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Old
02-19-2012, 10:13 AM
  #176
Kjell Dahlin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
This team will not be successful with DD as their 1st line centerman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
everybody knows this and no one in their right mind would call him our #1 center.

besides who gives a **** what number you call his lines. he gets offensive minutes and he's making it count. that's the bottom line
Plekanec still is our #1 centre but Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole is a strong #1 line (our best line since Kostitsyn - Plekanec - Kovalev): they complement each other very well.

hockeyfan2k11, do you like the Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole line?


-----------------------

Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post

(...)

PS. To everyone saying this;

Who the hell is saying ALL the credit goes to DD?

No one, as far as I can see. Most people defending DD are in agreement that he's got awesome linemates but we feel he's just as big a part of that line as they are. (...)
No one is saying that ALL the credit goes to DD; you are absolutely right.

His haters are building a straw man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Extract:

1) Person A has position X.

2) Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y. Thus, Y is a resulting distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:

> Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position.

> Quoting an opponent's words out of context — i.e. choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see fallacy of quoting out of context).

> Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person's arguments — thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.

> Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.

> Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.

3) Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious, because attacking a distorted version of a position fails to constitute an attack on the actual position. (end quote)


Last edited by Kjell Dahlin: 02-19-2012 at 10:25 AM.
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Old
02-19-2012, 10:19 AM
  #177
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I like the line simply because it's the only one that's working.

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02-19-2012, 11:07 AM
  #178
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Bottom line.

Patches and Cole love to play with DD and vice versa.

If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

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02-19-2012, 11:23 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Plekanec still is our #1 centre but Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole is a strong #1 line (our best line since Kostitsyn - Plekanec - Kovalev): they complement each other very well.

hockeyfan2k11, do you like the Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole line?


-----------------------

Edit:



No one is saying that ALL the credit goes to DD; you are absolutely right.

His haters are building a straw man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Extract:

1) Person A has position X.

2) Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y. Thus, Y is a resulting distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:

> Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position.

> Quoting an opponent's words out of context — i.e. choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see fallacy of quoting out of context).

> Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person's arguments — thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.

> Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.

> Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.

3) Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious, because attacking a distorted version of a position fails to constitute an attack on the actual position. (end quote)

Actually, read the definition of straw man carefully before using it....the ONLY ONE here doing that is you trying to peddle his future as the basis of your previous argument....

Again you brought no value to the discussion except quoting a website done by others which has nothing to do with the discussion in the tread.......do you have any original thoughts of your own (except your previous position which was to peddle DD's future as the basis of your argument)???? If so, share them so that we add to the discussion.......which is what a board like this is there for....


Last edited by Sargent Pepper*: 02-19-2012 at 11:29 AM.
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Old
02-19-2012, 11:24 AM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
I like the line simply because it's the only one that's working.
Yup, when you are a bottom of the pack team, you rejoice when you have at least one thing working for you. I fully agree with you on that.....

What I have not seen you do is to pretend that DD was something he was not, to your credit!

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02-19-2012, 11:26 AM
  #181
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The lack of hockey knowledge in here is quite impressive. Or is it that half of you guys preemptively hate everyone speaking french in case he gets overrated by french canadian fans?

Desharnais isn't the savior, but he's certainly good enough to be a top-6 player in all 30 teams, and also he has no real weaknesses in his game despite his size. He's solid defensively and he's one of our best forwards in terms of puck possession.

The real problem with our offense isn't at the center position, but on the wings. Gionta, Bourque, Kostitsyn, etc. aren't good enough. And on defense, even with a healthy Markov we're missing another top-4 dman.

Add a solid top-6 forward and a solid top-4 dman to this team and we're legit contenders, even if our 1A center is 5'6...

Edit: Btw Desharnais has better season than Paccioretty, who has been leeching of his linemates for most of the year, except for the last few weeks. He has developed a great shot, but the rest of his game is a big deception this year.

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02-19-2012, 11:28 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by habitue View Post
Bottom line.

Patches and Cole love to play with DD and vice versa.

If it ain't broken, don't fix it.
Pretty much this.

