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Marchand will not be sanctioned for his hit

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Old
02-16-2012, 05:52 PM
  #76
Drive425
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I think the Habs have a hard time with knowing when someone has crossed the line. They talk discipline and focus on staying out of the box but they've got to know when to strike back.

Does anyone recall the reaction after Subban hit Marchand last year? Their whole bench went berserk. Habs need to look out for each other, even when it's a clean hit. That's how Boston gets the reputation, teams know if they mess with any Bruin they will face the consequences. We need a little of that in our game.

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02-16-2012, 05:56 PM
  #77
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I think it was clean hit with dirty timing. I'm hoping Emelin pushes back and team stands up for each other with big hits. That's hockey.

Edit: autocorrect typo


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02-16-2012, 05:58 PM
  #78
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I think it was clean hit with dirty timing. I'm hoping Merlin pushes back and team stands up for each other with big hits. That's hockey.
huh...

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02-16-2012, 06:07 PM
  #79
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huh...
Hitting someone during the play is clean, out of the play or borderline out of the play can be dirty. It was cheap but not illegal.

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02-16-2012, 06:10 PM
  #80
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Hitting someone during the play is clean, out of the play or borderline out of the play can be dirty. It was cheap but not illegal.
think you're confusing illegal and dirty.

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02-16-2012, 06:26 PM
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think you're confusing illegal and dirty.
Nah I'm good

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02-16-2012, 07:27 PM
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This is worse than the Salo hit.

Emelin had the puck. No reason to go at him the way he did.

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02-16-2012, 08:06 PM
  #83
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Kerry Frasier didn't like the hit either: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=388032

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02-16-2012, 08:41 PM
  #84
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The only problem I have with it is that it sends the wrong message to that clown. Even though there is no penalty, the situation is questionable. No time on the clock. Imagine for one second if any player had deigned to make a legal hit on a bruin with no time on the clock.... the angst...

Should have been a small fine.

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02-16-2012, 09:15 PM
  #85
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Bad idea. Then thornton, mcquaid, lucic etc. could have gone after Subban. You don't send fighters after non-fighters. Especially not when the other team has about 5x as many fighters as you do.
you mean one of them might break then neck of one of our skill guys by viciously running him into the stancheon?

or maybe use their own elbow pads as a hammer and beat one of our smaller guys to a bloody pulp?

or run our goalie repeadetely?


i mean seriously, short of going full blown "slap shot" on us, how could the B's be any more violent or aggressive on any of our players?


besides all that, you have to take a stand somewhere (or else remain the bullied victim for ever).

last night I watched (live) Chris Neil indiscriminately taking pot shots at panthers players left and right... he didn't limit himself to guys "in his weight class", he just plays a certain way, period.

someone takes a liberty? he's going after them wether skill player or not. We need more of this.

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02-16-2012, 10:42 PM
  #86
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Part of me (the one that is constantly filled with bloodlust and vengence) agrees with you, but I've got to tell you I'm not sure that will work either. Having tough guys that respond when the going gets dirty around didn't save Savard. It didn't save Crosby. It didn't save Horton. And I'm not sure it'll save Emelin or Subban or {insert Canadien here}. And here's why....

Someone else above pointed it out, although I doubt he'll draw the same conclusions I will from it. The fact of the matter is that officiating in the NHL has done nothing but get worse - more inconsistent and more dangerous (for the players) - year after year. This is not solely on the head of the NHL officials - there are other reasons including the recent retirement of a number of the more experienced officials, an increase in the speed of the game, and increase in the number of people looking to 'sell' infractions and some baffling rule changes that leave the door wide open for abuse - but some of it falls on their shoulders as well. You have games like last night where the officials clearly were calling everything and then suddenly put away their whistles - as if by mutual consent they "didn't want to affect the outcome of the game." That excuse is nothing more than copious quantities of male bovine excrement in my opinion, but that's a rant for another day.

Back to the real topic - why building a rough and ready team won't work. Well it's the inconsistent rules. With one ref, if you jump the little punk that just low bridged your big hitting defneseman they'll say "payback" and carry on as if they were normal. With another you'll wind up with five and a game for instigating. So what do you do? Jump the guy and force your team to play down possibly two roster players for the rest of the night (to say nothing of the long penalty kill they'll have to manage). Complain to the ref? Some refs will listen, some will dismiss you outright, and some will be insulted by your attempts to tell them how to do their job. Come back later and clobber the guy? Some refs will let that slide (see Thronton last night). Others will call you on it.

