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#57|Feb. 16, 2012|Sabres at Flyers|7:00 p.m. ET

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Old
02-17-2012, 10:54 AM
  #776
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BRIERE: skating in non-contact jersey FRIDAY.

A separate injury thread starting with Briere and continuing with updates from later today has been posted.

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02-17-2012, 11:46 AM
  #777
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You completely ignored my explanation. Again. Did you read my whole post? Why not address it?
i didn't ignore your explanation, i don't agree with your acceptance of the poor Defense when Bryz plays.

i read the whole thing & addressed the poor D on goal #1

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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
There are 3 other players on the ice besides the defensemen. I believe Giroux looked pretty out of position on that one. Giroux isn't all that great defensively, so that's what you get.

Here's the thing: One shouldn't be too shocked when that happens with the way our team plays defense. Our personnel simply aren't as good at it as they were one or two years ago. So, that sort of play is expected to a degree.

If we still had Mike Richards and he was playing as poorly defensively as Giroux has this year, then I'd be pretty damned upset with him; He's paid and expected to be much better than that.

When Giroux (or Briere) is on the ice, with his defensive ability, it shouldn't be surprising that a lot of cross crease passes are allowed. It sucks, but it's reality.

It isn't acceptable, but the expectations in each situation are different. One situation is less acceptable than the other.
OK, here is everything you said in defense of the team leaving Pominville wide open, and you unhappily 'accept' it ....


how 'great defensively' does an NHL player need to be to figure out that you need to make sure you don't leave an NHL player ALL ALONE at the bottom of the circle for a cross ice one timer ??? is this something they learn after 10 years in the league??

'that's what you get' ???? wow ..... i can't believe someone who holds Bryz to such a high standard that he gets criticized when he gets a shutout, simply says 'that's what you get' to such an atrocious lapse in coverage, especially after the way they left Bob hung out over the weekend and got skewered for it ... they suddenly 'forgot' that you can't leave a guy WIDE OPEN like that over the last 2 years??


when Bob plays:
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If the defense isn't very different the result will be the same
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It would be nice to still have Nodl to be defensively responsible on the 4th line.
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If this D doesn't tighten up, could be in the first round.
when Bryz plays: 'that's what you get' 'It sucks, but it's reality' 'the expectations are different'

-----------------------
No. In my view, it is NEVER acceptable for a guy to be THAT wide open in an NHL game. or my stree ice or roller hockey games.

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02-17-2012, 11:58 AM
  #778
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Haha, you took quotes from a different game. Well done, that makes zero sense, because this is a different game with a different performance.

If the defense as a whole had played as badly in this game as they were in that game, I would have been saying the same things. You'll find that in games Bryz played and the defense was bad, I HAVE said those things. However, last night they only had one real lapse. Giroux isn't stellar defensively, most of our forwards aren't. You can expect a lapse from them. Bryzgalov is supposed to be stellar as a goaltender, we shouldn't have to expect him to let in a soft goal every game.

And now, once again, I am finished debating with you for now because it's a thoroughly fruitless activity. Your blind devotion to Bryz makes any realistic discussion about him completely impossible. Here we have you furiously trying to deflect attention from his one bad goal, which was totally his fault, onto what the defense was doing on a different goal. That isn't the issue: The issue is that Bryz even continues to let those stinkers in, and you're trying to cloud that.

You're also going back to your bizarre habit of implying I'm part of some kind of pro-Bob, anti-Bryz cabal, a view which is divorced from reality and absurd. I just want our expensive franchise goaltender to earn his cap hit and actually look like a franchise goaltender...not a backup. I want him to succeed, in other words.

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02-17-2012, 12:01 PM
  #779
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Gotta agree that Pominville goal is on Giroux.

Thought Bryz should of have that Vanek goal, but at least he helped us protect a lead yesterday and responded well after givving up 2 early goals

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02-17-2012, 12:08 PM
  #780
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serge11 View Post
Gotta agree that Pominville goal is on Giroux.

