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stick flex discussion

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Old
02-13-2012, 10:15 PM
  #76
goonx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
Saying that a rule of thumb is that a whippier stick is better than a stiffer sticks is, as I said, just plain wrong. There is no such rule of thumb and the statement has no basis in fact. There is only what is right for a given player, and it is far more complicated than a simple generalization like that or even simply basing it on height and/or weight.

Also, anecdotal data such as I'm xxx and I use an xx flex really isn't useful, because we have no idea whether that player uses it well. The only FACTS we know is that it takes more pressure to flex a stiffer stick and only a player that can effectively apply such pressure can benefit from a stiffer stick. Conversely a player that routinely generates too much pressure for a whippy stick won't be able to benefit from the whippy stick and in fact will see negative results. There are horses for courses and courses for horses.
lolololololololol

I hope you've read some of those studies that were posted just before your post. I also hope you understand that if a player have a stick that's too stiff to flex properly, they'll never develop the properly loading technique for a hard shot.

Kovalev's shooting video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9ydbx_tkZQ

Most guys that play hockey at the rec level use sticks that are much stiffer than they really need. They buy senior sticks at 100 flex because that's the most common model that's sold at LHS, when really they should be getting 70-90 flex sticks. Some of these guys cut down 100 flex sticks as well so they may be well over 110 flex for a 5"8 player.

So yes, the rule of thumb is when in doubt, go with a whippier stick so a player can develop a proper loading technique. Once they've mastered how to load a stick and can generate power off the stick as shown by kovalev, you can move to a higher stiffness to get even more power. For all young players, developing players and intermediate players, it's better to get a stick that's whippier rather than a stick that's too stiff. Ofcourse, the best would be to get the perfect flex on the first try but as others already said, sometimes you have to choose the lesser of two evils.

Ofcourse, like many have said and I've said, it depends on the playing style whether a stiffer or softer stick is right for the player. (i.e. wristers vs. slappers) That however, is when they've developed the proper technique and also found the "sweet spot" after experienced play. I think Jarick's height/weight guideline is a good place to start for most amateur players. Once they understand the theory and had their own share of gameplay, they will automatically find a stiffness they like.

I think kovalev knows what he's talking about and I would put my bet on him than you.


Last edited by goonx: 02-13-2012 at 10:30 PM.
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Old
02-13-2012, 10:34 PM
  #77
AIREAYE
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Stop using NHL players as justification for your points guys, seriously, their technique and strength are most likely much higher than any of us. Same with their needs and the access to full customization options.

You guys ever heard of a G3 flex profile? The stick stiffens and flexes at different points than a traditional low/mid kick stick and will feel different. That's just one example of a really common pro option.

Essentially, this thread has boiled down to 2 schools of thought but ultimately the same end result to find the right flex for a particular person. The first school concerns height and weight to start off, while the other advocates whippier sticks. Both have their reasons but neither are wrong, they're both simply starting guidelines.

Although I'm firmly in the weight/strength camp, I see the points made by the other but will stick to my guns. Enough of the arguing and mocking.

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02-13-2012, 11:51 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonx View Post
Ofcourse, like many have said and I've said, it depends on the playing style whether a stiffer or softer stick is right for the player. (i.e. wristers vs. slappers) That however, is when they've developed the proper technique and also found the "sweet spot" after experienced play. I think Jarick's height/weight guideline is a good place to start for most amateur players. Once they understand the theory and had their own share of gameplay, they will automatically find a stiffness they like.

I think kovalev knows what he's talking about and I would put my bet on him than you.
So your position is that a good rule of thumb is that a whippier stick is better than a stiff one, but your position is also that Jarick's guideline that stiffness should be based on height/weight? I'm confused. You start by mocking me and then at the end you agree with me - i.e., that every player is different and needs to find the stiffness that is right for them.