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02-19-2012, 11:30 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
[...]He's solid defensively[...]
he has improved (he was godawful at the beginning), but i wouldn't go that far yet...

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02-19-2012, 11:38 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
he has improved (he was godawful at the beginning), but i wouldn't go that far yet...
You never see him out of position or getting outmuscled big bigger forwards in the defensive zone, while he and Cole are our two best forwards at keeping puck possession on the forecheck.

I don't know why everyone is whining about everything. The reason why we are having a tough season are quite obvious (only two legit top-4 dmen, and only 4 legit top-6 forwards). Could we win a cup with Desharnais and Plekanec as our best centers? Yes, absolutely.

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02-19-2012, 11:39 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
The lack of hockey knowledge in here is quite impressive. Or is it that half of you guys preemptively hate everyone speaking french in case he gets overrated by french canadian fans?

Desharnais isn't the savior, but he's certainly good enough to be a top-6 player in all 30 teams, and also he has no real weaknesses in his game despite his size. He's solid defensively and he's one of our best forwards in terms of puck possession.

The real problem with our offense isn't at the center position, but on the wings. Gionta, Bourque, Kostitsyn, etc. aren't good enough. And on defense, even with a healthy Markov we're missing another top-4 dman.

Add a solid top-6 forward and a solid top-4 dman to this team and we're legit contenders, even if our 1A center is 5'6...
C'est drôle comme on assume tout le temps que si on n’est pas de votre avis au sujet d'un joueur Québécois, on doit être anglophone....Je suis Québécois et Canadien Français de plus....

Why assume we are English because we do not share the "DD IS GOD" bandwagon? Assumptions is the often the basis of misinformation..... I do not hate DD like some pretend, hell, I compared him to Stephane Lebeau which is a complement in my book.....

No real weakness to his game? he only has one strength.....and he does not do very well defensively. Cant stake much for a small guy, cant hit, cant play PK, not much at Faceoffs......what you should says is, he only has one real strength (as opposed to no real weakness) which is to be a very good set-up guy (vision of the play, accurate passing).

We are nowhere near legit contenders and will not be as long as our #1 Center is the size of a Pee Wee center unless that center has ALL the sickening tools of a Denis Savard (which DD is nowhere near having), you will not be a legitimate Stanley cup contender. I had been proven for over a 100 years in the NHL.....but perhaps some of you know better?


Last edited by Sargent Pepper*: 02-19-2012 at 11:48 AM.
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Old
02-19-2012, 11:41 AM
  #186
Kjell Dahlin
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Originally Posted by Sargent Pepper View Post
Actually, read the definition of straw man carefully before using it....the ONLY ONE here doing that is you trying to peddle his future as the basis of your previous argument....

Again you brought no value to the discussion except quoting a website done by others which has nothing to do with the discussion in the tread.......do you have any original thoughts of your own (except your previous position which was to peddle DD's future as the basis of your argument)???? If so, share them so that we add to the discussion.......which is what a board like this is there for....
Let me help you:

1) Person A has position X.

X = Desharnais is doing a good job; kudos!

2) Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y. Thus, Y is a resulting distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways…

"... DD>>>>Plekanec!!! ...", "... giving all the credit of the 6 point out of playoff to DD..." - we do get a lot of "lol at the people who think DD is the sole reason behind our first line success" in here and that is position Y.

Going from "Desharnais is doing a good job; kudos" to "sure... DD is the sole reason behind our first line success" is, text book, building a straw man.

3) Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.

a) Desharnais is doing a good job; kudos! (position X)
b) Sure DD is the sole reason behind our first line success (creates and attacks position Y) => Your evaluation of Desharnais (position X) is incorrect.

Ref.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


---------------------

As mentioned by natey2k4: "... Who the hell is saying ALL the credit goes to DD?

No one, as far as I can see. Most people defending DD are in agreement that he's got awesome linemates but we feel he's just as big a part of that line as they are
..."


Last edited by Kjell Dahlin: 02-19-2012 at 11:47 AM.
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Old
02-19-2012, 11:41 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
You never see him out of position or getting outmuscled big bigger forwards in the defensive zone, while he and Cole are our two best forwards at keeping puck possession on the forecheck.

