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Old
02-19-2012, 03:09 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by Sargent Pepper View Post
Seems like you're falling for your own fallacies.......after years of pimping him, how can you be realistic and tell it as it is, huh?

Small Centre with no outstanding scoring skills, no skating skills, not D skills, no size or roughness in him.....and you want to pawn him as a legitimate #1 center? Really? that's your story?

As I said all along, he is akin to Stephane Lebeau (even if Lebeau was better defensively and a much better skater - I am giving DD the benefit of the doubt that he will improve on some of his skills going forward). I have read nothing from anyone that changes that. He is not a PPG guy and he will not remain on the first line once we have a real #1.....(may be as early as next year as PG always liked big #1 centers)

So a one way player with one major skill (reminds me of MAB but at Center) and we want to bill him as a superstar and a legitimate #1 center? Are you kidding me? Have you got no common sense?

However, he is good and due to our weak team, was provided with an opportunity this year and he made the best of it......all to his credit. But do not confuse that for a legitimate #1 center (regardless if he is in the top 20)........unless you see us being in the bottom of the pack for the next 5 years for which we will not need a REAL #1 Center........
You make absolutely no sense. You should really read someone's post before replying to it.

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02-19-2012, 03:10 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Sargent Pepper View Post
Sorry, I do not subscribe to Toews and Sharp not being special.....frankly, that is just wrong! As for the Boston example, each of the 3 players you list bring far more to the table than DD. Finally, you said the Rangers Richards and Stepan are way worst than Desharnais and PLek?

Dude, that post is just wrong and a homers view.....all of the players you listed all bring more to the table in terms of overall hockey contribution than DD.....of all the primary players in this list, DD is the only one dimensional players of the lot...

Notwithstanding the cap issue, I would trade DD for any of the names you listed above...and feel very good about it!
The players on that list DD could be more comparable to are Richards and Krecji. Soft minutes one-way players who aren't especially strong defensively and better used in a sheltered and PP specialist role (Richards more so than Krejci). Not sure I'd trade for Richards contract, doesn't seem worth it for a player that needs sheltering and is on the decline.

DD brings a lot for his contract, yes it's annoying when people act like Pacioretty could barely score at the NHL level before playing with him (on pace for 30 + last season playing with Gomez, who everybody thinks is terrible and Gio who can't pass) or like he makes Plekanec expendable but that's not DD's problem.

I'd say a big part of the problem is the lack of real analysis on hockey shows and all. People don't hear about the distinction between PP prod and ES prod or between tough minutes and soft minutes, what we hear is how X player has 5 more points than Y player so he must be so much better... Players are more than their point totals and the l'Antichambre crew and all never mention that so it's pretty normal that most people won't magically get these things.

If player X limits a top line to 3 scoring chances in a game (but let's say 2 goes in, he finishes -2) and is on the ice for 10 scoring chances(and none goes in) and player Y is on the ice for only 3 scoring chances for (2 happens to go in, he gets 2 points) but 10 against playing lesser opposition, who had the better game? The stat sheet would say player Y...

But reading those names shows how much we can't rank players by production. Krecji outscored Bergeron last season and in the playoffs but he was in absolutely no way a better player than him. Bergeron is one of the best tough minutes center in the league and a puck possession beast, DD may be comparable in points totals but his overall impact in a game doesn't compare at all. Not a whole lot of players can impact a game in every single way like Bergeron does.

And Bolland, another top tough minutes center, can't be forgetten when talking Chigago's center depth.

Though I'll say we have a better 5o5 offence than the Rangers. I also think we might have the edge in center depth but that would be because we have the best tough minutes guy in the lot (+Eller who can't be forgotten when talking about our depth at center)
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Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
Desharnais has now become our number 1 center cause he such a great talent. But ideally he would be our second line center. We need to replace Plekanec with a big talented center. We are way too small at center with both Plekanec and Desharnais. I believe Plekanec will be gone soon. If not at trade deadline, maybe this summer.
Those are the kind of comments that annoy people about DD.

