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Old
02-19-2012, 11:50 PM
  #51
CRDragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Either way, I think the spirit of the rule is to stop people from gaining an unfair advantage in games played. Counting Sunday as part of the week prior would go against the spirit of that rule and should probably be changed immediately. Otherwise a person can get a bunch of extra starts every 2 weeks.

Doesn't make sense to me to punish him for doing something that in no way affects the league and gains him no advantage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by parabola View Post
Technically it doesn't effect this week. Either way that would be 3 adds for this week + 3 adds for "next" week... So if he isn't in violation this week he cant do anything else next week.
**** boys, stop making things so complicated. We clearly had a discussion about Sundays counting or not before the voting began, and we chose to have Sunday COUNTING for the week. So why are we opening this up for discussion?

I will discuss this issue with CCF and we'll go from there.

However, I think he's still punishable because he has exceeded the spot start violation, amidst all of these additions.

He had Greening for less than 48 hours, played him and dropped him within 48 hours of playing him.
Same with Desharnais.


Last edited by CRDragon: 02-19-2012 at 11:56 PM.
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02-19-2012, 11:53 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRDragon View Post
**** boys, stop making things so complicated.
I will discuss this issue with CCF and we'll go from there.

However, I think he's still punishable because he has exceeded the spot start violation, amidst all of these additions.

He had Greening for less than 48 hours, played him and dropped him within 48 hours of playing him.
Same with Desharnais.
He had Desharnais on Thu, Fri, Sat, and Sun. He had Greening on Tue and Wed. 1 spot start per week is allowed, I believe.

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02-19-2012, 11:58 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
He had Desharnais on Thu, Fri, Sat, and Sun. He had Greening on Tue and Wed. 1 spot start per week is allowed, I believe.
Desharnais played on Friday.
Dropping him on Sunday is more or less within 48 hours...how accurate are we going?

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02-20-2012, 12:05 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRDragon View Post
Desharnais played on Friday.
Dropping him on Sunday is more or less within 48 hours...how accurate are we going?
Just seems silly to penalize someone who had a player on their roster for 4 days and 2 games that's more than half a week. That's my personal opinion.

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02-20-2012, 12:07 AM
  #55
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We'll wait for SK's response on yahoo boards (our league boards).

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02-20-2012, 12:12 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRDragon View Post
We'll wait for SK's response on yahoo boards (our league boards).
I don't think that's made clear in the CBA.

Quote:
Spot starts are defined as picking up a player, starting the player in a game within 48 hours of being acquired, and releasing the player within 48 hours.
That to me sounds like 48 hours as of the time you acquired the player, rather than 48 hours as of the time you started the player. (And either way, it was 48.5 hours when SK released Desharnais. If we're going to put hours in there, then we should probably be accurate about it.)

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02-20-2012, 01:09 AM
  #57
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that seems like a pretty clear cut case of breaking the rules.

my team sucks. I am having no fun.

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02-20-2012, 02:38 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I don't think that's made clear in the CBA.
You might as well be SK's lawyer.

I am just trying to keep everyone working within the rules as much as possible. This is much more complicated than it needs to be.
SK's running an extremely fine line if you call it "48.5 hours"

I call it, the game runs from 4-6:30pm EST...and SK dropped him within 48 hours of that game ending, which is 46 hours if you want to be exact. The CBA does not define when the hour starts to count (whether beginning of the game, or end of the game).


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02-20-2012, 04:00 AM
  #59
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I'm not posting on the board for another couple weeks, trying to avoid any more issues and I'll leave it at that.

I was under the impression (as were a couple others I guess?) that adds/drops on Sunday did not count towards any week for the add/drop limit...and if I'm wrong then would they not count for next week since the drops come into effect for Monday? In which case I'd be at 2/3 for next week which I can deal with if that's the case...

As for the streaming I knew I streamed with Greening but Desharnais I picked up Wednesday, had him for 2 days, he played Friday at 4 PST and I dropped him Sunday around 5PST. I wanted to wait to drop him until around 6:30 in case the rule was from the end of the game not the start time of the game (I honestly was not sure), but I had to go to work from 5-12:30 (just got home) and I wanted to have Chimmy in the lineup for tomorrow's game if I was gonna pick him up for the week. So I knew I'd have to do it before work an doing it after would hurt my team...

Anyways, that's my explanation for both 'offenses' but I honestly do not think I have violated any rules here, I was watching the streaming and I have made Sunday adds/drops in the past few weeks I believe which may have taken me over the 3 add limit but no one has said anything, again maybe I'm wrong about that...

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02-20-2012, 04:05 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SelKesler View Post
I'm not posting on the board for another couple weeks, trying to avoid any more issues and I'll leave it at that.