Thought Bryz should of have that Vanek goal, but at least he helped us protect a lead yesterday and responded well after givving up 2 early goals
That goal is definitely on Giroux. What BP74 doesn't understand is that seeing that sort of defensive lapse from Giroux is pretty much in line with his defensive ability. It's not acceptable, but it shouldn't be unexpected. Bryz's second goal is something we've seen all season and is supposed to be something he stops; given his cap hit and and ability he should be expected to make that save pretty much every time.

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02-17-2012, 12:11 PM
  #781
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Great use of the word Cabal...

Sorry I'm a bit of a wordsmith...

Anyway...back to Bryz

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02-17-2012, 12:14 PM
  #782
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It's funny that the two goals against pretty much encapsulated the primary weaknesses of this team:
  • Clueless own-zone defense leaves a forward wide open for an easy goal
  • Terribly weak goal against Bryzgalov

I'm hoping that the new addition will reduce point 1, and that Bryzgalov will eventually minimize the #2s (so to speak).

In true, Negadelphia fashion, what stuck with me as the slight dark streak in an otherwise excellent game was that each of the two points above could be matched with near-misses that may have led to a different game outcome. Both occurred with the Flyers holding the ever-precarious 2-goal lead.

First point
1:36 left in the 2nd: shot from the point goes low toward the near-side post on Bryz's blocker side. He kicks out his leg and, inexplicably, manages to knock the puck across his body into the low slot. It looks like Gustaffson blocked an open-net shot by the Sabre player charging into the puck, preserving the 2-goal margin. I was shaking my head at such poor rebound control on a clear-view routine save.

Second point
19:28 of the 3rd: the Flyers win the faceoff to Bryz's right, and Bryz taps the puck behind the net. Carle (!) is first to the puck, with a Sabre right behind him. The Flyers are in good defensive position with Bourdon closing to support Carle and Giroux covering at the right post. It's a 3-against-3 fight for the puck. All of a sudden, the puck goes right to Vanek who is completely alone just inside the right faceoff circle. Fortunately, he rings it off the post.

If the Sabres capitalize on either one, it's anyone's game. Of course, we can play the "what if" game all day, but the magnification of these two glaring weaknesses is mind-numbingly frustrating.

That's all. Let's get back to enjoying a blowout win, while hoping that Briere is not seriously hurt.

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02-17-2012, 12:18 PM
  #783
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
That goal is definitely on Giroux. What BP74 doesn't understand is that seeing that sort of defensive lapse from Giroux is pretty much in line with his defensive ability. It's not acceptable, but it shouldn't be unexpected. Bryz's second goal is something we've seen all season and is supposed to be something he stops; given his cap hit and and ability he should be expected to make that save pretty much every time.
We can argue, too, that the defensive mess-ups are partly due to their overeagerness to transition from defense to offense, which has the happy benefit (when it works) of this team's goal-scoring strength. That won't stop my migraines after games like the one against the Rangers.

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02-17-2012, 12:19 PM
  #784
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
you took quotes from a different game. Well done, that makes zero sense, because this is a different game with a different performance.
makes complete sense.

laugh it off all you want; different game, SAME poor defensive coverage and breakdowns. we ALL saw it vs the Rangers and ALL said [including you, as quoted above] how bad the D was playing.

but Bob was in net, so we can focus on the poor D, and make no 'comparisons' of the D to Bob & the bad goal he let in vs NYR, and 'expectations'

now that Bryz was in net, that same exact poor defensive coverage results in you saying 'that's what you get' 'It sucks, but it's reality' 'the expectations are different' .... 'compared to Bryz .......'

it is clear you are bitter that they didn't sign Vokuon. as a result, you'll even accept bad D coverage, because it is 'more acceptable' than a bad Bryz goal after 9 days off ....


it is NEVER acceptable or understandable for a guy to be THAT wide open in an NHL game


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02-17-2012, 12:38 PM
  #785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post

You're also going back to your bizarre habit of implying I'm part of some kind of pro-Bob, anti-Bryz cabal, a view which is divorced from reality and absurd. I just want our expensive franchise goaltender to earn his cap hit and actually look like a franchise goaltender...not a backup. I want him to succeed, in other words.