There is no 'rule of thumb'. There are far too many variables at work to simply say 'a whippier stick is better.' A whippy stick in the hands of a stronger, skilled player will be just as ineffective as a stiff stick in the hands of a newb. Each player should find what works best for them based on their skill level, the type of player they are and what feels most comfortable to them.

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02-14-2012, 10:06 AM
  #79
Jarick
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It's all guidelines and starting points. You only need to figure out your flex once, unless you have a big change in height, muscle mass, or stick length.

For the record I also like the concept of starting out too whippy and then going stiffer once you learn the technique.

I only had problems with excessively whippy sticks that torqued open. I had an XN10 shaft and a Mission 75 flex that would just go way wide of the net all the time. Once I started using quality OPS that didn't happen anymore, even after dropping in flex.

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02-14-2012, 04:20 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
How much do you cut it? That thing has to be as tall as you at that flex!
maybe it's more then... I def cut it to my nose then its at my chin when on skates.. so 87 flex.. i'm 5'7 flex now 105? or what

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02-14-2012, 05:34 PM
  #81
damacumich
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
I only had problems with excessively whippy sticks that torqued open.
Can someone explain to me what it means when a hockey stick torques or torques open? Google was not very helpful and I see that phrase posted here often.

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02-14-2012, 06:31 PM
  #82
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1HUU...eature=related

Basically the first 10 seconds of the video. Notice how the stick sort of 'twists' behind and the blade as well. That's torque. You don't want too much torque or else you lose shot accuracy but neither do you NOT want torque or else the energy won't transfer as well into the shot.

As a general rule, lower end sticks torque more than higher end ones due to better materials.

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02-14-2012, 08:40 PM
  #83
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Im 5'5, 150 and use a 65 flex, it being cut prob comes to like a 75 and i still have a tough time flexing that thing on shots.

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02-15-2012, 09:06 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jorbjorb View Post
maybe it's more then... I def cut it to my nose then its at my chin when on skates.. so 87 flex.. i'm 5'7 flex now 105? or what
Prob closer to 115-120 flex.

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02-15-2012, 12:46 PM
  #85
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gonna take back what I said. Tried a 65 flex int stick last night. Shots weren't that fast but fast enough. Shots were a lot more accurate and the feel of the puck felt great in general. Flexin the stick down for quick passes was awsome too. Think I might be switchin now.

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02-15-2012, 02:05 PM
  #86
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Okay that makes a lot more sense Rarely do people benefit from relative 115-120 flex!

You might take a few ice times to adjust but should see some benefits. And if you can find a stiffer 75 flex intermediate that might also help.

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02-15-2012, 02:12 PM
  #87
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Good to see so many responses about stick flex, if there is one peice of equipment most people really like talking about it's their hockey sticks.

I've decided to try my 2 peace again instead of the composite one peace, i just need to find a Listrom or Getzlaf blade I like. I'm not sure why but I've always had a harder slap shot with a two piece easton ultra-lite than any one piece composite I have tried.

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Old
02-16-2012, 09:15 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
This is so wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
Saying that a rule of thumb is that a whippier stick is better than a stiffer sticks is, as I said, just plain wrong. There is no such rule of thumb and the statement has no basis in fact. There is only what is right for a given player, and it is far more complicated than a simple generalization like that or even simply basing it on height and/or weight.

Also, anecdotal data such as I'm xxx and I use an xx flex really isn't useful, because we have no idea whether that player uses it well. The only FACTS we know is that it takes more pressure to flex a stiffer stick and only a player that can effectively apply such pressure can benefit from a stiffer stick. Conversely a player that routinely generates too much pressure for a whippy stick won't be able to benefit from the whippy stick and in fact will see negative results. There are horses for courses and courses for horses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
So your position is that a good rule of thumb is that a whippier stick is better than a stiff one, but your position is also that Jarick's guideline that stiffness should be based on height/weight? I'm confused. You start by mocking me and then at the end you agree with me - i.e., that every player is different and needs to find the stiffness that is right for them.

