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Rangers interested in Nash: Part III

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Old
02-20-2012, 03:13 AM
  #101
gravey9
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In doing some research, the best case scenario for a deadline deal in which we acquire a scoring winger has to be a situation similar to the Mike Gartner Trade. Keep in mind, this is the BEST CASE SCENARIO. Gartner, already in his 30's, was still a force.

Rangers traded away young Ulf Dahlen and a 4th round pick for Gartner. Dahlen went on to have a very good career for many years. Gartner played roughly 4 full seasons with the Rangers and was traded away right before the team won in 94.

The trade hurt in that we gave away a very good young power forward in Dahlen. But did not rip up the entire team to add scoring punch. Though Gartner was in his early 30's at the time, he was still a perennial 40 goal guy. Rangers got a lot of production out of him and it only cost them one very good player and a pick that amounted to zilch. Gartner made the Power Play lethal. Added 15-20 goals by his mere presence. Nash will NOT do that. Different kind of a player. Just looking at scoring stats, Gartner topped 100 point mark many times in his career prior to NY. Nash is a 30/30 guy - a bit more of an all-around player, but he's no Ryan Callahan when it comes to being able to impact a game in 5 or 6 different ways.

So, the Gartner situation is a best case scenario, Of course, it occurred prior to the cap era. And Gartner, though very productive, still only played 4 years for the team. Dahlen, traded in 89-90, retired years later in 2002-3.

Other times Rangers have tried to add big time scoring at the deadline have not worked out nearly as well: Bobby Carpenter, Jari Kurri, Pavel Bure, Eric Lindros to name a few.

In fact, in 94, when the team actually made their run, they traded away a ton of scoring and youth. Among the players traded at the 94 deadline were Amonte, Weight, Gartner. Though the team won in 94, it pretty much crippled their future for a decade. A year later they traded Zubov for Nedved to help the lack of scoring/speed up front. And well, yeah...

A trade for Nash is really making a long term commitment in a pretty big way. It would, I think the trade has a decent chance of negatively impacting the chances of this team winning this year.

It's a toss up as to whether Nash greatly improves our chance of winning in future years. The finanical implications of the trade are not great down the road. We are not merely trading away 2-4 guys right now. But may have to lose another 2 homegrown players down the road in order to stay under the salary cap with Nash, Richards, Gabby, Henke under contract.

If we consider this trade with a level head, I'm just not sure it's the right move now. I certainly wouldn't bother getting into a bidding war with the Kings. Let them have Nash.

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02-20-2012, 03:34 AM
  #102
SnowblindNYR
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Originally Posted by Dorado View Post
Exactly . It makes me nuts when people on here are crowning as this great team when the NJD are only 8 points behind us and rolling lately . Don't be surprised if we hit the skids and they pass us . Not saying it will happen but the NJD play of late especially after HERBING US 2 x last month should not be discounted . Nor should ZP being a lock to leave . The league is going to do everything in it's power to keep NJ afloat and back on track much the same way it's done for PITT , PHO etc .
ZP
The Devils have TWO more ROW than the Canes and the same amount of ROW than Tampa. They're nothing special. Without the skills competition, I'm not sure they're even in the playoffs. The Pens are another team has greatly relied on the skills competition.

You seem to be more of a Devils fan than Rangers fan. I made some negative posts on this board, but EVERY post that I've seen is either a negative Rangers thread (because g0d forbid we beat a team in OT that took Boston during their hot streak to shootout, beat St. Louis, Detroit, and lost in a shootout to Columbus).

P.S. They're 9 points behind us and we have 1 game in hand. That's the second biggest gap for a division lead in the league. The biggest gap is the Canucks, but they play in a joke of a division and we play in the 2nd best.


Last edited by SnowblindNYR: 02-20-2012 at 03:42 AM.
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02-20-2012, 04:39 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by gravey9 View Post
You forgot:
Eric Lindros
There were actually stretches where Lindros played great for us. It's just that it was in 15 game stretches where he wasn't afraid to be concussed and then someone like Jason Doig would come along and Lindros would go back into his shell and play scared. (He probably shouldn't have been playing at all, honestly, but still. You can't play hockey scared.)