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makes complete sense.

laugh it off all you want; different game, SAME poor defensive coverage and breakdowns. we ALL saw it vs the Rangers and ALL said [including you, as quoted above] how bad the D was playing.

but Bob was in net, so we can focus on the poor D, and make no 'comparisons' of the D to Bob & the bad goal he let in vs NYR, and 'expectations'

now that Bryz was in net, that same exact poor defensive coverage results in you saying 'that's what you get' 'It sucks, but it's reality' 'the expectations are different' .... 'compared to Bryz .......'

it is clear you are bitter that they didn't sign Vokuon. as a result, you'll even accept bad D coverage, because it is 'more acceptable' than a bad Bryz goal after 9 days off ....


it is NEVER acceptable or understandable for a guy to be THAT wide open in an NHL game


The only thing that is clear is that you have no idea why I wanted Vokoun. I wanted Vokoun not because he's my favorite goalie or anything; in fact, I didn't think he would be as skilled as Bryz. I wanted him because his contract and cap hit would be cheaper; yet he was still good enough that the drop from Bryz's skill level wouldn't be terrible. I had/have zero emotional attachment towards Vokoun, so there is no bitterness.

I'm also not bitter in the slightest towards Bryz because he was signed. I am bitter at Snider and Holmgren for giving him that demented contract, but that's not really Bryz's fault. I would absolutely love to see Bryz succeed and be excellent here, because that would be great for the team.

But no, please, do go on believing that everyone who dares criticize your Bryzgalov for his very underwhelming and disappointing season is part of a grand anti-Bryz conspiracy who irrationally hates him and wishes to see him go down in flames. That makes a lot more sense, sports fans routinely hope for their star players to be terrible, right?

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02-17-2012, 12:45 PM
  #786
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post

But no, please, do go on believing that everyone who dares criticize your Bryzgalov for his very underwhelming and disappointing season is part of a grand anti-Bryz conspiracy who irrationally hates him and wishes to see him go down in flames. That makes a lot more sense, sports fans routinely hope for their star players to be terrible, right?

Dude, its just easier to say your Anti-Bryz..

who really cares if he understands the truth or not at this point..

just like ill always be a Leighton fan until i see him get a stretch of 20-40 games in a season at least). nothing/nobody will change my mind...


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02-17-2012, 12:46 PM
  #787
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just like ill always be a Leighton fan until i see him get a stretch of 20-40 games in a season at least). nothing/nobody will change my mind...


Hmm. Shifting guns 180 degrees. Preparing to fire.

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02-17-2012, 01:11 PM
  #788
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
That goal is definitely on Giroux. What BP74 doesn't understand is that seeing that sort of defensive lapse from Giroux is pretty much in line with his defensive ability. It's not acceptable, but it shouldn't be unexpected. Bryz's second goal is something we've seen all season and is supposed to be something he stops; given his cap hit and and ability he should be expected to make that save pretty much every time.
I don't give Giroux all the blame.

I guess we have to assume they were in man coverage. If they weren't, then it's Kimmo's fault for staying with Roy (IIRC) all the way across the slot and then back out toward the right point and back. That essentially created a void on the left side.

Hartnell at LW did not stay with Myers when he pinched. He looked over his left shoulder and his man wasn't there, he was breaking down the boards. Then he motioned with his stick for Coburn to take Myers.

Coburn started to come over to cover Myers, but stopped when he realized that wasn't HIS man, but Hartnell's, then we went out too late.

Through all this, Giroux was supposed to take Pominville, but if not, at least make sure the cross ice pass didn't get through, in the absence of Kimmo in front rotating in behind Coburn. The puck got through.

There are three people to blame: Hartnell - if he checks Myers, there is no pass.
Coburn, if he knows which man to take, there is less time to pass.
Giroux, it was his man.
And possibly Timonen, if it was supposed to be a zone and he played man.

The only two who are completely unblameable are the RW (Talbot at the time?) and Bryz, who had to watch the shooter and the cross ice pass was too far out to intercept.

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02-17-2012, 01:20 PM
  #789
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Quote:
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I don't give Giroux all the blame.

