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Rangers are interested in Nash (McKenzie: Rangers/Kings Strongest Suitors) PART II

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02-17-2012, 09:03 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Dubinsky plays slightly more on the PK than Prust does. He also is still a top-6 forward in terms of point production on this team, although based on P/G, Hagelin has overtaken him. Still, it makes him a 3rd liner, whereas Prust is a 4th liner.
You say that Prust only has 11 less points than Dubinsky. I say Dubinsky almost has twice as many points as Prust.
Now, none of this is to excuse Dubinsky from his lack of production or claim that he's earning his money. He's not. It's just to say that, on the ice, Dubinsky is still more valuable than Prust.

Everything you said is true. Plus, Dubinsky has shown that he can be a 20+ goal scorer. Prust really hasn't come close to that. Clearly, Prust is valuable, but to say that he's more valuable than Dubinsky seems like a bit of a stretch.

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02-17-2012, 09:04 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
Large sample size, eh?

3 points in 4 games is hardly impressive for a player of Nash's supposed caliber, anyway.
It's ridiculous to say he hasn't played any meaningful minutes in his career.

Take a look at the Columbus roster throughout the years. Its laughable.

Manny Malholtra was his center for the one playoff series. Enough said.

People can dislike the trade idea for cap reasons, Kreider reasons, whatever, but to resort to hyperbole is a waste.

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02-17-2012, 09:06 PM
  #153
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Dubinsky's true value may lie in the playoffs (if he's still around by that time, apparently there's a 20% he will be ). He has 15 points in 22 playoff games playing on mediocre to bad offensive teams. He scored a clutch GWG in the final minutes of our only playoff victory last season, so we know he can handle the pressure. Edwards and Brickley were praising him the other night for his ability to absorb a hit and not give up the puck which is a useful trait come playoff time when the physicality ramps up. I think he is better suited for playoff hockey than some of our other forwards.

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02-17-2012, 09:06 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Hankenstein View Post
People can dislike the trade idea for cap reasons, Kreider reasons, whatever, but to resort to hyperbole is a waste.


True, I'd be less worried about a lack of big game experience than that $7.8M for 6 contract he carries.

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02-17-2012, 09:07 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
dubinsky, at his cap hit, vs prust at his cap hit, and the fact that prust defends his team on a night in and night out basis by fighting anyone to protect his guys, to me makes prust more valuable.

overall, i think prust probably brings more winning aspects to his game right now than Dubi does. dubi has looked lost out there...a lot.
Your expectations of Dubinsky are higher, and justifiably. He's a far superior hockey player. However, an underachieving Dubinsky is still a better hockey player than a baseline Prust (and by the way, Prust hasn't been very good this season for most of this season either, although he'd been hurt. He's picked it up a bit lately).

I can't really speak to the two guy's relative value salary-wise, because I've always thrown all thoughts of salary out the window when I think of a guy's performance on the ice. All that matters to me is where the guy fits on the roster when they play the games. I switch on the thoughts about salary when we're talking about trades or off-season roster building.

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02-17-2012, 09:16 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Leetch66 View Post
I'm on the fence regarding trades but one has to keep an open mind and how would everyone feel if we won 2 cups because Nash led the playoffs in scoring for the Rangers for the next two playoff years ! We have a legit shot at two cups with a 40 goal scorer added to the roster . How many Cups do you guys think Kreider will win for us ? This could be a career year for a lot of Ranger guys...that happens ! Ottawa had some great teams back just a few years ago and won NOTHING . Give that some thought ! I would love to keep everybody...but I don't think we can win it this year with the current team as it is unless the PP takes off like there is no tomorrow !
Why stop at 2, why not 5? Seriously, how many players does this team have from the 07-08 team that made the second round?

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02-17-2012, 09:17 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Hankenstein View Post
It's ridiculous to say he hasn't played any meaningful minutes in his career.

Take a look at the Columbus roster throughout the years. Its laughable.

Manny Malholtra was his center for the one playoff series. Enough said.