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02-20-2012, 04:54 AM
  #104
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Rather, Sather is fazed by Columbus’ asking price, believed to be Brandon Dubinsky, Ryan McDonagh or Michael Del Zotto, Boston College winger Chris Kreider and either a first-round pick or another of the Rangers’ top prospects.

McDonagh and Del Zotto are untouchables on the NHL roster, and Kreider is regarded as a can’t-miss prospect with a ceiling as high as those in an apartment in a Manhattan pre-war building.

It is unknown whether Sather has made a counter-proposal.
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...#ixzz1muzYGyXC

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02-20-2012, 05:07 AM
  #105
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Close this thread and never mention Nash again. Next target step forward please.

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02-20-2012, 05:08 AM
  #106
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If that's the asking price, it's insulting. Sure, Nash would be a nice addition, but not at his contract, not when giving up those assets.

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02-20-2012, 05:30 AM
  #107
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They want some combination of JVR,Schenn,Couturier,Bob from Philly. 2 of the 3 forwards,Bob and another asset

Dubinsky,Kreider,DZ or McD and a #1 pick/top prospect from the Rangers

Howson wants Rask from Boston. The rest of the package hasn't been leaked by the Bruins. Probably Hamilton or most definitely Hamilton. Another Bruins roster player. Plus another asset.

They want 4 assets for Nash plus have the team pick up the contract.

Would the Rangers give Nash 6 years at $7.8M if he was a group III in July? No chance. Nash re-signed in Columbus. He didn't give them a discount or give them a cap friendly hit. The Rangers made a huge deal about Richards needing to accept a cap hit below $7M. Remember the Larry Brooks columns from May and June. Rangers management used Brooks to get their message to Pat Morris and Richards.

LA needs Nash the most.

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02-20-2012, 05:58 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
They want some combination of JVR,Schenn,Couturier,Bob from Philly. 2 of the 3 forwards,Bob and another asset

Dubinsky,Kreider,DZ or McD and a #1 pick/top prospect from the Rangers

Howson wants Rask from Boston. The rest of the package hasn't been leaked by the Bruins. Probably Hamilton or most definitely Hamilton. Another Bruins roster player. Plus another asset.

They want 4 assets for Nash plus have the team pick up the contract.

Would the Rangers give Nash 6 years at $7.8M if he was a group III in July? No chance. Nash re-signed in Columbus. He didn't give them a discount or give them a cap friendly hit. The Rangers made a huge deal about Richards needing to accept a cap hit below $7M. Remember the Larry Brooks columns from May and June. Rangers management used Brooks to get their message to Pat Morris and Richards.

LA needs Nash the most.
Would CBJ even want Kreider?

He has to be signed before what, mid-june. If you are Chris Kreider, do you sign with CBJ or re-enter the draft?

I would do:
Dubinsky, Kreider, Erixon and -- a 2nd (would it be enough? I would give up a 1st too) -- for Nash.

One player. Two top prospects. A high pick.

For us:
Dubinsky is replaced by Nash on the roster. One rosterplayer out and one roster player in.

JT Miller will replace Dubinsky long-term too.

Chris Kreider, look, he is a great prospect and will become a good NHLer, but we shouldn't overrate him. There are no guarantees he will even become better than Hagelin. Seriously. For example, he is not a effective forechecker. Never has been. He got no natrual role on the PP, not atleast one in which he is better than what we got or will become.

Id love to keep him, but if CBJ think he will resign, he ought to have alot of value to them.

Tim Erixon is a very good prospect, but he won't save our PP and at LD we have:
McD
MDZ
Staal

And with the way Strålman have played -- we can afford to deal him.

Brad Richards we all like him and we all are a little afraid somewhere in the back of our heads that during the coming 8 years, his production could fall some which could put alot of pressure on him and if he doesn't have good linemates around him, he could get hurt from that pressure like previous FA's have in NY.

Well, flank him with Rich Nash and Ryan Callahan and we don't have to worry about ever again.

Marian Gaborik, how long will his groin hold up? Take away his scoring from this team this season, and you never know were we are at right now. You never now.