I don't know why everyone is whining about everything. The reason why we are having a tough season are quite obvious (only two legit top-4 dmen, and only 4 legit top-6 forwards). Could we win a cup with Desharnais and Plekanec as our best centers? Yes, absolutely.
hahaha, really? you must be missing most of the games then. Well heck, just this week actually......

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02-19-2012, 11:45 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Let me help you:

1) Person A has position X.

X = Desharnais is doing a good job; kudos!

2) Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y. Thus, Y is a resulting distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways…

"... DD>>>>Plekanec!!! ...", "... giving all the credit of the 6 point out of playoff to DD..." - we do get a lot of "lol at the people who thinks DD is the sole reason behind our first line success" in here and that is position Y.

Going from "Desharnais is doing a good job; kudos" to "DD is the sole reason behind our first line success" is, text book, building a straw man.

3) Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.

a) Desharnais is doing a good job; kudos! (position X)
b) Sure DD is the sole reason behind our first line success (creates position Y) => Your evaluation of Desharnais (position X) is incorrect.

Ref.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
So I guess your point is, you do not have a point? just a bunch of fallacies to offer?

Oh and by the way, all I said from the beginning was that DD was not to be compared to the names that the OP used at the onset of this tread.... and I rectified it further by saying that a fairer comparison would be Stephane Lebeau....and I am still awaiting for any of you to prove me wrong...even those like you who will attempt to murky the waters using smoke screens, misinterpretation and re-direction.....

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02-19-2012, 11:46 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
You never see him out of position in the defensive zone
He didn't release Stafford in coverage (which would have been covered by Kaberle in front of the net) to take his man (Ennis) in the slot for the tying goal Friday.

Take the homer glasses, Desharnais isn't very good on D. And it's going to get worse after the first year when he starts being seriously gameplanned against.

Desharnais is a good player. A very good offensive player. But he's just not good enough to be a top center on this team.

I hope he can pull it together and outgrow the expectations, because I really liked the signing back when he was coming out of juniors and he's been nothing short of a fantastic find.

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02-19-2012, 11:53 AM
  #190
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So I guess your point is, you do not have a point? just a bunch of fallacies to offer?

Oh and by the way, all I said from the beginning was that DD was not to be compared to the names that the OP used at the onset of this tread.... and I rectified it further by saying that a fairer comparison would be Stephane Lebeau....and I am still awaiting for any of you to prove me wrong...even those like you who will attempt to murky the waters using smoke screens, misinterpretation and re-direction.....
Just wondering why you always try to set up discussions to make it look like trickery or deception is required to present a position stronger than your own? Not even saying that his case is "stronger" than yours here, but dude, you've been down this road before.

He's right about the strawman, and you're right that your shift towards focusing on Lebeau as a comparative was a good move. Enough with the trickster shtick though, please.

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02-19-2012, 11:59 AM
  #191
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C'est drôle comme on assume tout le temps que si on n’est pas de votre avis au sujet d'un joueur Québécois, on doit être anglophone....Je suis Québécois et Canadien Français de plus....

Why assume we are English because we do not share the "DD IS GOD" bandwagon? Assumptions is the often the basis of misinformation..... I do not hate DD like some pretend, hell, I compared him to Stephane Lebeau which is a complement in my book.....

We are nowhere near legit contenders and will not be as long as our #1 Center is the size of a Pee Wee center unless that center has ALL the sickening tools of a Denis Savard (which DD is nowhere near having), you will not be a legitimate Stanley cup contender. I had been proven for over a 100 years in the NHL.....but perhaps some of you know better?
"DD is god" bandwagon? Where?

Btw, last year Boston won the cup with Krejci, Bergeron and Horton as center, which is a great trio of centers, but individually none of them is clearly better than Desharnais. And their wingers sucked even more than ours (Lucic, Recchi, Ryder).

The year before the Blackhawks won with Toews and Sharp (nothing special either) and with Niemi in net.

