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Rangers are interested in Nash (McKenzie: Rangers/Kings Strongest Suitors) PART II

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02-17-2012, 02:27 PM
  #51
broadwayblue
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Come on guys...Brandon Dubinsky is not now, nor will he ever be, even close to the same level as Rick Nash. I'm not saying let's trade for Nash, but all this "oh my god we'll be so screwed without brandon dubinsky" is just nuts. If their cap hits were the same anyone with an objective opinion would trade Dubi for Nash in a heartbeat.

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02-17-2012, 02:33 PM
  #52
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You shouldn't even have a Wolski reel in the same post as a Nash reel... No way you can compare those two

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02-17-2012, 02:36 PM
  #53
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Nostalga said:
please dont get rid of Kreider..I have faith he will be truly something special

--
I would rather the Rangers hold onto Kreider and he be a bust than trade for Nash and it not work out.

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02-17-2012, 02:39 PM
  #54
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Dubinsky, McIlrath, Miller, 1st 2nd

This is fair to me.

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02-17-2012, 02:46 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Abooch68 View Post
You shouldn't even have a Wolski reel in the same post as a Nash reel... No way you can compare those two
That's the point. Highlight reels are just the highlights...

They don't give you an accurate sense of what to expect out of a guy

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02-17-2012, 02:46 PM
  #56
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waaaay too much.

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02-17-2012, 02:48 PM
  #57
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that may be fair, but it won't get it done.

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02-17-2012, 02:48 PM
  #58
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I understand that Rick Nash is clearly offensively superior to Dubinsky. I also understand that he's consistently been a 30+ goal scorer. Over the past 5 seasons, he's averaged about 34 goals per year. I guess my question, then, is this:


If the organization believes Dubinsky can rebound and score the 25 or so goals per year that he's clearly capable of, is that 10 goal per season upgrade worth the cost? Is that extra 10 goals per season worth adding a 7.8M contract for the next 6 years?


To me, it seems like a fairly clear "no". That contract is albatross waiting to happen, even though Nash is still relatively young. Plus, you have to wonder about how well he'll perform in NY, since, as we've seen, not everyone thrives in New York. There's also team chemistry issues to take into account, plus the extra cost (beyond Dubinsky, hypothetically) of acquiring Nash (Kreider? Miller? 1st? Who knows?).


Taking everything into account, it seems like the answer to the Nash question should "No". But then again, I'm not paid to make professional hockey decisions.

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02-17-2012, 02:50 PM
  #59
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IF the Nash trade is made, Dubi is in it. You can lock that up. It was obvious when Torts started experimenting with Step-Cally on the PK.

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02-17-2012, 02:50 PM
  #60
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I'm trying to give SOMETHING but keep Kreider out...

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02-17-2012, 02:56 PM
  #61
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People really think that if Dubinsky is the only roster player moved and Kreider isn't in the deal that we still shouldn't do it? Nuts.

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02-17-2012, 02:56 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
Dubinsky, McIlrath, Miller, 1st 2nd

This is fair to me.
Wolski too. Salary dumping is important.

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Old
02-17-2012, 02:58 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Barbara Underhill View Post
People really think that if Dubinsky is the only roster player moved and Kreider isn't in the deal that we still shouldn't do it? Nuts.


I don't think it's nuts at all. Taking on Nash's 7.8M hit for 6 years alone should give anyone a lot of hesitation, IMO. Who knows what the next CBA will look like, but that contract could potentially hamstring the team for a long time.

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02-17-2012, 03:06 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantes19 View Post
I don't think it's nuts at all. Taking on Nash's 7.8M hit for 6 years alone should give anyone a lot of hesitation, IMO. Who knows what the next CBA will look like, but that contract could potentially hamstring the team for a long time.
Doesn't bother me.

Dubinsky + Wolski = Nash's cap hit.

Instead of 15m free after this season we have around 12m. Still plenty for what we have to do. It's easier to handle than dumping half of our free cap space into another top UFA (Parise) as some want.

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02-17-2012, 03:21 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Barbara Underhill View Post
Doesn't bother me.

Dubinsky + Wolski = Nash's cap hit.