It extends to all aspects of the game. What is hooking? Tripping? Interference? Goaltender interference? Roughing? Ref's have to make judgement calls night in and night out. And each one of them has different judgement. So you wind up with a new set of rules every game you play the season. That's not fair to anyone.

The NHL needs to get its act together. The rampant head injuries this season is stark proof of this. The reason why the guys are getting concussions is because there's no clear defined rules on hitting. It calls for the referee's judgement. It calls for Shanny's judgement. That's not a good solution. A good solution would be to revamp the rule book. Toss away most of the judgement calls a ref is asked to make during a game and replace it with clearly defined criteria. High sticking has a simple definition. Too many men has a simple definition. Over the glass delay of game has a simple definition. Interference, goaltender interference, roughing and tripping do not. Which of those two groups is miscalled more often?

Once that's done then we can tell our players what they can and can't do. Until then it's a guessing game with potentially dire consequences for the team.
Very well thought-out rebuttal. however, I beg to disagree because of the same point you bring up.

Because the officiating is brutally inconsistent at best, you would now have two sets of teams. One who lives on THAT side of the edge, one who lives on THIS side.

So we would not dare retaliate or build up any toughness because, you know, we might get an instigator. Or even a 5-minute penalty. In case someone (like Emelin could easily have been last night) gets seriously injured, well, you know, we wouldn't want to put the team in a hole for two minutes.

I exaggerate with the extreme, but you get where I am going.

On the other side of the edge, a team like them, that plays dirty, indiscriminately so, with serious intent to injure (Chara; Campbell; Thornton; Marchand; Lucic; Hornton; McQuaid), because they gamble that the officials will not punish them. Surprise, more often than not they get away with it.

So now you have a real situation - in fact the present-day situation. The officials and the league are not offering any sort of protection to us (or any other team). Why then not make a brief show of strength? Otherwise it is akin to putting all your trust into a broken, biased, corrupt and exploitative system, because you believe in the principle.

The mid 70's saw a team like them rise to the top, playing a thuggish brand of hockey interspersed with real talent. We took that to a new level: we built a team that was supremely talented and would take you to the woodshed if you dared want to instigate. I am not for an all-thug team to search and destroy; but there is a way to bring a tougher, more collective mentality to the team while maintaining a very high degree of skill and art.

I mean for crying out loud, we let every chump in the league snowplow Price after the whistle and do nothing. We play like the automatons JM wanted us to be, without emotion or interest, functional to each greatest capacity, replaceable parts of the machine. Of course guys like Marchand try to injure: it is a technically advantageous play, there is no risk of retaliation from us, little from the league, and you are taking a guy out. But if he ran Emelin and got crosschecked in the face by Diaz immediately after, would he do it again next time?

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02-17-2012, 02:20 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
This is what Gauthier does not understand.

This is what the fans of Gauthier do not understand.

The NHL is inconsistent. Marchand's hit was technically illegal. It was a gutless play. Not responding to the Marchand hit by the Canadiens was equally as gutless.

Its a damned shame to watch things like that happen. The Canadiens cannot allow **** like this to happen and need to take care of business on the ice and tell the NHL and Shanahan to go **** themselves.

White cannot fight every player on every team. He needs help.

Until then, get used to seeing Marchand trying to injure Emelin and then in the 3rd, beat down on one of our best players.....Cole.....without anyone doing anything about it.

Pathetic. And gutless on Gauthier's part for allowing this to happen.
All throughout the game Emelin had a big target on his back and they almost got him too. I wish I was in front of the puke Gauthier so I could slap him in the face.

Worst is seeing our players apologizing to opponants when the same happens. aka Plek when he went to "help" Chara and when PK did the same not too long ago.

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02-17-2012, 07:19 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
This is what Gauthier does not understand.

This is what the fans of Gauthier do not understand.

The NHL is inconsistent. Marchand's hit was technically illegal. It was a gutless play. Not responding to the Marchand hit by the Canadiens was equally as gutless.

