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Rangers are interested in Nash (McKenzie: Rangers/Kings Strongest Suitors) PART II

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02-19-2012, 02:47 PM
  #901
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
I argue that it does not put us in a worse situation with the cap, so I respectfully disagree with it. You say you don't want to go all the way to the cap which would be the case if we kept Dubinsky while adding Nash. My point is that when the time comes Dubinsky is essentially a liquid asset that can be moved to clear the necessary space. Worst case he's just waived and sent to CT (he doesn't have a NMC as far as I know.) He has no effect on the cap (as long as Parise fits too) beyond being a temporary hold on it. As long as we are prepared to move him later there's no reason not to keep him for now if we can.
This is my point. Either move is going to cost the Rangers assets. Whether you trade Duby for Nash now or you sign Parise and a year from now trade or send him down to make room for the RFA contracts its going to cost a roster player/s. Cant have it all ie Duby and Parise and the RFA's.

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02-19-2012, 02:50 PM
  #902
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Originally Posted by JoeRangers View Post
This is my point. Either move is going to cost the Rangers assets. Whether you trade Duby for Nash now or you sign Parise and a year from now trade or send him down to make room for the RFA contracts its going to cost a roster player/s. Cant have it all ie Duby and Parise and the RFA's.
Glad I'm not the only one who noticed this. Wrote about it earlier in the thread

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02-19-2012, 02:54 PM
  #903
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This is my point. Either move is going to cost the Rangers assets. Whether you trade Duby for Nash now or you sign Parise and a year from now trade or send him down to make room for the RFA contracts its going to cost a roster player/s. Cant have it all ie Duby and Parise and the RFA's.
That doesn't make any sense to me if I'm understanding you correctly... If you trade Dubi in a package deal for Nash, you are exchanging assets to make the acquisition. If you sign Parise as a UFA and trade Dubi, you are gaining a return in the process as the initial acquisition is not costing you anything but cap space. It's not the same either way.

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02-19-2012, 02:57 PM
  #904
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
That doesn't make any sense to me if I'm understanding you correctly... If you trade Dubi in a package deal for Nash, you are exchanging assets to make the acquisition. If you sign Parise as a UFA and trade Dubi, you are gaining a return in the process as the initial acquisition is not costing you anything but cap space. It's not the same either way.
Are you guys really missing what he's trying to say? Majority of the people are against getting Nash because of his cap hit. They fear in the long run we won't be able to sign our own guys.

The same people instead want to sign Parise without moving any contracts/assets
That is far more dangerous than moving contracts to get Nash in here. You dump some salary in the process of getting Nash. You don't when you just sign Parise.

Why not if youre going to move Dubi, move him for a big piece; a player that can step in when Gabby's contract expires in 2 seasons. Who is to say we bring Gabby back?

The only thing standing in the way is Kreider and other rumored names like MDZ. If you can keep these guys and still make a trade then Nash makes a lot of sense for this franchise moving forward.

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02-19-2012, 03:02 PM
  #905
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
1- I've seen very few people saying they are happy with Richards' current production. What I HAVE seen (and done) are people saying we need to have patience. Richards needed a full season to adjust the last time he was traded, and he followed it up with the best season of his career. He's also got a track record as a playoffs beast. Richards is worth his contract--he has a history of putting up PPG production. Nash has a history of NOT living up to his contract. People love to bring up team Canada. When a player can only produce when surrounded by the best players in the world, that's not a good thing. Look at the Rangers' roster. This ain't team Canada.

2- Not arguing that Dubinsky is better than Nash, but Dubinsky on his contract is better than Nash on his contract. I'll ask you the same thing I asked the other guy--would you be okay paying a guy 3.5 million to score 15-20 points? And that's JUST looking at the offense (not taking into account the defense, PKing and grit).
1. So what your telling me is that you would rather have Richards than Nash at the same cap hit. That's just nuts to me.... You must have a better hockey iq than the brain trust at team Canada or the rest of the gms in the NHL. Because I guarantee you Columbus would not do Nash for Richards straight up. How can you comment on a guys ceiling or ppg numbers when he plays in Columbus against top dmen every night. They know if he doesn't beat you no one else on that team will. You also forget that playing for team Canada with good players is great but they are also playing against the other best players in the world... I love it that you give him a whole year to adjust like he's playing a new sport or turned into a dman or something. It's not a new system he's playing he had torts before. I thought he started out the year great in camp and the first month. Now he looks slow, soft and uninspired. I hope he turns it around but he is definitely not living up to current contract.