I was under the impression (as were a couple others I guess?) that adds/drops on Sunday did not count towards any week for the add/drop limit...and if I'm wrong then would they not count for next week since the drops come into effect for Monday? In which case I'd be at 2/3 for next week which I can deal with if that's the case...

As for the streaming I knew I streamed with Greening but Desharnais I picked up Wednesday, had him for 2 days, he played Friday at 4 PST and I dropped him Sunday around 5PST. I wanted to wait to drop him until around 6:30 in case the rule was from the end of the game not the start time of the game (I honestly was not sure), but I had to go to work from 5-12:30 (just got home) and I wanted to have Chimmy in the lineup for tomorrow's game if I was gonna pick him up for the week. So I knew I'd have to do it before work an doing it after would hurt my team...

Anyways, that's my explanation for both 'offenses' but I honestly do not think I have violated any rules here, I was watching the streaming and I have made Sunday adds/drops in the past few weeks I believe which may have taken me over the 3 add limit but no one has said anything, again maybe I'm wrong about that...
Alright, thanks for the information.
Thought you were banned from the boards, but I guess you just had your PM and some other things restricted. I was misinformed.

I will discuss with CCF regarding the issue and have an official announcement.

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02-20-2012, 04:06 AM
  #61
Balls Mahoney
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Hey Sel, read the league message board.

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02-20-2012, 04:33 AM
  #62
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SK, I just want to let you know if Sunday adds are "in fact" adds for the following week, I suggest you don't add anyone this week.

It would either put you in violation for the week we just had...or the one we will be having.

Brock, if you have time, please update the CBA.
It makes sense that Sunday adds are for the following week, make a clarification about it.

With this case...we need to define when the "48 hours" begin after a player plays the game. (Whether we count it at the beginning of the game or at the end of the game) This is because its literally the difference between spot starting or not spot starting.


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02-20-2012, 04:40 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balls Mahoney View Post
Hey Sel, read the league message board.
On yahoo? What about it..

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02-20-2012, 05:03 AM
  #64
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Also I don't plan on making anymore adds right now although I was looking at a possible one later in the week therefore I need clarification on Hornqvist...does he count ass an add/drop even though I was just grabbing him to put him on the IR? If so I just won't make any changes this week.

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02-20-2012, 08:45 AM
  #65
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My take:

Regarding the spot start rule. I think a player is acquired or dropped when Yahoo counts that effective. That is to say, at midnight PST. I don't think you can count a player as acquired at noon on Friday if he's still not available to play at 7pm that day. Likewise, I don't think you can count a player as dropped at noon on Sunday when you still have the option to play him at 7pm that evening. With that in mind, I would view 'Sunday' adds as taking effect at 12:00am on Monday morning, and thus part of the following week. It also means that the 48 hour clock starts ticking at 12:00am following the managers addition of the player (i.e. when he shows up on your roster). In this case, Desharnais was added at 12:00am on Friday morning. His drop was effective at 12:00am Monday morning. By using the midnight PST add/drop times, we will never run into a case where the start/end of a game matters (since all games are done by midnight PST). In this case, since Desharnais was on his roster for more than 48 hours after the Friday night game (all day Saturday and Sunday), then he would not be considered a spot start.

Regarding the maximum of 3 adds. We definitely agreed that Sundays would count. I know, because I pushed hard for them to be excluded (since it's the start of a fresh week) and lost that argument. However, I'm not sure that we ever specified which week they would be included in. However, given my argument for adds/drops being effective after midnight the following morning, this would mean that if a manager picks up a player, that add/drop isn't actually counted until the following morning. In the case of an add on Sunday, this means the add counts at 12am Monday morning.

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02-20-2012, 08:48 AM
  #66
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As for adding an injured player, and then adding another player immediately after, I would still consider that one instance. The rule is regarding add/drops. To me that has to involve an add and a drop (otherwise we should have said 6 add/drops; 3 adds and 3 drops). In this case, he dropped 1 player, and added 2 players. With only 1 drop, it only counts as one add/drop in my eyes. I think this is a lot more ambiguous though, and would say the rule as written is pretty open to interpretation. In a case like that, I'd say the right measure is to give it a pass this time and clarify the ambiguity. FYI, the rule added was:
Are you in favour of adding the following to the already existing add/drop and streaming rules:

Each manager is allotted a maximum of three add/drops per week. Add/drops in the case of player injury do not count towards the weekly limit. The add/drop limit will reset each week on Monday at 12:00:01 am PST.