Plekanec remains the better player, the main difference would be that playing Plekanec's role DD would at best, be pretty useless, at worst, be absolutely terrible. (but most players would be that playing the role Plek does)

Wich is the whole reason DD ended up with Cole and Patches. Eller (who's the better tough minutes player between him and DD ) had to take Plekanec's place on the tough minutes trio (wich was an amazing puck possession trio) of Subban-Plekanec-Gorges because Plekanec had to become "the second D pairing" while the injuries to tough minutes players meant we couldn't hide our lack of a second pair.

Acting like DD began "outperforming" Plek out of nowhere and stole the number one center spot is rewriting history.

Much like saying he was on pace for 40+ pts last year playing with Darche and Pyatt is (no mention of his PP pts or the guy who was our 4th ES pts leader) especially when Plekanec's linemates aren't taken into consideration when comparing his pts totals to DDs.

Plekanec is still our best center.

Edit: MSL isn't a good comparable to DD. Briere is, and Briere can get lots of points but there are things he can't do and he's better used in a role where he doesn't have to do these things. Briere scores more when used as a 3rd line center than he does used as a second line one.

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02-19-2012, 03:12 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
Right, DD will choke in the playoffs because he is small. Just like Mike Cammalleri.
Players choke in the playoff because of their character not their size. Plekanec chokes in the playoff cause he cant handle pressure. DD has the heart of a lion and was good last year and will be good for years to come


Last edited by Undertakerqc: 02-19-2012 at 03:19 PM.
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02-19-2012, 03:15 PM
  #254
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Hey buddy I said a playoff series. You know the time of year when the refs no longer protect players from cheap tactics.

And are you seriously using 9 games as proof?
Are you really making **** up?

I guess so.

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02-19-2012, 03:20 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
Players choke in the playoff becoause of their character not their size. Plekanec chokes in the playoff cause he cant handle pressure. DD has the heart of a lion and was good last year and will be good for years to come
LoL
1 series that he didn't complete due to injury proves nothing.
Heart of a Lion? by that reasoning intangibles are worth more than tangibles?...........can we somehow manage to stay in touch with reality please?

I don't understand this fan base at times, we need bigger better stronger centers then a quebecer shows up and it changes to let's play him with our 2 power forwards and get a BIG #1 center to insulate him?
If i need to go to those lengths I'd rather package him and get on with my life!!

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02-19-2012, 03:20 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
You make absolutely no sense. You should really read someone's post before replying to it.
Actually, it makes perfect sense to one who actually reads it in context of your previous post....Maybe you need to re-read....

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02-19-2012, 03:23 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Sargent Pepper View Post
Actually, it makes perfect sense to one who actually reads it in context of your previous post....Maybe you need to re-read....
No, it really doesn't.

You can't just start making **** up and use that in your debate. When you start debating with me about something I never said, you look ridiculous.

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02-19-2012, 03:26 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by EllertoKostitsynGoal View Post
The players on that list DD could be more comparable to are Richards and Krecji. Soft minutes one-way players who aren't especially strong defensively and better used in a sheltered and PP specialist role (Richards more so than Krejci). Not sure I'd trade for Richards contract, doesn't seem worth it for a player that needs sheltering and is on the decline.

DD brings a lot for his contract, yes it's annoying when people act like Pacioretty could barely score at the NHL level before playing with him (on pace for 30 + last season playing with Gomez, who everybody thinks is terrible and Gio who can't pass) or like he makes Plekanec expendable but that's not DD's problem.

I'd say a big part of the problem is the lack of real analysis on hockey shows and all. People don't hear about the distinction between PP prod and ES prod or between tough minutes and soft minutes, what we hear is how X player has 5 more points than Y player so he must be so much better... Players are more than their point totals and the l'Antichambre crew and all never mention that so it's pretty normal that most people won't magically get these things.

If player X limits a top line to 3 scoring chances in a game (but let's say 2 goes in, he finishes -2) and is on the ice for 10 scoring chances(and none goes in) and player Y is on the ice for only 3 scoring chances for (2 happens to go in, he gets 2 points) but 10 against playing lesser opposition, who had the better game? The stat sheet would say player Y...

But reading those names shows how much we can't rank players by production. Krecji outscored Bergeron last season and in the playoffs but he was in absolutely no way a better player than him. Bergeron is one of the best tough minutes center in the league and a puck possession beast, DD may be comparable in points totals but his overall impact in a game doesn't compare at all. Not a whole lot of players can impact a game in every single way like Bergeron does.