2. 7.8 for Nash who could possibly get you 40 the next 6 years and it also gives Richards some help producing which he desperately needs. Or dubi plus the contract of wolski or Avery on your roster. Nash all day. Even without getting them to take wolski as a salary dump I would still prefer the ceiling of Nash at 3.8 More than dubi. This also gets an extra elc on the roster next year... Kreider, miller???? Better than going out and signing another wolski or frolov for 3.5 this summer.

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02-19-2012, 03:05 PM
  #906
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I don't think that Nash will fit in with this team and I don't want to give up guys I like and take on another large long term contract to find out.

I think Parise could fit in here but that's a different question.

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02-19-2012, 03:09 PM
  #907
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Originally Posted by hpNYR View Post
Are you guys really missing what he's trying to say? Majority of the people are against getting Nash because of his cap hit. They fear in the long run we won't be able to sign our own guys.
That's only 50% of the issue that people have with it. They also don't want to lose one of our best prospects and promising young defensemen in the process! Many fans do not view this situation as a imperative trade that must be made. More like a risky gamble that's not necessary at this time.

Quote:
The same people instead want to sign Parise without moving any contracts/assets
That is far more dangerous than moving contracts to get Nash in here. You dump some salary in the process of getting Nash. You don't when you just sign Parise.
Umm so why can't the Rangers trade Dubinsky after they sign Parise???? Wolski's cap hit will be gone and another $2 mil of Drury's buyout cap hit would be gone, I would guess the #'s work. If the cap is decreased they would surely give the teams options to free up cap space.

Quote:
Why not if youre going to move Dubi, move him for a big piece; a player that can step in when Gabby's contract expires in 2 seasons. Who is to say we bring Gabby back?

The only thing standing in the way is Kreider and other rumored names like MDZ. If you can keep these guys and still make a trade then Nash makes a lot of sense for this franchise moving forward.
Yeah, and you can't do the same after pursuing a free agent in the summer? Columbus is not going to trade their franchise player for a struggling Dubinsky and the Rangers B-level prospects and end of the round picks.

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02-19-2012, 03:09 PM
  #908
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Someone said it earlier in this thread, the only way we are getting Nash, is if Columbus accepts Sather's package, not the other way around. I really like Dubi, but let's face it, he's a 20 goal scorer, and Nash is the type of offensive player this team needs THIS year, and for years to come.
Nash MIGHT disrupt team chemistry, but WILL make this team better (if only Dubi is removed from the current roster).

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02-19-2012, 03:13 PM
  #909
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
http://www.bluejacketsxtra.com/conte...-subplots.html

Dubinsky wants no part of playing in Columbus. They don't want another Jeff Carter.

Someone needs to tell Aaron Portzine,McD,DZ and Kreider aren't available.
So does that make Dubinsky a malcontent as well?


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02-19-2012, 03:14 PM
  #910
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its amazing to me that the same people who dont want nash think that richards is worth the contract he has and is playing up to it. nash is a huge upgrade over dubi. he is a shoe in for team canada in socci and if canada could enter 3 teams richards and dubi would not make any of them. sorry but everyone else is gonna upgrade by the deadline and if we stand pat and get knocked out early every one will want sathers head for not making a deal. not saying they need to give the farm away but for dubi, miller, erixon and 1st throw in wolski for the cap dump. sather would be crazy not to do it.
If Canada could enter 1000 teams Dubinsky wouldn't make any of them.

Which is not to say that Dubinsky's a bad player--only that he's an American. Enough of that.

Two problems really. How much value is worth giving up for Nash in terms of personnel? and 2) how will bringing in Nash effect our cap in years to come?

More or less I could live with a choice of either Dubinsky/Anisimov, our 2012 1st, Erixon, and one choice of Thomas, Fogarty, St. Croix and Fasth + they have to take Wolski. We get back Nash and a 2nd.

OTOH there still remains a question of how worthwhile it would be--at least unless the Rangers won the SC. It would almost certainly make it harder for us to manage cap wise unless the cap were to keep rising--something which I tend to doubt. Might make it much harder a few years from now to keep all the guys that have been growing together.

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02-19-2012, 03:20 PM
  #911
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
So does that make Dubinsky a malcontent as well, right?
He's gonna be miserable in Columbus? Uh oh that must mean he's a cancer lets trade him

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02-19-2012, 03:27 PM
  #912
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
That's only 50% of the issue that people have with it. They also don't want to lose one of our best prospects and promising young defensemen in the process! Many fans do not view this situation as a imperative trade that must be made. More like a risky gamble that's not necessary at this time.