Its a damned shame to watch things like that happen. The Canadiens cannot allow **** like this to happen and need to take care of business on the ice and tell the NHL and Shanahan to go **** themselves.

White cannot fight every player on every team. He needs help.

Until then, get used to seeing Marchand trying to injure Emelin and then in the 3rd, beat down on one of our best players.....Cole.....without anyone doing anything about it.

Pathetic. And gutless on Gauthier's part for allowing this to happen.
And the answer is, once again, that there are no teams in the league that actually follow the philosophy you suggest. None.

The Bruins don't do it. No-one fought any of the players who ran into Thomas. No-one fought Gill when he injured Peverley.

And of course, you are once again implying that if someone had taken an instigator going after Marchand he would no longer try to hit anyone for the rest of the game. Which has repeatedly be proven to be false and once again, when called on it, you'll say that 'no-one is claiming that toughness prevents cheapshots'. Well, you just did claim it.

Bottom line is that your prediction before the game was that the Habs would be intimidated and 'pushed around' by the Bruins. Instead you were proven completely wrong (not for the first time in a Habs/Bruins game) by the players playing a highly physical game and out hitting in terms of quantity and quality of hits one of the more physical teams in the league. Bruins GDT was full of teeth gnashing about their team being physically outmatched. So you gloss over your credibility gap by looking for any instances in the game that you can magnify into a 'lack of toughness', even though such instances can be found for any team in any game if you look hard enough and have enough of a biased agenda.

For the record and on topic: No sanction for Marchand is probably the right call although it was a somewhat weird hit and Marchand is the only player in the NHL who seems to make that kind of hit. It's not a clip though so the referees called the wrong penalty.

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Old
02-17-2012, 07:38 AM
  #89
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And the answer is, once again, that there are no teams in the league that actually follow the philosophy you suggest. None.

The Bruins don't do it. No-one fought any of the players who ran into Thomas. No-one fought Gill when he injured Peverley.

And of course, you are once again implying that if someone had taken an instigator going after Marchand he would no longer try to hit anyone for the rest of the game. Which has repeatedly be proven to be false and once again, when called on it, you'll say that 'no-one is claiming that toughness prevents cheapshots'. Well, you just did claim it.

Bottom line is that your prediction before the game was that the Habs would be intimidated and 'pushed around' by the Bruins. Instead you were proven completely wrong (not for the first time in a Habs/Bruins game) by the players playing a highly physical game and out hitting in terms of quantity and quality of hits one of the more physical teams in the league. Bruins GDT was full of teeth gnashing about their team being physically outmatched. So you gloss over your credibility gap by looking for any instances in the game that you can magnify into a 'lack of toughness', even though such instances can be found for any team in any game if you look hard enough and have enough of a biased agenda.

For the record and on topic: No sanction for Marchand is probably the right call although it was a somewhat weird hit and Marchand is the only player in the NHL who seems to make that kind of hit. It's not a clip though so the referees called the wrong penalty.
there is a subtle difference between "hitting" and the "toughness" being talked about here.

perhaps you disagree that anything more than "quantitiy/quality" of LEGAL bodychecks is not important, and that's a whole conversation in itself...

but it is precisely in those "instances" in the game, where one competitor takes aggressive physical liberties on the other, with no consequence, that our glaring lack of "toughness" is revealed.

There is a mental toughness to controlling emotions and not retaliating carelessly... i don't think there is much arguing that point.

but at the same time, there is both a physical and mental toll that gets added up every time a competitor in a physical encounter plays the role of aggressor and the recipient can do little more than turn his back and/or look to the referee helplessly.

the nucks/bruins series, and the specific marchand/sedin instance, highlights this clearly.


by being able to play that way without the habs being able to respond, at all, plants a negative seed in the minds of our players, and that impact can potentially turn disastrous down the road, when a more "fragile" player hesitates that extra second or bails on a play just a fraction sooner, so as to avoid the inevitable physical/cheap punishment he now expects... "hearing the footsteps".

as long as we continue to be a team that can't stand up for itself adequately (and no, the scoreboard is NOT the only indicator... you can win a battle and still lose the war), we will continue to run the risk of some of our players playing "scared" in the most crucial situations.


because it's such a subtle influence, and it involves more subconsious mental issues than necessarily direct concious ones, I really do think that 1-2 players of the right mould could make all the difference... just having someone around who, no matter what, comes to your defense, can give a "softer" guy the support and "courage" he needs to ignore the "big bad bruins" (or other intiidating teams/players), and free their mind to focus solely on making the right plays at the right time.