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02-20-2012, 08:54 AM
  #67
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Here's my proposed wording for clarification. I've bolded the modifcations I made:
Part 1 – Add/Drops cap
a. Teams will be granted a maximum of 1 skater spot start per week, and 2 goalie spot starts per week. Spot starts are defined as picking up a player, starting the player in a game within 48 hours of being acquired, and releasing the player within 48 hours of that game's finish.
b. If the player being dropped is expected to be scratched (due to injury or coaches decision – an external source is needed for verification), then the replacement player will not be considered a spot start even if they otherwise meet the criteria in (a).
c. Each manager is allotted a maximum of three add/drops per week. Add/drops in the case of player injury do not count towards the weekly limit. To count as an add/drop the manager must both drop a player from his lineup and add a replacement player. Simply adding a player (without dropping another) does not count as an add/drop. The add/drop limit will reset each week on Monday at 12:00:01 am PST.
d. For the purposes of this section, adds/drops are considered to be effective at the time that they show up on the Yahoo roster (i.e. at midnight PST following the add/drop request made by the manager).


Last edited by BrockH: 02-20-2012 at 09:05 AM.
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02-20-2012, 08:57 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRDragon View Post
You might as well be SK's lawyer.

I am just trying to keep everyone working within the rules as much as possible. This is much more complicated than it needs to be.
SK's running an extremely fine line if you call it "48.5 hours"

I call it, the game runs from 4-6:30pm EST...and SK dropped him within 48 hours of that game ending, which is 46 hours if you want to be exact. The CBA does not define when the hour starts to count (whether beginning of the game, or end of the game).
I'm being his lawyer because this is something that I've come preciously close to breaking in the past and the only reason I haven't is because I'm usually too lazy to actually go through with it. I, for example, didn't realize that the "within 48 hours" meant within 48 hours of the game. Brock's revised wording helps in that regard and makes sense to me. Chances are I'm going to start getting closer to the add/drop limit and spot start limit as we near the playoffs so I obviously want to know what I can and can't do.

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02-20-2012, 09:04 AM
  #69
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Here's some proposed wording changes for Article 9 to reflect the commissioners having the first call. It was a bit more of an overhaul so it's not just a case of bolding added stuff:

ARTICLE 9: DISCIPLINARY ACTIONS
a. Any league member that violates the rules or spirit set out in this CBA will be subject to discipline at the discretion of the commissioners.
b. Any league member can file a complaint with the commissioners for their review.
c. The commissioners’ decision will be open to formal appeal. Such an appeal should be posted in the HFBoards thread in a professional manner, and will be reviewed by the tribunal.
d. In cases where there is a conflict of interest, tribunal members will recuse themselves and be replaced by a league member. The league member will be selected by the remaining tribunal members. Tribunal members should avoid discussing the penalty until they have formed a complete panel.
e. The three member panel must reach a majority decision. In a case where all 3 panel members are split, then all 3 options will be put forward for a league vote (the penalized party and tribunal members excluded from the vote). Once a decision has been reached the panel’s decision will be binding and without appeal except in cases where there is grievance filed due to a conflict of interest.
f. A grievance may be raised against the tribunal only if impartiality is concerned. If such a grievance is raised, it is to be done via a posting in the HFBoards thread in a professional manner.
g. The commissioners shall jointly determine the validity of the grievance. A grievance is accepted unless the commissioners unanimously reject it (i.e. if one commissioner sees it’s merit, then it is considered valid).
h. If the party filing the grievance believes that both commissioners are also in a conflict of interest, then they must state so in their initial filing (i.e. before the commissioners pass their ruling), in which case the grievance will bypass both the tribunal and the commissioners and go to a league vote.
i. In a case such as (f), the party filing the grievance must propose their own outcome. This is to be part of their grievance filing. Once the grievance has been posted, all league members except for the accused and the 3-member panel will have 48 hours to publically vote in the forum thread. The vote will be either for the panel, in which case the ruling is upheld, or for the accused, in which case their proposed alternative penalty (if any) would be used.
j. In the case of (h), the voters will be directed to vote for the accused’s alternate penalty if and only if they perceive a conflict of interest and believe the accused has proposed the more reasonable penalty. The purpose of a grievance is not to seek a second opinion because you don’t like the panel’s decision. It is only to be used in a case where a conflict of interest existed and the panel members failed to recuse themselves, resulting in a biased decision.

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02-20-2012, 09:08 AM
  #70
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I think the above rewording covers the rule changes we've voted on so far that are effective this season. Let me know if I missed anything. Updated CBA is attached.
Attached Files
File Type: doc 2011 Fantasy Hockey CBA - Revised Feb21.doc‎ (227.5 KB, 3 views)

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02-20-2012, 09:29 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCF23 View Post
Housekeeping...