People can dislike the trade idea for cap reasons, Kreider reasons, whatever, but to resort to hyperbole is a waste.
I agree.

That said, Nash has so many indentured excuses. He's a good player, yeah. Very good, perhaps. But, clearly, he's no catalyst. He's had one legitimate season of being that catalyst, and it was the year they made the playoffs. Mason was a big part of that team as well.

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02-17-2012, 09:17 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Your expectations of Dubinsky are higher, and justifiably. He's a far superior hockey player. However, an underachieving Dubinsky is still a better hockey player than a baseline Prust (and by the way, Prust hasn't been very good this season for most of this season either, although he'd been hurt. He's picked it up a bit lately).

I can't really speak to the two guy's relative value salary-wise, because I've always thrown all thoughts of salary out the window when I think of a guy's performance on the ice. All that matters to me is where the guy fits on the roster when they play the games. I switch on the thoughts about salary when we're talking about trades or off-season roster building.
fair enough.

i think just the fact that we can have a rational disagreement about this should underlie just how disappointing dubi has been this season...

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02-17-2012, 09:19 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
I agree.

That said, Nash has so many indentured excuses. He's a good player, yeah. Very good, perhaps. But, clearly, he's no catalyst. He's had one legitimate season of being that catalyst, and it was the year they made the playoffs. Mason was a big part of that team as well.
how do you catalyze a team filled with garbage?

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02-17-2012, 09:21 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Dantes19 View Post
True, I'd be less worried about a lack of big game experience than that $7.8M for 6 contract he carries.
as would i.

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02-17-2012, 09:22 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
how do you catalyze a team filled with garbage?
See Columbus 2008-2009.

That's how. Nash has done it once. Yet he's hailed as though he's some type of superstar.

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02-17-2012, 09:26 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
fair enough.

i think just the fact that we can have a rational disagreement about this should underlie just how disappointing dubi has been this season...
Could be worse. We could be frustrated that Brooks Laich is having a very similar season to Dubinsky. The difference is that, generally speaking, our top-6 has been better and our D is far superior, so Dubinsky's underachieving at $4.2m has less of an impact than Laich's underachieving at $4.5m.

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02-17-2012, 09:29 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
See Columbus 2008-2009.

That's how. Nash has done it once. Yet he's hailed as though he's some type of superstar.


I don't think it's as easy as you seem to be implying. There's only so much one player can do, and the 2008-2009 season doesn't necessarily mean that he should have automatically been able to propel them to the playoffs every year. That assumes that each year presents identical circumstances/dynamics. Plus, although Nash is very good, I don't think he's that kind of great player that thoroughly galvanizes a team (I agree with you that he's no superstar).


If 'galvanizing' were that easy, then Messier should've been able to get at least one of those pre-lockout teams into the playoffs

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02-17-2012, 09:31 PM
  #164
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08-09, Columbus' 1 and only playoff team...here were his teammates

1 Rick Nash CBJ R 78 40 39 79 +11 52 6 5 5 2 263 15.2 21:09 28.7 27.8
2 Kristian Huselius CBJ L 74 21 35 56 +1 44 5 0 2 0 212 9.9 19:31 24.2 28.9
3 Jason Williams ATL, CBJ C 80 19 28 47 -4 24 7 0 4 1 153 12.4 15:51 18.7 46.0
4 RJ Umberger CBJ L 82 26 20 46 -10 53 9 0 2 1 234 11.1 18:46 26.6 48.0
5 Antoine Vermette OTT, CBJ C 79 16 25 41 -7 50 3 1 1 1 174 9.2 18:21 23.6 57.7
6 Jakub Voracek CBJ R 80 9 29 38 +11 44 0 0 1 0 101 8.9 12:39 18.3 0.0
7 Manny Malhotra CBJ C 77 11 24 35 +9 28 0 0 3 0 116 9.5 18:00 26.5 58.0
8 Fedor Tyutin CBJ D 82 9 25 34 +1 81 5 1 0 0 167 5.4 23:30 29.9 100.0
9 Derick Brassard CBJ C 31 10 15 25 +12 17 3 0 1 0 59 16.9 14:25 19.8 48.5
10 Freddy Modin CBJ L 50 9 16 25 +2 28 2 0 0 0 113 8.0 16:52 23.2 40.2




That team scored a total of 220 goals, he accounted for 36% of his entire teams total offense.

what name there really scares you with their play? what name jumps out at you like, man...that guy can really hit hard, or man, that guy is such a great skater, or puck mover, or whatever.

hes played with such garabage his entire career its not even funny. Kovalchuk was the same way. hes playing with some talent now, and winning, and putting up points, and leading his team in points...