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02-17-2012, 08:07 AM
  #90
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All throughout the game Emelin had a big target on his back and they almost got him too. I wish I was in front of the puke Gauthier so I could slap him in the face.

Worst is seeing our players apologizing to opponants when the same happens. aka Plek when he went to "help" Chara and when PK did the same not too long ago.
So you don't believe that 'sportsmanship' has any place at all in the NHL?

That not only is it irrelevant, but a flaw? You poor sob.

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02-17-2012, 08:25 AM
  #91
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but at the same time, there is both a physical and mental toll that gets added up every time a competitor in a physical encounter plays the role of aggressor and the recipient can do little more than turn his back and/or look to the referee helplessly.
You mean like when Emelin pust a big hit on Thornton and Thornton can only throw himself to the floor looking helplessly to the referee?

Quote:
by being able to play that way without the habs being able to respond, at all, plants a negative seed in the minds of our players, and that impact can potentially turn disastrous down the road, when a more "fragile" player hesitates that extra second or bails on a play just a fraction sooner, so as to avoid the inevitable physical/cheap punishment he now expects... "hearing the footsteps".
Who are these 'fragile' players? I don't want them on my team, lets get rid of them. Problem solved. Emelin is not one of them, imo.

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as long as we continue to be a team that can't stand up for itself adequately (and no, the scoreboard is NOT the only indicator... you can win a battle and still lose the war), we will continue to run the risk of some of our players playing "scared" in the most crucial situations.
Continue to? You have yet to demonstrate that it's actually happening. We lost the game against Boston, but who was scared? Who was intimidated? No-one that I could see. Once again, if there are players who are scared to face another NHL team, don't want those players on my team.

And just to re-iterate, before we retreat into the same old soundbites, I have been an advocate of signing bigger players and 'tougher' players. In the summer, I wanted Montreal to go after Brad Winchester, who was available for a long time. And was interested in Shane O'Brien as a depth defenseman. I have also argued against signing goons and players who do not justify their place on the team for their play first and foremost.

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Old
02-17-2012, 09:11 AM
  #92
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Not about the hit (I know it'll come to no good)
I've watched Gallagher play a few times out here on the wet coast and I know in about two years I'm going to be screaming at the t.v. for someone to take his bloody head off. That's meant as a compliment. You will love him. Your talented special kind of pest is coming, although you might have to get a big body to ride shotgun with him. I guess Subban kind of plays that way but it's much harder for a d-man as any errant pass or getting burnt or missed hit could find the puck in the back of your net and all that chirping gets thrown back at you.
Good luck for the rest of the year.
Really hope your guys are able to get on a sustained run and make the playoffs. It just feels wrong when both Boston and Montreal aren't both in the playoffs.

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02-17-2012, 02:28 PM
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Not about the hit (I know it'll come to no good)
I've watched Gallagher play a few times out here on the wet coast and I know in about two years I'm going to be screaming at the t.v. for someone to take his bloody head off. That's meant as a compliment. You will love him. Your talented special kind of pest is coming, although you might have to get a big body to ride shotgun with him. I guess Subban kind of plays that way but it's much harder for a d-man as any errant pass or getting burnt or missed hit could find the puck in the back of your net and all that chirping gets thrown back at you.
Good luck for the rest of the year.
Really hope your guys are able to get on a sustained run and make the playoffs. It just feels wrong when both Boston and Montreal aren't both in the playoffs.
That's good to know it will be funny if or when Gallagher beats up Marchand and then chirps about it after

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02-17-2012, 03:43 PM
  #94
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And the answer is, once again, that there are no teams in the league that actually follow the philosophy you suggest. None.

The Bruins don't do it. No-one fought any of the players who ran into Thomas. No-one fought Gill when he injured Peverley.

And of course, you are once again implying that if someone had taken an instigator going after Marchand he would no longer try to hit anyone for the rest of the game. Which has repeatedly be proven to be false and once again, when called on it, you'll say that 'no-one is claiming that toughness prevents cheapshots'. Well, you just did claim it.