Instead of 15m free after this season we have around 12m. Still plenty for what we have to do. It's easier to handle than dumping half of our free cap space into another top UFA (Parise) as some want.

I understand your thought process, and I know some people will disagree with me, but the 6 year term bothers me more than the $7.8 salary. Especially with a bunch of RFA/UFA players coming up in the next few years. Plus, if one believes that Dubinsky and Nash will be around their usual production levels next year, I still think it's worth asking whether the price is worth a 10-12 goal per season upgrade.


I know it's not necessarily that simple, but to me it seems like a big risk + potential cap albatross for a guy who is about 10-12 goals better per season but defensively inferior to Dubinsky. But, if you don't believe that Dubinsky will get back to that 24 goal mark, then I suppose that changes the equation a bit.

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02-17-2012, 03:47 PM
  #66
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Did Nash just get traded or something? HF isn't loading and keeps timing out randomly.

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Old
02-17-2012, 03:59 PM
  #67
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Did Nash just get traded or something? HF isn't loading and keeps timing out randomly.
Yeah, it seems like there are a few joksters on twitter saying this in the last 10 minutes or so. But they are not sources or anyone who'd know just people. One said he was traded to the Ducks for Jesse Hall, Guy Germaine, Les Averman and rights to holdout Dean Portman, haha

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02-17-2012, 04:04 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantes19 View Post
I understand that Rick Nash is clearly offensively superior to Dubinsky. I also understand that he's consistently been a 30+ goal scorer. Over the past 5 seasons, he's averaged about 34 goals per year. I guess my question, then, is this:


If the organization believes Dubinsky can rebound and score the 25 or so goals per year that he's clearly capable of, is that 10 goal per season upgrade worth the cost? Is that extra 10 goals per season worth adding a 7.8M contract for the next 6 years?


To me, it seems like a fairly clear "no". That contract is albatross waiting to happen, even though Nash is still relatively young. Plus, you have to wonder about how well he'll perform in NY, since, as we've seen, not everyone thrives in New York. There's also team chemistry issues to take into account, plus the extra cost (beyond Dubinsky, hypothetically) of acquiring Nash (Kreider? Miller? 1st? Who knows?).


Taking everything into account, it seems like the answer to the Nash question should "No". But then again, I'm not paid to make professional hockey decisions.
While I agree with you that Nash's contract is terrible, and I also agree that asset wise the trade may be too expensive. I also thing, it may be better off to do nothing big now or ever or wait for a cheaper price on a guy like Ryan or maybe getting Parise just for dollars. But, in regards to Nash, I think you may be missing something in the difference he provides in the lineup rather than a Dubinsky. Firstly, with Nash, yes he has averaged around the 35 goal mark in his career and it is a legitimate expectation for him to continue that if he were to come to NY. Also, the Rangers can at least expect Dubinsky to get back to that 20-25 goal level, max out at probably 30 on a really good year. Also, Nash has shown that he can consistently score 35 as we have mentioned, while doing so on a terrible CBJ team with virtually very little as a supporting cast. What may be being missed here is the fact that Nash has the potential and the skill and ability to score 45-50 every year. He has the finishing touch and the ability to do that. Dubinsky will max out with a ceiling of 30 goals on a great year while Nash, who knows what his ceiling is? Also, you are underestimating the luxury of having a Nash in the lineup; teams will have to gameplan on stopping him and it will create more chances, goals and stats for the rest of the team. On the roster, if it is simply Nash for Dubinsky, there is a no contest that Nash makes this team much, much better. Nash will cover and exceed whatever Dubinsky can bring to the table, he has proven to be a consistent 35 goal scorer on a terrible team with no help. It simply is not just a 10 goal upgrade as you have to account for the players success around him as well. Nash undoubtedly makes the team much better than Dubinsky would.

The problem is when you configure adding to the package the guys like Kreider, etc. If it gets too costly, you have to be careful.