And Bolland, another top tough minutes center, can't be forgetten when talking Chigago's center depth.

Though I'll say we have a better 5o5 offence than the Rangers. I also think we might have the edge in center depth but that would be because we have the best tough minutes guy in the lot (+Eller who can't be forgotten when talking about our depth at center).
I think this is a solid analysis. It is what I was saying earlier by some players bringing more to the table.....some players are far more useful, even if DD has more points.

I dont know many DD type players in the league right now but Lebeau, Comrie are decent example.....

As for Richards, I would take him over DD as a hockey player....but not with his contract....I agree with that....

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02-19-2012, 03:27 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
No, it really doesn't.

You can't just start making **** up and use that in your debate. When you start debating with me about something I never said, you look ridiculous.
Show me where I made anything up? Oh please, do that, I would be happy to show the path to ridiculousness....

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02-19-2012, 03:31 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
LoL
1 series that he didn't complete due to injury proves nothing.
Heart of a Lion? by that reasoning intangibles are worth more than tangibles?...........can we somehow manage to stay in touch with reality please?

I don't understand this fan base at times, we need bigger better stronger centers then a quebecer shows up and it changes to let's play him with our 2 power forwards and get a BIG #1 center to insulate him?
If i need to go to those lengths I'd rather package him and get on with my life!!
If your preoccupation with replacing Desharnais is getting in the way of your life, maybe you should get a hobby or go for a walk. I don't understand why we can't get excited that we have a player who is playing well and surpassing expectations.

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02-19-2012, 03:33 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
Plekanec is not our first line center anymore. And if we draft a Grigorenko, a Faksa or Galchenyuk this summer, we could ease one of them has our second line center. So Plek will have no room anymore has Eller is now our third line center and is has good defensivly as Plekanec and has more size
No, not yet. Eller has been great defensively but he's still mistake prone. You expect him to carry the assignments that Plekanec does and he's going to get exposed. I think Eller is a special player but he's about a year away from being a complete beast.

So was Plekanec a playoff choker when he got 5 points in 7 games (only "big game" Gionta and Cammalleri had as much/more), or when he shut down Krejci (1 goal vs the Habs, would lead the team in points and goals for the rest of the playoffs)? What a poor character choker, indeed.


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02-19-2012, 03:35 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by EllertoKostitsynGoal View Post
The players on that list DD could be more comparable to are Richards and Krecji. Soft minutes one-way players who aren't especially strong defensively and better used in a sheltered and PP specialist role (Richards more so than Krejci). Not sure I'd trade for Richards contract, doesn't seem worth it for a player that needs sheltering and is on the decline.

DD brings a lot for his contract, yes it's annoying when people act like Pacioretty could barely score at the NHL level before playing with him (on pace for 30 + last season playing with Gomez, who everybody thinks is terrible and Gio who can't pass) or like he makes Plekanec expendable but that's not DD's problem.

I'd say a big part of the problem is the lack of real analysis on hockey shows and all. People don't hear about the distinction between PP prod and ES prod or between tough minutes and soft minutes, what we hear is how X player has 5 more points than Y player so he must be so much better... Players are more than their point totals and the l'Antichambre crew and all never mention that so it's pretty normal that most people won't magically get these things.

If player X limits a top line to 3 scoring chances in a game (but let's say 2 goes in, he finishes -2) and is on the ice for 10 scoring chances(and none goes in) and player Y is on the ice for only 3 scoring chances for (2 happens to go in, he gets 2 points) but 10 against playing lesser opposition, who had the better game? The stat sheet would say player Y...

But reading those names shows how much we can't rank players by production. Krecji outscored Bergeron last season and in the playoffs but he was in absolutely no way a better player than him. Bergeron is one of the best tough minutes center in the league and a puck possession beast, DD may be comparable in points totals but his overall impact in a game doesn't compare at all. Not a whole lot of players can impact a game in every single way like Bergeron does.

And Bolland, another top tough minutes center, can't be forgetten when talking Chigago's center depth.