Talent is talent. you need to be able to recognize it.

honestly its the guys who score a ton of points playing with elite players that scare me.

you put up 50 goals playing with Thornton, im less likely to consider you a guy i want to trade for than a guy who puts up 40 goals playing with Manny Malhotra.

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02-17-2012, 09:34 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Dantes19 View Post
I don't think it's as easy as you seem to be implying. There's only so much one player can do, and the 2008-2009 season doesn't necessarily mean that he should have automatically been able to propel them to the playoffs every year. That assumes that each year presents identical circumstances/dynamics. Plus, although Nash is very good, I don't think he's that kind of great player that thoroughly galvanizes a team (I agree with you that he's no superstar).


If 'galvanizing' were that easy, then Messier should've been able to get at least one of those pre-lockout teams into the playoffs
agreed

Brian Leetch had TONS of teams not make the playoffs during his tenure. Maybe he's not a catalyst too? hell, Leetch had WAY more talent than Nash had to work with.

Making the playoffs isnt the be all end all when judging a player.

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02-17-2012, 09:38 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Dantes19 View Post
I don't think it's as easy as you seem to be implying. There's only so much one player can do, and the 2008-2009 season doesn't necessarily mean that he should have automatically been able to propel them to the playoffs every year. That assumes that each year presents identical circumstances/dynamics. Plus, although Nash is very good, I don't think he's that kind of great player that thoroughly galvanizes a team (I agree with you that he's no superstar).


If 'galvanizing' were that easy, then Messier should've been able to get at least one of those pre-lockout teams into the playoffs
Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm saying. It certainly isn't "easy", but people act as if Nash is some superstar carrying Columbus through their troubles. He's not. He's along for the ride. Maybe he plays a stronger game on a better team. But it's been 8 years. Bad team or not, I think that's long enough to where a player's talent level and production level is determined.

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02-17-2012, 09:46 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm saying. It certainly isn't "easy", but people act as if Nash is some superstar carrying Columbus through their troubles. He's not. He's along for the ride. Maybe he plays a stronger game on a better team. But it's been 8 years. Bad team or not, I think that's long enough to where a player's talent level and production level is determined.
Would AO be able to get the Caps to the playoffs w/o Backstrom and Green?

This year...its looking doubtful. therefore AO != catalyst?

Truth of the matter is, it takes a lot more than 1 player to make a great team. Nash would be arguably worth more as a member of this team than as a member of the jackets. here, he'd be 1 big gun on a team with several to choose from. There, he's the lone gunmen (with Carter, whose been injured a big chunk of this season)

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02-17-2012, 09:52 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm saying. It certainly isn't "easy", but people act as if Nash is some superstar carrying Columbus through their troubles. He's not. He's along for the ride.
I don't know if I would say "along for the ride." These are his percentages of involvement in his team's offense.

03-04: 32%
05-06: 25%
06-07: 29%
07-08: 36%
08-09: 36%
09-10: 31%
10-11: 31%
11-12: 30%

In contrast, Corey Perry won the Hart Trophy while being involved in his team's offense to the tune of 42%, Daniel Sedin won the Art Ross at the tune of 41%. On the other hand, many consider Gaborik to be carrying our offense this year and he is involved in 32% of all of our goals (although 2 years ago, he really did carry our offense with 43%). So, in one sense, Nash has never had that above and beyond season that Hart Trophy winners get. On the other hand, in the last 5 seasons, he's consistently above the 30% threshold. I would characterize Nash as being a superstar carrying his team as well as the team around him will enable him to.