This year the Rangers are at the top of the standings with Richards and Stepan as their top centers...yuck. (way worse than Desharnais/Plekanec)

My point is: We're in the cap era. There aren't any dominant teams anymore. And there isn't a clear recipe to win the cup. Get rid of Gomez' salary. Add a top-6 winger and top-4 dman (plus a healthy Markov) and we're as good as anyone in the league.


Last edited by LeMAD: 02-19-2012 at 12:08 PM.
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02-19-2012, 11:59 AM
  #192
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Lol what's up with this forum lately? It's packed with people who try to show their 'superior intellect' over others.

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02-19-2012, 12:05 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
He didn't release Stafford in coverage (which would have been covered by Kaberle in front of the net) to take his man (Ennis) in the slot for the tying goal Friday.
Wrong exemple. Desharnais kept his man (and it was his job to do so) while Kaberle wasn't watching anyone. Ennis was on the other side of the ice and was Kaberle's responsability. Even if Desharnais had made the wrong play and went after Ennis, Kaberle would still be looking at the puck instead of doing something useful.

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02-19-2012, 12:19 PM
  #194
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Lol what's up with this forum lately? It's packed with people who try to show their 'superior intellect' over others.
Well, it's better than insulting one and other, no ?

As for the thread, why in hell did it come to another habs player vs another habs player debate ?

Great season by DD, hope he keeps it up and become the best player he can be, period.

People who want to trash DD, get out, don't read this thread, there are other ones you can comment on !

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02-19-2012, 12:22 PM
  #195
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Desharnais has the best vision of all our offensive players.

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02-19-2012, 12:38 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
"DD is god" bandwagon? Where?

Btw, last year Boston won the cup with Krejci, Bergeron and Horton as center, which is a great trio of centers, but individually none of them is clearly better than Desharnais. And their wingers sucked even more than ours (Lucic, Recchi, Ryder).

The year before the Blackhawks won with Toews and Sharp (nothing special either) and with Niemi in net.

This year the Rangers are at the top of the standings with Richards and Stepan as their top centers...yuck. (way worse than Desharnais/Plekanec)

My point is: We're in the cap era. There aren't any dominant teams anymore. And there isn't a clear recipe to win the cup. Get rid of Gomez' salary. Add a top-6 winger and top-4 dman (plus a healthy Markov) and we're as good as anyone in the league.
Sorry, I do not subscribe to Toews and Sharp not being special.....frankly, that is just wrong! As for the Boston example, each of the 3 players you list bring far more to the table than DD. Finally, you said the Rangers Richards and Stepan are way worst than Desharnais and PLek?

Dude, that post is just wrong and a homers view.....all of the players you listed all bring more to the table in terms of overall hockey contribution than DD.....of all the primary players in this list, DD is the only one dimensional players of the lot...

Notwithstanding the cap issue, I would trade DD for any of the names you listed above...and feel very good about it!

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02-19-2012, 12:42 PM
  #197
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Lol what's up with this forum lately? It's packed with people who try to show their 'superior intellect' over others.
Being right or wrong is not about intellect....This is a discussion board. You will always have those who see things one way, and those seeing things another way....if there was just one opinion, we would not need a board to discuss it!

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02-19-2012, 12:43 PM
  #198
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Desharnais has the best vision of all our offensive players.
Well that I do agree with. His vision is what makes him a very good set-up man. Set-up man are necessary to feed the shooters....and we have a good one.

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02-19-2012, 12:45 PM
  #199
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Wrong exemple. Desharnais kept his man (and it was his job to do so) while Kaberle wasn't watching anyone. Ennis was on the other side of the ice and was Kaberle's responsability. Even if Desharnais had made the wrong play and went after Ennis, Kaberle would still be looking at the puck instead of doing something useful.
You must have missed the 20 or so replay during the game where every commentator agreed that DD missed his coverage......

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02-19-2012, 12:49 PM
  #200
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As of 02/19/10, Desharnais is 25th in assists league-wide and 56th in total points... Not bad for an undrafted center that stands at 5'6 or 5'7.

If he was just a bit stronger along the boards and a bit faster, I'm sure the guy'd see a lot more praise and hype going his way.

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