Bottom line is that your prediction before the game was that the Habs would be intimidated and 'pushed around' by the Bruins. Instead you were proven completely wrong (not for the first time in a Habs/Bruins game) by the players playing a highly physical game and out hitting in terms of quantity and quality of hits one of the more physical teams in the league. Bruins GDT was full of teeth gnashing about their team being physically outmatched. So you gloss over your credibility gap by looking for any instances in the game that you can magnify into a 'lack of toughness', even though such instances can be found for any team in any game if you look hard enough and have enough of a biased agenda.

For the record and on topic: No sanction for Marchand is probably the right call although it was a somewhat weird hit and Marchand is the only player in the NHL who seems to make that kind of hit. It's not a clip though so the referees called the wrong penalty.
You really need to watch hockey played by teams other than Montreal.

Last night, L A Kings vs Phoenix. Dustin Brown of the Kings hit Rostislav Klesla and knocked him out of the game. It WAS A CLEAN HIT.

This is what happened the next time Dustin Brown took a shift on the ice.........




If I cared to bother trying to convince pacifists like you, I could find numerous videos of players standing up for teammates.......legal hits or not.

What were you saying about credibility gap?

And for what its worth (absolutely nothing), Phoenix won the game against the Kings.

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02-17-2012, 06:18 PM
  #95
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You really need to watch hockey played by teams other than Montreal.

Last night, L A Kings vs Phoenix. Dustin Brown of the Kings hit Rostislav Klesla and knocked him out of the game. It WAS A CLEAN HIT.

This is what happened the next time Dustin Brown took a shift on the ice.........
Yeah that would have been an amazing counter argument if my claim had been 'other teams never ever fight after a hit on one of their players'. :

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02-17-2012, 06:23 PM
  #96
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So you don't believe that 'sportsmanship' has any place at all in the NHL?

That not only is it irrelevant, but a flaw? You poor sob.
Hockey especially in the NHL is war. This is how I want the players I like to play and that is how I played, you give everything you have and the opposition is the enemy. You don't see any Boston player doing this. Hell to see Carey Price having pitty on Thomas when he fought him last year when they fought was sickening. You never saw any Bruins player do the same thing when they pummeled the Habs to a bloody pulp!

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02-17-2012, 06:53 PM
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Yeah that would have been an amazing counter argument if my claim had been 'other teams never ever fight after a hit on one of their players'. :
OK. So why did you type this?

And the answer is, once again, that there are no teams in the league that actually follow the philosophy you suggest. None.

Is there some "hidden meaning" behind that statement? Is it in code?

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02-17-2012, 09:05 PM
  #98
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OK. So why did you type this?

And the answer is, once again, that there are no teams in the league that actually follow the philosophy you suggest. None.

Is there some "hidden meaning" behind that statement? Is it in code?
No it's really very simple. You think that there should be a 'response' every time a player is hit hard and that it is somekind of disgrace if an opponent touches Carey Price without someone fighting him. No team in the league lives up to this demand.

Most laughable occasion that I remember off the top of my head was an early season game against Toronto when Tyler Bozak was standing still in front of Price and got cross checked from behind into the goaltender, you wanted someone to beat up Bozak to 'teach him a lesson'.

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02-17-2012, 10:10 PM
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No it's really very simple. You think that there should be a 'response' every time a player is hit hard and that it is somekind of disgrace if an opponent touches Carey Price without someone fighting him. No team in the league lives up to this demand.

Most laughable occasion that I remember off the top of my head was an early season game against Toronto when Tyler Bozak was standing still in front of Price and got cross checked from behind into the goaltender, you wanted someone to beat up Bozak to 'teach him a lesson'.
I stopped reading when you said every.

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02-17-2012, 11:02 PM
  #100
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No it's really very simple. You think that there should be a 'response' every time a player is hit hard and that it is somekind of disgrace if an opponent touches Carey Price without someone fighting him. No team in the league lives up to this demand.

Most laughable occasion that I
remember off the top of my head was an early season game against Toronto when Tyler Bozak was standing still in front of Price and got cross checked from behind into the goaltender, you wanted
someone to beat up Bozak to 'teach him a lesson'.
I heard Marchand was close to signing with the LA Clippers.

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