Though I'll say we have a better 5o5 offence than the Rangers. I also think we might have the edge in center depth but that would be because we have the best tough minutes guy in the lot (+Eller who can't be forgotten when talking about our depth at center)


Those are the kind of comments that annoy people about DD.

Plekanec remains the better player, the main difference would be that playing Plekanec's role DD would at best, be pretty useless, at worst, be absolutely terrible. (but most players would be that playing the role Plek does)

Wich is the whole reason DD ended up with Cole and Patches. Eller (who's the better tough minutes player between him and DD ) had to take Plekanec's place on the tough minutes trio (wich was an amazing puck possession trio) of Subban-Plekanec-Gorges because Plekanec had to become "the second D pairing" while the injuries to tough minutes players meant we couldn't hide our lack of a second pair.

Acting like DD began "outperforming" Plek out of nowhere and stole the number one center spot is rewriting history.

Much like saying he was on pace for 40+ pts last year playing with Darche and Pyatt is (no mention of his PP pts or the guy who was our 4th ES pts leader) especially when Plekanec's linemates aren't taken into consideration when comparing his pts totals to DDs.

Plekanec is still our best center.

Edit: MSL isn't a good comparable to DD. Briere is, and Briere can get lots of points but there are things he can't do and he's better used in a role where he doesn't have to do these things. Briere scores more when used as a 3rd line center than he does used as a second line one.

Refreshingly intelligent post, and frankly becoming one of my favorite posters on this board. Good job.

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02-19-2012, 03:35 PM
  #263
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No, not yet. Eller has been great defensively but he's still mistake prone. You expect him to carry the assignments that Plekanec does and he's going to get exposed. I think Eller is a special player but he's about a year away from being a complete beast.
He is a good 2-3 years away (if he keeps progressing that is) from having the skills to take on the work that Plek is doing.....

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02-19-2012, 03:37 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
If your preoccupation with replacing Desharnais is getting in the way of your life, maybe you should get a hobby or go for a walk. I don't understand why we can't get excited that we have a player who is playing well and surpassing expectations.
I think you need to go back and re-read
I'm glad he's doing great and all and that he is productive

My issue is with the posters that want him playing with not one but two power forwards AND then saying dump pleks and get a BIG #1 center to insulate DD.
If that's the case. why not keep pleks as he is a better shut down guy and I don't need to go to all those lengths?

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02-19-2012, 03:40 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Sargent Pepper View Post
I think this is a solid analysis. It is what I was saying earlier by some players bringing more to the table.....some players are far more useful, even if DD has more points.

I dont know many DD type players in the league right now but Lebeau, Comrie are decent example.....

As for Richards, I would take him over DD as a hockey player....but not with his contract....I agree with that....
Honestly (as much as I don't want to be a huge homer) from what I've read(advanced stats and all), the gap isn't that big.

As easy as it is to overrate DD while looking at his point totals, it's also pretty easy to underrate him based on other things (his defence, his size...).

He's a legitimate offensive talent, like I said previously, used right he could easily get 70 pts +. The thing a lot of people don't see is that to "use him rightly" we need those tough minutes center that do the things nobody cares about because they are invisible on a stat sheet, this is where the DD>Plek comments become annoying.

But DD is legitimately good at what he does, I wouldn't put a ceilling on his possible offensive production.

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02-19-2012, 03:44 PM
  #266
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Honestly (as much as I don't want to be a huge homer) from what I've read(advanced stats and all), the gap isn't that big.

As easy as it is to overrate DD while looking at his point totals, it's also pretty easy to underrate him based on other things (his defence, his size...).

He's a legitimate offensive talent, like I said previously, used right he could easily get 70 pts +. The thing a lot of people don't see is that to "use him rightly" we need those tough minutes center that do the things nobody cares about because they are invisible on a stat sheet, this is where the DD>Plek comments become annoying.

But DD is legitimately good at what he does, I wouldn't put a ceilling on his possible offensive production.
Well that is highly debatable. While DD has slightly more points, the others, for the most part, bring better speed, more size and are for the most part much better at the D thing.....