There is no 'rule of thumb'. There are far too many variables at work to simply say 'a whippier stick is better.' A whippy stick in the hands of a stronger, skilled player will be just as ineffective as a stiff stick in the hands of a newb. Each player should find what works best for them based on their skill level, the type of player they are and what feels most comfortable to them.
Actually, you can't be more wrong. Let me explain: My rule of thumb is "whippier is better" which holds true even to Jarick's guidelines.

I said, start out with Jarick's guidelines, which are great. When you have to choose between a whippier vs. stiffer flex for your height range, go with the whippier stick. I don't see how that contradicts either?.... they're not mutually exclusive. Having a whippier stick doesn't mean you can't start with the guidelines?....

Example: A 5'6" player is choosing between a 65 flex and 75 flex for their "guideline" flex range. 65 feels too whippy whereas 75 feels too stiff. For my rule, you would go with the whippier stick.

I don't see how that is wrong or contradictory maybe you're just having a hard time comprehending.

What my rule of thumb is contradictory to is your stance, which is "you're wrong, just start with whatever because there's just too much to account for." Now that, is what i'm saying NOT to do.

So please do re-read my suggestions for a new player:

1) Start with Jarick's guidelines
2) When choosing between a whippier or stiffer stick, go with the whippier stick to develop proper technique
3) Once the technique has been developed, tweak your flex to your liking. Move-up or move down. Stiff or whippy.

Vs. yours:

1) Just grab whatever.. too much to account for.

You can say whatever you want but the fact is many rec players use sticks that are too long or too stiff for them. The best way to change this habit is to give them a good starting guideline. How will they know what feels "good" when they haven't even learned the proper technique for the shot yet?

There is no point of trying to explain to you anymore as you don't seem to understand the logic. Whippier sticks help new players learn to "load" their stick and develop proper technique when they can't find the "perfect" flex the first time they buy sticks. Even older players who've learnt to shoot with stiff sticks can improve by practicing with a whippier stick and readjust their technique.

I'm pretty sure if we both had 100 kids that were equally as good and they went through "my" guidelines vs yours, I would end up with a lot more better shooters than your group. I said "my" guidelines but when really it's been pin-balled around the forum a couple of times through previous discussions.


Last edited by goonx: 02-16-2012 at 09:44 PM.
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02-16-2012, 09:34 PM
  #89
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I dislike whippy sticks..I find if I get slashed in the wrong spot or take too many clappers my sticks get whippy almost a soft feeling when I have control of the puck and I hate it..I lose control of the puck easier when I deke and passing is off..just doesn't feel right..I rarely take slapshots in pickup for this reason

Luckily I grew up playing with wooden sticks so I didn't need to worry about stick flex learning to shoot

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02-16-2012, 09:53 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kessel View Post
Luckily I grew up playing with wooden sticks so I didn't need to worry about stick flex learning to shoot
Can you elaborate on this? I'm learning to play with a woodie and an confused on what you mean you didn't need to worry about stick flex learning?

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02-16-2012, 11:04 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by goonx View Post

There is no point of trying to explain to you anymore as you don't seem to understand the logic. Whippier sticks help new players learn to "load" their stick and develop proper technique when they can't find the "perfect" flex the first time they buy sticks. Even older players who've learnt to shoot with stiff sticks can improve by practicing with a whippier stick and readjust their technique.
And there's where I think you're just flat wrong. A person using a whippier stick than they otherwise need is not going to learn to be a better shooter. In fact, I'd argue they might even set themselves back.

And I didn't say 'just guess, since there's so many variables in play'. I said consider all the variables rather than default to some dopey rules of thumb. I said consider height, weight, strength, skill level and the type of player they are as well. I agree with Jarick that height and weight are good starting points, then go from there. I simply disagree that by definition whippier is better and that everyone would be better off starting with a whippier stick. But, by all means, keep the snarky comments coming!