I guess we have to assume they were in man coverage. If they weren't, then it's Kimmo's fault for staying with Roy (IIRC) all the way across the slot and then back out toward the right point and back. That essentially created a void on the left side.

Hartnell at LW did not stay with Myers when he pinched. He looked over his left shoulder and his man wasn't there, he was breaking down the boards. Then he motioned with his stick for Coburn to take Myers.

Coburn started to come over to cover Myers, but stopped when he realized that wasn't HIS man, but Hartnell's, then we went out too late.

Through all this, Giroux was supposed to take Pominville, but if not, at least make sure the cross ice pass didn't get through, in the absence of Kimmo in front rotating in behind Coburn. The puck got through.

There are three people to blame: Hartnell - if he checks Myers, there is no pass.
Coburn, if he knows which man to take, there is less time to pass.
Giroux, it was his man.
And possibly Timonen, if it was supposed to be a zone and he played man.

The only two who are completely unblameable are the RW (Talbot at the time?) and Bryz, who had to watch the shooter and the cross ice pass was too far out to intercept.
It shouldn't be that difficult to play a system. In these defensive lapses people have to realize it has been our forwards messing up more then our d's.

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02-17-2012, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
The only thing that is clear is that you have no idea why I wanted Vokoun.

i don't care why you wanted him. all i know is that when Bob gave up 1 bad goals vs NYR you posted 3 times about the poor defensive coverage, and never said that the poor defense was 'more acceptable' than Bob's bad goal against .... no mention of the bad goal at all.

they had the same poor team defensive coverage vs BUF, and suddenly that coverage is 'understandable' 'unhappily accepted' all because Bryz gives up a bad goal.

you simply can't say what we ALL know to be true: that poor coverage is not acceptable / understandable. period.
regardless of who is in net, or if they give up a bad goal, have a bigger contract, higher cap hit, are a 2nd year player or if YOU were in net.

you downplayed that poor defensive coverage because Bryz made an equally bad play later on ... and, well, we 'expect more' from him .....

I expect the team to not leave guys wide open & Bryz to get that shot & Bob to get goal #2 vs DET ... and i won't downplay poor defensive coverage so i can highlight when a goalie makes a separate mistake

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02-17-2012, 06:00 PM
  #791
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Unbelievable.... really and truly is.

You claim to be a pretty capable goalie, if that's the case and you can't see the difference between bryz and bob(even though I think he's been good lately), then you are a poster child for Dr. Orr's "thinker and prover" theory.

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02-17-2012, 07:26 PM
  #792
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Maybe there was a separate issue. But at least two others noticed a possible hand-related injury.
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Why would he need help down the tunnel with a hand injury though?
From the Daily News:

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For what it's worth, a source says Tom Sestito's injury was not sustained in the fight last night but a season-long nagging injury.

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02-17-2012, 08:18 PM
  #793
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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
i don't care why you wanted him. all i know is that when Bob gave up 1 bad goals vs NYR you posted 3 times about the poor defensive coverage, and never said that the poor defense was 'more acceptable' than Bob's bad goal against .... no mention of the bad goal at all.

they had the same poor team defensive coverage vs BUF, and suddenly that coverage is 'understandable' 'unhappily accepted' all because Bryz gives up a bad goal.

you simply can't say what we ALL know to be true: that poor coverage is not acceptable / understandable. period.
regardless of who is in net, or if they give up a bad goal, have a bigger contract, higher cap hit, are a 2nd year player or if YOU were in net.

you downplayed that poor defensive coverage because Bryz made an equally bad play later on ... and, well, we 'expect more' from him .....

I expect the team to not leave guys wide open & Bryz to get that shot & Bob to get goal #2 vs DET ... and i won't downplay poor defensive coverage so i can highlight when a goalie makes a separate mistake
I don't think you understand how expectations work. It's also abundantly clear that you have zero idea what I'm actually saying. I've explained it three separate ways. You're either ignoring it (blinded by your rage that I would dare criticize Bryzgalov) or you need to read harder.