To me, the debate is not about DD vs. Plek. I want to keep them both as I said earlier.....and add a real #1 center as well.....I do not hate DD as some has suggested but I do not buy in the hype they have created around DD either.....

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02-19-2012, 03:45 PM
  #267
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Refreshingly intelligent post, and frankly becoming one of my favorite posters on this board. Good job.
Thanks. I'm kind of new to the whole advanced stats thing (but since I've always loved two-way players it was a natural fit, still have lots things to learn though) so it's great to know I managed to express myself well.

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02-19-2012, 03:46 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Sargent Pepper View Post
I think this is a solid analysis. It is what I was saying earlier by some players bringing more to the table.....some players are far more useful, even if DD has more points.

I dont know many DD type players in the league right now but Lebeau, Comrie are decent example.....

As for Richards, I would take him over DD as a hockey player....but not with his contract....I agree with that....
I think you are both missing the issue. Our 5"9 (ya right) center who was supose to be ECHL fodder has worked to improve his game at every single level of hockey, in every single different league. That tells me he has a skill that is not teachable. HOCKEY SENSE, more specifically offensive awareness. The ability to adapt and grow your game at every single level can't be overlooked. DD is not this teams savior, he doesn't have to be. All DD has to do is keep working on his game like he always has. Sorry I can't talk trash about a guy who works hard and overcomes all odds in 3 different leagues while making $850,000.

To recap:

1) Overcomes odds in 3 different leauges while being told he couldn't make it.

2) Has adjusted to every league he has played in with time becoming extremely effective.

3) 43 points in 59 games NHL this season while making $850,000


I just can't talk trash in any way to our 0.73 PPG $850,000 cap hit forward, when hes making (if ever) huge $$ then the knocks on his weaknesses would be better warranted. As it stands now I would be happy if some of our big $$ players played even as good as Desharnais.

Sure some players you might think are "More useful" (which is subjective) but I don't think our blame should fall on the guy playing his role far above expectations.

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02-19-2012, 03:46 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Sargent Pepper View Post
He is a good 2-3 years away (if he keeps progressing that is) from having the skills to take on the work that Plek is doing.....
I would think so too, I was being generous. I think he's about a year away from starting to breakout, by the end of next year we might have an idea on just how good he could be. Players like that need time.

What's funny is one of the suggested big Cs to insulate DD is Jeff Carter. That's classic because if anything Plekanec's defensive presencehas been a huge help for Desharnais, and a mediocre defender like Carter with effort issues would make Desharnais' job 100 times more difficult. If anything Carter would be nice to pair with DD (a poor man's St-Louis-Stamkos anyone?), but if you replaced Pleks with Carter you'd have to overhaul the entire forward line, because Carter needs wingers who know how to pass. Playing him with someone like Gionta or Bourque would be a disaster.

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02-19-2012, 03:50 PM
  #270
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Well that is highly debatable. While DD has slightly more points, the others, for the most part, bring better speed, more size and are for the most part much better at the D thing.....

To me, the debate is not about DD vs. Plek. I want to keep them both as I said earlier.....and add a real #1 center as well.....I do not hate DD as some has suggested but I do not buy in the hype they have created around DD either.....
Personally I don't care that much if DD is small, especially with the size we have on the wings. And Richards ain't what he used to be on D, hasn't been for a while.

Edit: I don't watch him alot but from what I've read he's a soft minutes guy.

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02-19-2012, 03:52 PM
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I think you are both missing the issue. Our 5"9 (ya right) center who was supose to be ECHL fodder has worked to improve his game at every single level of hockey, in every single different league. That tells me he has a skill that is not teachable. HOCKEY SENSE, more specifically offensive awareness. The ability to adapt and grow your game at every single level can't be overlooked. DD is not this teams savior, he doesn't have to be. All DD has to do is keep working on his game like he always has. Sorry I can't talk trash about a guy who works hard and overcomes all odds in 3 different leagues while making $850,000.

To recap:

1) Overcomes odds in 3 different leauges while being told he couldn't make it.

2) Has adjusted to every league he has played in with time becoming extremely effective.

3) 43 points in 59 games NHL this season while making $850,000


I just can't talk trash in any way to our 0.73 PPG $850,000 cap hit forward, when hes making (if ever) huge $$ then the knocks on his weaknesses would be better warranted. As it stands now I would be happy if some of our big $$ players played even as good as Desharnais.