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02-16-2012, 11:40 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrogantOwl View Post
Can you elaborate on this? I'm learning to play with a woodie and an confused on what you mean you didn't need to worry about stick flex learning?
my mistake I guess I should have been more clear..What I ment was I did not have to worry about the different stick flexes..It was grab a cheap stick off the rack and go..by the time I picked up my first OPS I had already developed my shooting technique and the transition was easy

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02-17-2012, 12:01 AM
  #93
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Ah, that makes much more sense.

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02-17-2012, 01:02 AM
  #94
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I'm using a 75 flex and a 65 flex stick right now and I'm 5'11, 170lbs. I find it doesn't make a huge difference for me at the moment because I can't even shoot a proper slapshot and snapshot yet.

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02-17-2012, 08:40 AM
  #95
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That's actually common, a lot of people using sticks too stiff don't use the flex much and don't notice a difference. Sometimes it feels "wrong" when they drop to a more natural flex, but quite often they find overall improvement once they adapt. Not always.


Goon, that actually makes more sense now that you've clarified. I think people were interpreting your statement to mean that you should use as whippy a stick as you can find, whereas you are saying if you are stuck between flexes, use the whippy stick.


Guidelines, like rules, were made to be broken and have exceptions. So I'd never argue with someone who's having great success with a stiff stick. Like Cammalleri...he's 5'9 and went from an 80 to 85 flex stick this year. Per my guidelines, he should be using 75 flex, but obviously he's got elite technique and is extremely strong for his size.

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02-17-2012, 10:19 AM
  #96
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I'm 5'9" 185
When i did not know what I was doing I had an X40 87 flex, cut to about 95 or so. When I started to learn more about flex I picked up a 77 flex cut to about 85 and the difference was noticeable. I've also tried a whip flex in the Winnwell line, which I think was around 67 or so and I could not get used to it. I found that when I loaded it up the shots came off great, but it seemed like I really had to focus too much on loading it so I could not get used to it.

As of right now I have 2 sticks; the Total One in an 84 after cut, and an X60 in the same flex. I love both sticks for different reasons, but the TO is starting to grow on me more and more each time I use it. My slappers rocket off the thing (when I hit them right) and when i get a chance to load up a wrister I can really fire it off with some pop.

As many people told me when I started playing, you really need to test things out for yourself and see what is right for you. Jarick's guidelines are a good start though.

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Old
02-18-2012, 10:21 AM
  #97
goonx
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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
And there's where I think you're just flat wrong. A person using a whippier stick than they otherwise need is not going to learn to be a better shooter. In fact, I'd argue they might even set themselves back.

And I didn't say 'just guess, since there's so many variables in play'. I said consider all the variables rather than default to some dopey rules of thumb. I said consider height, weight, strength, skill level and the type of player they are as well. I agree with Jarick that height and weight are good starting points, then go from there. I simply disagree that by definition whippier is better and that everyone would be better off starting with a whippier stick. But, by all means, keep the snarky comments coming!
LoL, yea and you just turn a blind eye to everything else i said to show why you're philosophy is wrong until the last sentence where you just wanted to disagree for the sake of disagreeing. I clearly outlined examples throughout my explanation where I've showed how a whippier stick for most new players can be beneficial. That last sentence was pretty much an afterthought.

I said PRACTICE, not necessary playing with a whippier stick throughout a whole game. Some will benefit and some won't but it isn't "flat out wrong". There are members here who have already said they've learnt to like using a lower flex stick once they've tried one. Some claim that it's done wonders for their wrist shots and better suits their technique. This pretty much applies to the last sequence I've outlined: "tweaking the flex to your style of play". You may stop skipping over words that change the context of the whole sentence.

The bottom line is, i've found that you have nothing constructive and intellectual to say and you're just here to say anything to disagree.