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02-17-2012, 04:07 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantes19 View Post
I understand that Rick Nash is clearly offensively superior to Dubinsky. I also understand that he's consistently been a 30+ goal scorer. Over the past 5 seasons, he's averaged about 34 goals per year. I guess my question, then, is this:


If the organization believes Dubinsky can rebound and score the 25 or so goals per year that he's clearly capable of, is that 10 goal per season upgrade worth the cost? Is that extra 10 goals per season worth adding a 7.8M contract for the next 6 years?


To me, it seems like a fairly clear "no". That contract is albatross waiting to happen, even though Nash is still relatively young. Plus, you have to wonder about how well he'll perform in NY, since, as we've seen, not everyone thrives in New York. There's also team chemistry issues to take into account, plus the extra cost (beyond Dubinsky, hypothetically) of acquiring Nash (Kreider? Miller? 1st? Who knows?).


Taking everything into account, it seems like the answer to the Nash question should "No". But then again, I'm not paid to make professional hockey decisions.

A voice of reason. Even if it was only the cash, say no to Nash. To include half the team in the trade, too? Ridiculous.

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Old
02-17-2012, 04:08 PM
  #70
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HFBoards is melting... I thought Nash was traded.

Phew.

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Old
02-17-2012, 04:24 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Cmox View Post
Yeah, it seems like there are a few joksters on twitter saying this in the last 10 minutes or so. But they are not sources or anyone who'd know just people. One said he was traded to the Ducks for Jesse Hall, Guy Germaine, Les Averman and rights to holdout Dean Portman, haha
as long as i'm not involved in that trade, i'm totally fine with it

and yeah the boards are still a little wonky... hope it calms down...


Last edited by FultonReed: 02-17-2012 at 04:35 PM.
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Old
02-17-2012, 04:28 PM
  #72
Dantes19
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Also, Nash has shown that he can consistently score 35 as we have mentioned, while doing so on a terrible CBJ team with virtually very little as a supporting cast. What may be being missed here is the fact that Nash has the potential and the skill and ability to score 45-50 every year. He has the finishing touch and the ability to do that. Dubinsky will max out with a ceiling of 30 goals on a great year while Nash, who knows what his ceiling is? Also, you are underestimating the luxury of having a Nash in the lineup; teams will have to gameplan on stopping him and it will create more chances, goals and stats for the rest of the team. On the roster, if it is simply Nash for Dubinsky, there is a no contest that Nash makes this team much, much better. Nash will cover and exceed whatever Dubinsky can bring to the table, he has proven to be a consistent 35 goal scorer on a terrible team with no help. It simply is not just a 10 goal upgrade as you have to account for the players success around him as well. Nash undoubtedly makes the team much better than Dubinsky would.

I understand what you're saying, and I know Nash could potentially score more than his 35 goal average, but I think you also have to factor in that he could also score less than his average. Who knows how he'll perform in NYC, a much different circumstance than Columbus. Probably better, maybe worse. Nash is clearly the better offensive player, and you're right about him having the potential to help the players around him. But he's also clearly defensively inferior to Dubinsky, and $7.8 for 6 years is a pretty serious long term investment.


I see your point about their offensive production, but the fact that there's so many more dimensions to consider (defense, chemistry, trade cost, salary cap ramifications) makes me extremely hesitant about a potential Nash deal.

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Old
02-17-2012, 04:43 PM
  #73
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Did Nash just get traded or something? HF isn't loading and keeps timing out randomly.
More like the Habs made a trade...

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02-17-2012, 04:57 PM
  #74
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I was checking out the CBJ board and Columbus newspapers and apparently CBJ are looking for defensemen (or at least the fans and columnists think they are) The Columbus fans/media want players like McDonagh and/or Erixon to be included in a deal for Nash.

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02-17-2012, 05:04 PM
  #75
Dantes19
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I was checking out the CBJ board and Columbus newspapers and apparently CBJ are looking for defensemen (or at least the fans and columnists think they are) The Columbus fans/media want players like McDonagh and/or Erixon to be included in a deal for Nash.

McDonagh is an easy no, and I wouldn't expect Erixon to be traded considering the circumstances of how he became a Ranger. McIlrath might be an option, but who knows if he's what Columbus is looking for. I would guess not.

I wonder if this will become a case where Columbus' trade demands are just too high and neither side is willing to budge enough.

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