Umm so why can't the Rangers trade Dubinsky after they sign Parise???? Wolski's cap hit will be gone and another $2 mil of Drury's buyout cap hit would be gone, I would guess the #'s work. If the cap is decreased they would surely give the teams options to free up cap space.



Yeah, and you can't do the same after pursuing a free agent in the summer? Columbus is not going to trade their franchise player for a struggling Dubinsky and the Rangers B-level prospects and end of the round picks.
This whole thing started because it was stated that signing Parise is worse "FOR THE CAP" than trading Duby for Nash. Not saying what is the better move or smarter move just stating numbers wise with THE SALARY CAP. Signing Parise adds $7 million to the cap next season. Trading Duby for Nash only adds $3.6 million.

Now people are saying that by acquiring Nash it puts the Rangers in a tough spot when McD, AA, Stepan, Hagelin and Sauer are RFA's but signing Parise puts the Rangers in just as bad if not worse position strictly speaking numbers wise.

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02-19-2012, 03:28 PM
  #913
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Originally Posted by 4th Line Grinder View Post
He's gonna be miserable in Columbus? Uh oh that must mean he's a cancer lets trade him
Bingo. Just another Jeff Carter.

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02-19-2012, 03:28 PM
  #914
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Im betting Sather bends Howson over right before the game and Nash comes out in a Nice Rangers jersey

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02-19-2012, 03:29 PM
  #915
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
If Canada could enter 1000 teams Dubinsky wouldn't make any of them.

Which is not to say that Dubinsky's a bad player--only that he's an American. Enough of that.

Two problems really. How much value is worth giving up for Nash in terms of personnel? and 2) how will bringing in Nash effect our cap in years to come?

More or less I could live with a choice of either Dubinsky/Anisimov, our 2012 1st, Erixon, and one choice of Thomas, Fogarty, St. Croix and Fasth + they have to take Wolski. We get back Nash and a 2nd.

OTOH there still remains a question of how worthwhile it would be--at least unless the Rangers won the SC. It would almost certainly make it harder for us to manage cap wise unless the cap were to keep rising--something which I tend to doubt. Might make it much harder a few years from now to keep all the guys that have been growing together.
Looking to move back 1 spot in the draft?

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02-19-2012, 03:30 PM
  #916
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Bingo. Just another Jeff Carter.
I heard Duby likes to party a lot.

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02-19-2012, 03:32 PM
  #917
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I constantly have to reiterate that I much prefer Carter over Nash, but I still don't think #1) Nash is going to command the equivalent of Dubinsky, Miller/Kreider, 1st, +MDZ/MCD/Erixon/Sauer; and #2) Sather won't pay that price regardless. No player with a NTC, a big contract, and a very public auction has commanded this return. Not Heatley, Kovalchuk, Hossa, Thornton (I know some didn't have NTC or term left on their contracts, but they had bigger demand and value). Nash has less value because of his contract, he won't get more than Kovalchuk and Hossa. Bobby Ryan didn't have this much being offered and he has a better contract. Granted, the price is whatever the trading partners agree on, I don't think it'll be this ransom.

If the price came down to Dubinsky, Thomas, Valentenko/MZA, and 1st, or anything in that vicinity, I'm all for it. Dubinsky is better than any piece in the Kovalchuk or Hossa deals. Valentenko I know is a homer toss in, but it could work for both the player and the team. MZA same thing. The 1st is a very movable asset or potential roster player for a rebuilding team's future. If it came down to Dubinsky and the "throw in player" for Carter, let's make a deal. Wolski could fit in, but doesn't have to.

Sather doesn't get his hand forced in trades. He doesn't move youth. He doesn't move 1st round picks. He balked at Heatley, Kovalchuk, supposedly Ryan, supposedly Tkachuk... face it, we're at the center of every rumor. The front office is spouting team chemistry, a window beyond this year, they like this roster, they are sticking to the plan of building from within. It could be lip service, but it's been the philosophy since the lockout and the actual practice for 3 seasons.

You can't even make the "marketing" argument. Callahan, Dubinsky, Stepan, MDZ, McD, Girardi, Staal, Lundqvist, Hagelin... the fans are going crazy for our developed players. Gaborik and Richards are on another tier, Nash and Carter would be too. I have no doubt they'll make the right decision.


