers that this year was to be an evaluation process, that they would build the team through drafting and neccessary trades, and that the Jets would be a mid level salary cap team. TNSE knew the cupboard was bare, and would have to build the foundation of a successful organization from the bottom up. This meant strengthening an ECHL franchise, stocking an AHL franchise and filling out the roster of the parent team. So perhaps TNSE was not sold on Dudley's willingness to wheel and deal the Jets into playoff contention for this year. Ask yourself this. Do you want long term success, or making the playoffs in the eighth place position this year? Do you want the Detroit Red Wings? Or do you want the Toronto Maple Leafs? Do you want a team that consistently contends for and wins the Stanley Cup? Or do you want to be a franchise that is always busy at the trade deadline and is always in the hunt at free agency, yet hasn't won the Cup for forty-five years and hasn't even made the play-offs for the past seven?

All the speculation in the world about what trades or signings Rick Dudley would have made for the Jets is just that, speculation. There is no factual basis for any deals he might have made, only our guesses.

And answer this. How many Stanley Cups has Rick Dudley won? As a player, as a coach or as a general manager? As a coach, he couldn't even win a first round series in the post season. In fact, as a player, coach or general manager in the NHL he has never gone past the second round. His biggest successes were as a coach in the ACHL and IHL, which seemingly hasn't translated well into the NHL.

I'm not insinuating that Dudley's a bad general manager, but clearly he is not the caliber of Ken Holland or David Poile, and I would offer (as my opinion only) that he would not have had nearly the impact on the Jets as so many would have us believe. He's not a miracle worker, and it's doubtful that, had he been retained by the Jets, he would have pulled the trigger on any deals that didn't severely compromise the Jets' future. TNSE would not have countenanced bargaining away present assets for a futile play-off run this season, crippling the team for the future.

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02-16-2012, 06:41 PM
  #141
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Being a GM on here is so easy! I have a good laugh when people say "he would have inquired about this guy" Some guys don't have a clue how it works behind the scenes, and I like how Chevy is looking long term. I will pass judgement on him after a year or two as settling in after a franchise has changed owners and cities is not easy but I think he will be successful.

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02-16-2012, 07:17 PM
  #142
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And answer this. How many Stanley Cups has Rick Dudley won? As a player, as a coach or as a general manager? As a coach, he couldn't even win a first round series in the post season. In fact, as a player, coach or general manager in the NHL he has never gone past the second round. His biggest successes were as a coach in the ACHL and IHL, which seemingly hasn't translated well into the NHL.
^

Rick Dudley had a major influence in both Tampa's and Chicago's cup win.

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02-16-2012, 08:14 PM
  #143
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^

Rick Dudley had a major influence in both Tampa's and Chicago's cup win.
And so did Dale Tallon and Scotty Bowman - maybe the Jets could've hired those two as well. What's your point?

Was Dudley the double secret probation general manager in Tampa or Chicago? Is he some sort of hockey wizard? Because if he's so awesome as a general manager, isn't this edition of the team mostly Dudley's work from last season, and hence the finger of blame can be partially pointed in his direction?

Really, speculating what Dudley might have or might have not done this year is purely guesswork. You could go on and on, but unless you've found a way to use the "Way Back Machine" to change the course of Jets history and find a way to keep Dudley in Winnipeg, it's pointless to keep bringing up what Dudley would've done.

What if the Thrashers had found a way to sign Kovalchuk? Maybe moving Peverly cost the Jets the Stanley Cup this year. Makes me wonder what Emile Francis or Ron Caron would've done with this year's Jets team.

I know I'm beginning to sound pedantic, but this constant commentary of "well if Dudley was still here he would have improved the team through trades etcetera" is beginning to sound a lot like sour grapes.

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02-16-2012, 08:46 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Evan View Post
Have a read of this, if you don't know what Rick Dudley did in one year in charge as GM.

http://illegalcurve.com/2011/06/08/a...neral-manager/

Chevy, like Dudley has been in the job for one season, has he been as active as what Dudley did last year? The answer is clearly no.

Now while purely hypothetical, in the offseason I have no doubt that Dudley would of definately enquired about bringing Kris Versteeg to Winnipeg given his past history with the player at Chicago and Versteeg is good friends with Buff.

Also as shown last year when he traded Ben Eager, Brent Sopel and Nic Bergfors, players that aren't working out for the team or are aren't likely to be with the team next season would of been moved on for picks or younger players.
Jets have a couple of players in Fehr and Miettinen that isn't working out, and a player like Oduya who is unlikely to be back next season. I have no doubt that Dudley would move these players on by the trade deadline as they don't fit in the long term future of the team. I would think that by moving players on who don't fit in the teams long term plans shows that he is a very pro-active GM.
Phil Esposito was also a really active GM.....just saying there is more than one way up the mountain. actiive can work or it can fail miserably......letting a team grow and mature while building through the draft can also work with more modest movement....with all due respect to Rick its not like TNSE replaced Kenny Holland? Just curious when this team was tanking last season after December were people getting on Dudley like this for not making the right moves to get things back on track after such a promising start to the year? we haven't even made it to the trade deadline, let alone the draft or the off season so some folks might want to breath. Chevy's approach is going to be different than Dudley's and feel free to continue to rage against the machine if you like Evan.

,

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02-17-2012, 06:26 AM
  #145
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good trade. I don't know anything about Maxime, but I already gave up on Holzapfel two years ago. He and Machacek where supposed to be a very dynamic 3rd line couple, playing on about the same expectation level when they became part of the Atlanta Franchise. Riley never played good enough for a shot with the Thrashers and never stood out in training camps, other than Spencer. It was obvious that he WON'T have a future in the NHL with the Jets (and Thrashers already before).

And for the "Apple" and "Hol-z-apfl" talk Holzapfel, as you certainly already know, is german. Holz means "wood" and apfel, of course, means "apple". So it actually means: "Woodapple".

Rightly pronounced it is: "Holts-up-fell" for you. Hol just as you would think, "tss" as the "z". The "z" is way harder outspoken than yours in english. Try to say it hard and pronounce the s a little bit longer. "apfel" is like "up-fell". Sounds complicated, but just try to say

"Holds-up-fell" (three simple english words) but the "ds" is more a "tss". Thats it

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02-17-2012, 01:22 PM
  #146
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Dudley got one advantage of dealing with the Chicago franchise after they were selling everything off.

A lot of pieces went everywhere, and this artificially inflated Dudley's trade activity. Look at Dudley at the deadline and read all the interviews, he clearly stated that they only needed to add "a few minor pieces" I have a hard time believing Dudley would have done some miraculous GMing. No big pieces are being moved and other than the weird Philly trades (which I'm happy we weren't a part of because we would not be able to afford it.) I can't see where Dudley would have wiggled himself in to get a deal.

Plus Dudley and Ramsey were a package deal, so even if Dudley > Chevy (which is highly debatable) Noel > Ramsey (AINEC).

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