Also...I didn't bring up the defense. YOU did. YOU brought the defense and the first goal into it, in an attempt to draw attention away from the crap second goal. You somehow believe that there is a 1:1 correlation between Giroux's expected defensive ability and Bryz's expected goaltending ability. I also didn't downplay the defensive gaff. I GAVE FULL ****ING BLAME TO GIROUX. I merely dared to point out that with Giroux's defensive abilities, that sort of thing shouldn't be surprising...whereas in Bryz's case, with his supposed goaltending skill, that kind of goal IS surprising...especially since it's very far from a rarity. Defense is not Giroux's strength. Goaltending is Bryz's strength. It's more like if Giroux were on pace for 40 points this season; IE failing at his strength. That would be as surprising and alarming as the constant stream of bad goals allowed by Bryz.

You also continue to go on about the Anti-Bryz, Pro-Bob conspiracy. Still. For reasons that can not, and likely never will be, understood by most human beings. I'm done with this thread too. I'll let you continue your hunt for whichever UFO you think is giving the lizard people at the Bilderberg Meetings their marching orders to organize us into a movement designed to unite the world under one government through Bryzgalov hate. Have fun responding to one or two sentences from this without actually addressing the core of what I'm saying, I'm not going to get sucked into this black hole to nowhere again.

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02-17-2012, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I don't think you understand how expectations work. It's also abundantly clear that you have zero idea what I'm actually saying. I've explained it three separate ways. You're either ignoring it (blinded by your rage that I would dare criticize Bryzgalov) or you need to read harder.

Also...I didn't bring up the defense. YOU did. YOU brought the defense and the first goal into it, in an attempt to draw attention away from the crap second goal. You somehow believe that there is a 1:1 correlation between Giroux's expected defensive ability and Bryz's expected goaltending ability. I also didn't downplay the defensive gaff. I GAVE FULL ****ING BLAME TO GIROUX. I merely dared to point out that with Giroux's defensive abilities, that sort of thing shouldn't be surprising...whereas in Bryz's case, with his supposed goaltending skill, that kind of goal IS surprising...especially since it's very far from a rarity. Defense is not Giroux's strength. Goaltending is Bryz's strength. It's more like if Giroux were on pace for 40 points this season; IE failing at his strength.

You also continue to go on about the Anti-Bryz, Pro-Bob conspiracy. Still. For reasons that can not, and likely never will be, understood by most human beings. I'm done with this thread too. I'll let you continue your hunt for whichever UFO you think is giving the lizard people at the Bilderberg Meetings their marching orders to organize us into a movement designed to unite the world under one government through Bryzgalov hate. Have fun responding to one or two sentences from this without actually addressing the core of what I'm saying, I'm not going to get sucked into this black hole to nowhere again.
I've said it a million times in a million different places... People can declare us 'winners' of the Richards and Carter deals all they want, but as of right NOW it sure would be nice to have a center that can play defense and 1st/2nd line minutes.

As of right now, the only centers we have that are reliable defensively are Talbot and Couturier. Couts still makes rookie mistakes on occasion, and neither guy can/should be playing near 20 minutes a game.

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02-17-2012, 08:28 PM
  #795
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Unbelievable.... really and truly is.

You claim to be a pretty capable goalie, if that's the case and you can't see the difference between bryz and bob
i can see that Beef focuses on the poor D coverage when Bob plays & focuses on Bryz instead, when Bryz plays. has zero to do with their on ice ability

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02-17-2012, 08:34 PM
  #796
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You will go to the ends of the earth to find a non-existent link here, won't you? This is insane.

Edit: That just had to be pointed out. Now, I'm done. Eating a brick is more productive than discussing Bryz with you, since you spend your time trying to argue nonexistent bias instead of actually discussing Bryz's failings...which you generally dismiss out of hand anyways. "Yeah that was a bad goal...BUT THE DEFENSE WAS BAD ON A DIFFERENT GOAL!"