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02-19-2012, 03:33 PM
  #918
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Originally Posted by JoeRangers View Post
I heard Duby likes to party a lot.
Those Alaskan boys really know how to throw a shin dig

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02-19-2012, 03:35 PM
  #919
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Why should Columbus get band by anyone?, why are they in such a rush to trade their overpriced star? They can wait till the off season and get what they want for him.

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02-19-2012, 03:38 PM
  #920
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Originally Posted by hpNYR View Post
Are you guys really missing what he's trying to say? Majority of the people are against getting Nash because of his cap hit. They fear in the long run we won't be able to sign our own guys.

The same people instead want to sign Parise without moving any contracts/assets
That is far more dangerous than moving contracts to get Nash in here. You dump some salary in the process of getting Nash. You don't when you just sign Parise.

Why not if youre going to move Dubi, move him for a big piece; a player that can step in when Gabby's contract expires in 2 seasons. Who is to say we bring Gabby back?

The only thing standing in the way is Kreider and other rumored names like MDZ. If you can keep these guys and still make a trade then Nash makes a lot of sense for this franchise moving forward.
Don't generalize. Some of the anti-Nash crowd may, but I haven't advocated for signing Parise. Many of the posters that share my feelings on Nash are also opposed to signing Parise.

Even then, I don't buy your argument about dumping contracts in acquiring Nash. Let's say we trade Dubinsky, two prospects and a pick for Nash. What we acquire is limited to Nash. Now, let's say we wait until the offseason in an attempt to sign someone like Parise. We trade Dubinsky for a pick and a prospect, then sign a free agent. What we've acquired is now the free agent, plus the pick and prospect. That's a better return than exchanging assets for Nash.

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02-19-2012, 03:43 PM
  #921
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I heard Duby likes to party a lot.
Absolutly bombed on 24/7.

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02-19-2012, 03:47 PM
  #922
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its amazing to me that the same people who dont want nash think that richards is worth the contract he has and is playing up to it. nash is a huge upgrade over dubi. he is a shoe in for team canada in socci and if canada could enter 3 teams richards and dubi would not make any of them. sorry but everyone else is gonna upgrade by the deadline and if we stand pat and get knocked out early every one will want sathers head for not making a deal. not saying they need to give the farm away but for dubi, miller, erixon and 1st throw in wolski for the cap dump. sather would be crazy not to do it.
Well, Dubinsky is American so....

I think it's just smarter to see how the kids preform in the playoffs this year without making any blockbuster trades. We don't *need* to move anybody.. Unless someone wants to take Wolski off our hands. This is not the only season we'll have a shot at contending for the cup with the roster we have.

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02-19-2012, 04:07 PM
  #923
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Well, Dubinsky is American so....

I think it's just smarter to see how the kids preform in the playoffs this year without making any blockbuster trades. We don't *need* to move anybody.. Unless someone wants to take Wolski off our hands. This is not the only season we'll have a shot at contending for the cup with the roster we have.
it doesnt matter if hes american it was a hockey player comparison. it gets made all the time... if callahan was canadien he would not of made their tryout camp. was just taking it to another level by saying they could make 3 team canadas and richards or dubi would not be there and nash is a lock just trying to show how much difference there is in dubi vs nash as players.

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02-19-2012, 04:11 PM
  #924
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Don't generalize. Some of the anti-Nash crowd may, but I haven't advocated for signing Parise. Many of the posters that share my feelings on Nash are also opposed to signing Parise.

Even then, I don't buy your argument about dumping contracts in acquiring Nash. Let's say we trade Dubinsky, two prospects and a pick for Nash. What we acquire is limited to Nash. Now, let's say we wait until the offseason in an attempt to sign someone like Parise. We trade Dubinsky for a pick and a prospect, then sign a free agent. What we've acquired is now the free agent, plus the pick and prospect. That's a better return than exchanging assets for Nash.
I share the same sentiment as you. Yes, we could use another scorer, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the caliber of a Parise or a Nash.

Also agree that the Parise scenario makes more sense than trading for Nash in terms of asset management, if I had to choose one.

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02-19-2012, 04:14 PM
  #925
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I would take Nash if it doesn't cost a ton. I would not take Nash if they have to trade away Dubinsky + Kreider + Sauer + 1st.

It's really that simple.

If we are talking Dubinsky + Thomas + 1st then I pull the trigger.

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