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02-17-2012, 09:57 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm saying. It certainly isn't "easy", but people act as if Nash is some superstar carrying Columbus through their troubles. He's not. He's along for the ride. Maybe he plays a stronger game on a better team. But it's been 8 years. Bad team or not, I think that's long enough to where a player's talent level and production level is determined.
Im not a Nash fan or a fan of trading for him at all, but this nonsense.

This isn't the NBA. One forward can't carry a bunch of below average players to the playoffs by himself.

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02-17-2012, 09:59 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
I don't know if I would say "along for the ride." These are his percentages of involvement in his team's offense.

03-04: 32%
05-06: 25%
06-07: 29%
07-08: 36%
08-09: 36%
09-10: 31%
10-11: 31%
11-12: 30%

In contrast, Corey Perry won the Hart Trophy while being involved in his team's offense to the tune of 42%, Daniel Sedin won the Art Ross at the tune of 41%. On the other hand, many consider Gaborik to be carrying our offense this year and he is involved in 32% of all of our goals (although 2 years ago, he really did carry our offense with 43%). So, in one sense, Nash has never had that above and beyond season that Hart Trophy winners get. On the other hand, in the last 5 seasons, he's consistently above the 30% threshold. I would characterize Nash as being a superstar carrying his team as well as the team around him will enable him to.
very well said.

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02-17-2012, 10:03 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
Would AO be able to get the Caps to the playoffs w/o Backstrom and Green?

This year...its looking doubtful. therefore AO != catalyst?

Truth of the matter is, it takes a lot more than 1 player to make a great team. Nash would be arguably worth more as a member of this team than as a member of the jackets. here, he'd be 1 big gun on a team with several to choose from. There, he's the lone gunmen (with Carter, whose been injured a big chunk of this season)
Quote:
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Im not a Nash fan or a fan of trading for him at all, but this nonsense.

This isn't the NBA. One forward can't carry a bunch of below average players to the playoffs by himself.
There are obviously very few players that can do this.

My point isn't that. My point is that he's being treated as one, and valued as one. He shouldn't be.

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02-17-2012, 10:13 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
There are obviously very few players that can do this.

My point isn't that. My point is that he's being treated as one, and valued as one. He shouldn't be.


wait, im not sure i get this...are you saying that a guy like AO isnt because his team may miss the playoffs?

i couldnt disagree with you more.

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02-17-2012, 10:23 PM
  #173
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wait, im not sure i get this...are you saying that a guy like AO isnt because his team may miss the playoffs?

i couldnt disagree with you more.
Ovechkin is much, much, much closer to a legitimate franchise player than Nash is (Ovechkin actually IS a legitimate franchise player in caliber). Multiple 50+ goal seasons, 100+ point seasons. Ovechkin's career low in points is higher than Nash's career high.

What I'm saying is this: Nash isn't a franchise player like an Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin, Weber, Suter, Datsyuk, etc, yet I see him valued and hailed as though he is. He's not. That's my point.

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02-17-2012, 10:26 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
Ovechkin is much, much, much closer to a legitimate franchise player than Nash is (Ovechkin actually IS a legitimate franchise player in caliber). Multiple 50+ goal seasons, 100+ point seasons. Ovechkin's career low in points is higher than Nash's career high.

What I'm saying is this: Nash isn't a franchise player like an Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin, Weber, Suter, Datsyuk, etc, yet I see him valued and hailed as though he is. He's not. That's my point.
Right Zenith, he's not in there stratosphere

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02-17-2012, 10:32 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
Ovechkin is much, much, much closer to a legitimate franchise player than Nash is (Ovechkin actually IS a legitimate franchise player in caliber). Multiple 50+ goal seasons, 100+ point seasons. Ovechkin's career low in points is higher than Nash's career high.

What I'm saying is this: Nash isn't a franchise player like an Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin, Weber, Suter, Datsyuk, etc, yet I see him valued and hailed as though he is. He's not. That's my point.
*shrugs* agree to disagree.

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