If the commissioners deem a rule has been broken and punishment is necessary, the commissioners will suggest a punishment. At that time, the offending party will have a chance to appeal the punishment. There will be a statement made from the offending party as to why he feels the punishment is too severe (or not deserved at all) after which the tribunal will be given the power to either uphold the commissioners ruling, lessen the penalty, or wipe the penalty out altogether.

That proposed rule change has passed by a 12-0 vote.

and...

Are you in favour of adding one utility slot effective next season?

That proposed rule change has also passed by a 9-3 vote.
Hang on there...the second change should be effective with the 2013-2014 season, not next year. Here was the original wording in the CBA that I was supposed to modify the current one to reflect (see thread Part II posts 15 & 17):
Quote:
ARTICLE 2: Scoring & Settings
a. The league will be administered and scored via Yahoo Fantasy Sports.
b. All Yahoo settings will remain as per the previous year’s settings unless otherwise stated.
c. Any change to the league’s scoring or roster settings will require a two-thirds majority vote. This can be initiated by any league member provided he has two supporters when bringing forth the motion (so basically to call a vote, three people have to put forth the motion for change).
d. If a change to the scoring or settings is voted in, the changes will come into effect a minimum of 1 year following the next keeper submission. For example, if a change is to be put in place for the 2012-2013 season, then it must be voted on and approved prior keeper list submission deadline for 2011-2012 draft (which, per current CBA guidelines, would be 3 days before the 2011-12 draft).
e. Where new Yahoo settings open up previously unavailable setting options, these settings can be put into place for the immediate season provided that they are not deemed to have a long-term strategic impact. Such changes or settings adjustments will be determined informally via the hfboards forum discussion until a reasonable consensus is reached.
f. If a dispute arises under section (e), there are two avenues of appeal:
i. If a league member feels the change has a long-term strategic impact, they can motion for the change in settings to follow the implementation period described in section (d) (i.e. rather than for the forthcoming season). Any one member can bring such a motion, and it will lead to a vote. In this case, if one-third (33.3%) of the league agrees that the change has long-term strategic impact, the rule change will be implemented per section (d) in a later season.
ii. If a league member feels that a consensus has not been adequately reached, then they can table the decision to a vote by acquiring two supporters, whereby all options will be presented (any member can present an option) and each member will cast a ranked vote. The result will be determined using the instant run-off method. That is to say, if there are 3 options on the ballot, then members will rank their preference from first to third. In the first round of counting, only first place votes are considered. Whichever option is in last is removed, and those members who chose it with their first choice will have their vote default to their secondary choice. Members need not rank all options – if all ranked options on a ballot are eliminated, then that ballot is considered to have abstained. In this manner, the vote is narrowed down to the top 2 options and the winning option will have true majority support.
This rule change has a strategic impact in my opinion. It devalues wingers and increases the value of centers because there are now more slots so having to bench a center is less of an issue (you can run with 3 elite centers and never bench any of them). I want the extra year to adjust my strategy (e.g. move one of or possibly both Perry & Ovechkin).

We voted to change from 8 keepers to 7 before the 2011-2012 draft which is why that rule change goes into effect next season.

If needed, please consider this my formal appeal for a league vote. If 33.3% of the league feels that the addition of a utility slot has a strategic impact, it should not be in-place until the 2013-14 season.


Last edited by BrockH: 02-20-2012 at 09:44 AM.
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02-20-2012, 09:42 AM
  #72
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Updated CBA with the included CBA change guidelines and scoring section that was meant to be added. It needs some work on formatting but I think everything is in there. Bottom line is, per 1 version of the CBA you need a unanimous vote during the season to change the CBA (and didn't get it). Per the other version (which I believe was the agreed upon version, although the change was never implemented) you need a 2/3s vote, but it doesn't go into effect until after the next draft if it has a strategic impact. Either way, this change shouldn't be in place next year.

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02-20-2012, 09:43 AM
  #73
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Forgot to attach it. Also, sorry for the spam posts...got started on the CBA stuff and wanted to finish it. It's 2am now, so I'm going to bed. Hopefully everything I said makes sense and seems reasonable, look forward to reading the feedback in the morning.
Attached Files
File Type: doc 2011 Fantasy Hockey CBA - Revised Feb21.doc‎ (229.0 KB, 5 views)

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02-20-2012, 11:43 AM
  #74
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counting to three has never been more complicated

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02-20-2012, 01:03 PM
  #75
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Adding an already injured player should count as one add.
Later you would just put him on IR and pick up another player which also should be another add. This is because in the future, when you activate the injured player, you will have to drop one player..which completes the add/drop.
I would recommend it be counted as 2 add/drops in a case like this.

Thanks Brock for updating and clarifying some clauses.

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