What really is funny is that you said you agree with Jarick's suggestion in your last reply when clearly you've been against it the whole time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
And I didn't say 'just guess, since there's so many variables in play'. I said consider all the variables rather than default to some dopey rules of thumb. I said consider height, weight, strength, skill level and the type of player they are as well. I agree with Jarick that height and weight are good starting points, then go from there. I simply disagree that by definition whippier is better and that everyone would be better off starting with a whippier stick. But, by all means, keep the snarky comments coming!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
Saying that a rule of thumb is that a whippier stick is better than a stiffer sticks is, as I said, just plain wrong. There is no such rule of thumb and the statement has no basis in fact. There is only what is right for a given player, and it is far more complicated than a simple generalization like that or even simply basing it on height and/or weight.

Also, anecdotal data such as I'm xxx and I use an xx flex really isn't useful, because we have no idea whether that player uses it well. The only FACTS we know is that it takes more pressure to flex a stiffer stick and only a player that can effectively apply such pressure can benefit from a stiffer stick. Conversely a player that routinely generates too much pressure for a whippy stick won't be able to benefit from the whippy stick and in fact will see negative results. There are horses for courses and courses for horses.

Keep trying bro. LOL

Like I said, no intellectual context to anything you've said so far and hence, I have nothing more to say to you. You can reply but I'm just going to ignore you since you've got nothing to say that's constructive. Also..... starting points are similar to "rule of thumb". What Jarick's starting points can also be called a "rule of thumb". BTW, a rule of thumb is similar in meaning to a "starting point" so maybe that's what got you confused. It doesn't have to apply to everyone.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rule+of+thumb

Ciao.


Last edited by goonx: 02-18-2012 at 10:32 AM.
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Old
02-18-2012, 04:30 PM
  #98
AIREAYE
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But what if you have a 6'2" player who is really thin and lanky with little upper body strength? Would any of you still opt for 100 flex over 75?

See? I just shot Jarick's guideline in the head. Just goes to show how there are other variables involved and that no guideline is foolproof. So stop arguing over uncertainty.

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02-18-2012, 05:32 PM
  #99
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I'm 5'9" and 150lbs and im 20 years old now, however i used a 100 flex up from the age of 14 till this past christmas, i got used to the high flex and had a good shot but i bought a 75 flex apx and cut it down so now its got ~82-84 flex and i get alot more speed on my shots and find that im more accurate.

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02-19-2012, 11:14 AM
  #100
goonx
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Originally Posted by AIREAYE View Post
But what if you have a 6'2" player who is really thin and lanky with little upper body strength? Would any of you still opt for 100 flex over 75?

See? I just shot Jarick's guideline in the head. Just goes to show how there are other variables involved and that no guideline is foolproof. So stop arguing over uncertainty.
See.. that's why it's a guideline and they're rules of thumb. It doesn't have to apply to every situation and I do agree that there are unique things about every player that make them an individual. We're not clones.

However, within the human population, there is a normal distribution. i.e. a 5'8" male is usually 140-160lbs. A 6'5" male would probably be 200-220lbs. The average shoe size for men is usually 8-10. The "majority" of the population group would lie within this range. It would be hard to find a 5'5" male at 250lb in daily life.

That's why there are guidelines and generalizations. 8 out of 10 people would probably fit within the guidelines/rule of thumb. The other two would be the deviants of the group that wouldn't fit the guidelines. Like you said, those individuals would need to find their own flex accordingly. By no means are guidelines "wrong" in those cases, it's just that the individual is an exception and you can have exceptions to guidelines/rule of thumbs. In fact, if a player is an exception to the guideline maybe they can use that to their advantage.

For example, a heavy muscular 5'8" player can use a stiffer stick to generate a much more powerful shot comparatively to their peers. a 6'3" light weighted player may be more nimble and agile to their peers and may prefer a soft stick for wrist shots when they do end-to-end rushes.

In the end, these exceptions to the guidelines/rule of thumb don't make them wrong. Guidelines are "guides" for the majority of the population and may very well suit their needs. To come out and say "there is absolutely no guideline that can be made because everyone is different" is wrong and naive.


Last edited by goonx: 02-19-2012 at 11:19 AM.
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