Sure some players you might think are "More useful" (which is subjective) but I don't think our blame should fall on the guy playing his role far above expectations.
This was said previously and I do not disagree. The debate is not about whether is overcame adversity or what is CAP is......it is about him being:

1. Legitimacy of DD being ranked with A list players by the OP
2. DD being a legitimate #1 Center
3. What skills does DD actually bring to the table....
4. Some have mentioned that this was a Kudos post for DD

All posts I have seen here are around these 4 subjects...from what I can tell...


Last edited by Sargent Pepper*: 02-19-2012 at 03:58 PM.
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02-19-2012, 03:52 PM
  #272
Kjell Dahlin
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Originally Posted by EllertoKostitsynGoal View Post
Honestly (as much as I don't want to be a huge homer) from what I've read(advanced stats and all), the gap isn't that big.

As easy as it is to overrate DD while looking at his point totals, it's also pretty easy to underrate him based on other things (his defence, his size...).

He's a legitimate offensive talent, like I said previously, used right he could easily get 70 pts +. The thing a lot of people don't see is that to "use him rightly" we need those tough minutes center that do the things nobody cares about because they are invisible on a stat sheet, this is where the DD>Plek comments become annoying.

But DD is legitimately good at what he does, I wouldn't put a ceilling on his possible offensive production.
Almost no one is saying that (1) Desharnais is the sole reason behind our first line success and/or (2) Desharnais > Plekanec.

And almost everyone understands the "use him rightly" notion.

Desharnais, a guy in his first complete NHL season, is doing a great job on our first line and Plekanec still is our best centre.

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02-19-2012, 03:57 PM
  #273
Sargent Pepper*
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Originally Posted by EllertoKostitsynGoal View Post
Personally I don't care that much if DD is small, especially with the size we have on the wings. And Richards ain't what he used to be on D, hasn't been for a while.

Edit: I don't watch him alot but from what I've read he's a soft minutes guy.
He may not be the God of D as he once was, but the few times I watched him, he was still being used in D roles and seemed proficient at it. Not sure what metrics to use to express that though....

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02-19-2012, 03:58 PM
  #274
danisonfire
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Originally Posted by Sargent Pepper View Post
This was said previously and I do not disagree. The debate is not about whether is overcame adversity or what is CAP is......it is about him being:

1. Legitimacy of DD being ranked with A list players by the OP
2. DD being a legitimate #1 Center
3. What skills does DD actually bring to the table....
4. Some have mentioned that this was a Kudos post for DD

All posts I have seen here are around these 3 subjects...from what I can tell...
To your points:

1) Laughable, you are correct.

2) I honestly think 2-3rd line is more realistic, but with his history of growing his game 1st is a long shot, but who knows.

3) HOCKEY IQ, Passing, and to be honest many other areas about his game are slowly increasing (Might have to do with him being told his whole life to give up and him working through it). The first part, IQ is what I feel is making him able to adjust and grow in each league. When you look at him on paper you are correct, nothing really jumps out as Gamebreaking, but his awareness mixed with passing makes him effective.

DD just needs to keep growing his game and working hard, thats all anyone can ask from him.

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02-19-2012, 04:01 PM
  #275
Undertakerqc
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I would think so too, I was being generous. I think he's about a year away from starting to breakout, by the end of next year we might have an idea on just how good he could be. Players like that need time.

What's funny is one of the suggested big Cs to insulate DD is Jeff Carter. That's classic because if anything Plekanec's defensive presencehas been a huge help for Desharnais, and a mediocre defender like Carter with effort issues would make Desharnais' job 100 times more difficult. If anything Carter would be nice to pair with DD (a poor man's St-Louis-Stamkos anyone?), but if you replaced Pleks with Carter you'd have to overhaul the entire forward line, because Carter needs wingers who know how to pass. Playing him with someone like Gionta or Bourque would be a disaster.
You play Carter next year with Galagher and with Bourque or a better winger you can get thrue free agency. And Plekanec defensive qualities are overrated. I look at his plus minus rating in his career... not impressive.

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