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02-17-2012, 08:47 PM
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Also...I didn't bring up the defense. YOU did. YOU brought the defense and the first goal into it, in an attempt to draw attention away from the crap second goal.
you're paranoid. i brought it up on goal #1 because it was an AWFUL goal, a man ALL ALONE AGAIN.
I said both were bad goals, neither of them 'more acceptable'

YOU were the one who claims for goal #1: 'that's what you get' 'It sucks, but it's reality' 'the expectations are different' .... 'compared to Bryz .......'

wrong. wrong. wrong & wrong.

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I also didn't downplay the defensive gaff.
sure looks like it: see above &;
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With our defensive personnel that sort of thing is simply going to happen. I can live with it (unhappily) so long as they aren't doing it all damn night
========================================
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I merely dared to point out that with Giroux's defensive abilities, that sort of thing shouldn't be surprising...
you said 'defensive personnel' .... and now are trying to zero in on G, but either way, there is nothing you can say to convince me that an NHL player doesn't know you can't leave a guy wide open at the bottom of the circle, especially after last week when I'm certain Lavy ripped them a new one .. wasn't it G himself who said they all need to do a better job & get mad & play better defensively?

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You also continue to go on about the Anti-Bryz, Pro-Bob conspiracy. Still.
and i will. as long as people like you focus on the poor D coverage when Bob plays
when Bob plays:
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
If the defense isn't very different the result will be the same
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It would be nice to still have Nodl to be defensively responsible on the 4th line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
If this D doesn't tighten up, could be in the first round.
& then explain away that very same poor coverage when Bryz plays .... you didn't want Bryz here, so the more you can make it look like he is bad, the more 'right' you will look in the end.
it's obvious. you couldn't even resist yesterday: para-phrasing: "that poor defense is 'expected' from G, but compared to Bryz's bad goal, it's more acceptable"

they were equally bad, but you couldn't resist at trying to make Bryz's look worse. if anything, his 9 days off were a built in excuse ... and even I didn't use it on that goal


Last edited by Bernie Parent 1974: 02-17-2012 at 08:56 PM.
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02-17-2012, 08:55 PM
  #798
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dont do it BEEF...

dont do it man...

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Old
02-17-2012, 09:14 PM
  #799
sobrien
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
you're paranoid. i brought it up on goal #1 because it was an AWFUL goal, a man ALL ALONE AGAIN.
I said both were bad goals, neither of them 'more acceptable'

YOU were the one who claims for goal #1: 'that's what you get' 'It sucks, but it's reality' 'the expectations are different' .... 'compared to Bryz .......'

wrong. wrong. wrong & wrong.



sure looks like it: see above &;

========================================


you said 'defensive personnel' .... and now are trying to zero in on G, but either way, there is nothing you can say to convince me that an NHL player doesn't know you can't leave a guy wide open at the bottom of the circle, especially after last week when I'm certain Lavy ripped them a new one .. wasn't it G himself who said they all need to do a better job & get mad & play better defensively?


and i will. as long as people like you focus on the poor D coverage when Bob plays
when Bob plays:




& then explain away that very same poor coverage when Bryz plays .... you didn't want Bryz here, so the more you can make it look like he is bad, the more 'right' you will look in the end.
it's obvious. you couldn't even resist yesterday: para-phrasing: "that poor defense is 'expected' from G, but compared to Bryz's bad goal, it's more acceptable"

they were equally bad, but you couldn't resist at trying to make Bryz's look worse. if anything, his 9 days off were a built in excuse ... and even I didn't use it on that goal
Because Bryz is being paid to cover some of the defenses mishaps. Bob is being paid as a back-up on an entry level deal.

Personally I blame the defense for most of the seasons mishaps, and give both goalies leashes for missing saves they should make...because they're human, and no goalie is perfect. Unfortunately the defense has been awful this season, and neither goalie has been able steal games this season, which is one is being paid to do now.

I'm one of Bryz's few supporters, but the fact of the matter is that he's getting paid VERY well, and hasn't been living up to it, for the most part...Though he has been much better of late, he does have a shorter leash for everyone because of that contract. And deservedly so.

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02-18-2012, 11:18 AM
  #800
Bernie Parent 1974
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Because Bryz is being paid to cover some of the defenses mishaps. Bob is being paid as a back-up on an entry level deal.
good god

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