Farm:
Look at this roster:
Nash-Richards-Callahan
AA-Step-Gabby
Hags-Boyle-Prust
Fedtenko-Mitchell-Rupp
McD-Girardi
MDZ-Strålman
Staal-Sauer
Hank


A farm of:
JT Miller,
C Thomas,
D McIlrath,
J Fasth
,
is enough!

Cap-wise we are put in the squez for sure.

But so what, we have to deal one our D's for picks and prospects in a couple of years. 4 good D's is enough anyway. You don't need 7! We could still definitely keep the kids we want. We won't have to like dump McD, Stepan and/or MDZ because we don't have cap-space. We might loose some other guys, but look at the roster above! So what???

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02-20-2012, 06:30 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
I would do:
Dubinsky, Kreider, Erixon and -- a 2nd (would it be enough? I would give up a 1st too) -- for Nash.
That is just too much. If his cap hit had been 1.5-2 millions lower, fine, but that is just too much to give up for a guy that is not top ten in the leauge, with that cap hit imo.

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02-20-2012, 06:37 AM
  #110
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I really hope Tor does not get Nash . I don't want him at the cost of Kreider or Miller but Nash on Tor with , Kessel , Lupul , Grabo , Mcarthur , and Phaneuf would be a lethal PP and a lot of offense .

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02-20-2012, 07:17 AM
  #111
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Sigh, No more nash. Too expensive unless Glen tricks Howson

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02-20-2012, 07:45 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by gravey9 View Post
Gartner made the Power Play lethal. Added 15-20 goals by his mere presence. Nash will NOT do that. Different kind of a player. Just looking at scoring stats, Gartner topped 100 point mark many times in his career prior to NY. Nash is a 30/30 guy - a bit more of an all-around player, but he's no Ryan Callahan when it comes to being able to impact a game in 5 or 6 different ways.
Not that i disagree with the overall sentiment of your post, but just be careful when using stats to compare players from different eras. Mike Gartner was my favorite player as a kid, and Cally is my favorite current Ranger, but to put Nash on a level below them when just talking about production and/or impact on a game is a mistake.

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02-20-2012, 07:47 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Moosehead777 View Post
Wolski, Strahlman, Avery, Woywitka, Drury, will all be coming off the cap this summer. I would include Hagelin as a part of the trade along with Dubinsky.

All together, thats almost 14 million coming off the cap this summer and Nash's 7.8 million added on (if they make the move). The Cap can absolutely be managed.
First of all Avery isnt on the cap right now. Second Drury is still on the cap next season but its half of what it was this season. Stralman is an RFA and he will be signed or replaced by someone like Erixon.

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02-20-2012, 07:49 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Would CBJ even want Kreider?

He has to be signed before what, mid-june. If you are Chris Kreider, do you sign with CBJ or re-enter the draft?

I would do:
Dubinsky, Kreider, Erixon and -- a 2nd (would it be enough? I would give up a 1st too) -- for Nash.

One player. Two top prospects. A high pick.

For us:
Dubinsky is replaced by Nash on the roster. One rosterplayer out and one roster player in.
We have until August 15th, 2013 to sign Kreider.

That's too much to give up and likely leaves us with cap problems down the line.

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02-20-2012, 07:49 AM
  #115
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[QUOTE=Ola;44491533]Would CBJ even want Kreider?

He has to be signed before what, mid-june. If you are Chris Kreider, do you sign with CBJ or re-enter the draft?

I would do:
Dubinsky, Kreider, Erixon and -- a 2nd (would it be enough? I would give up a 1st too) -- for Nash.

Take off Kreider and replace him with Thomas and add a 3rd and you have a deal, IMO we can't lose Kreider for all we now he could be a superstar and I don't want to risk losing him in a package for Nash.

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02-20-2012, 07:50 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Would CBJ even want Kreider?

He has to be signed before what, mid-june. If you are Chris Kreider, do you sign with CBJ or re-enter the draft?

I would do:
Dubinsky, Kreider, Erixon and -- a 2nd (would it be enough? I would give up a 1st too) -- for Nash.

One player. Two top prospects. A high pick.

For us:
Dubinsky is replaced by Nash on the roster. One rosterplayer out and one roster player in.

JT Miller will replace Dubinsky long-term too.

Chris Kreider, look, he is a great prospect and will become a good NHLer, but we shouldn't overrate him. There are no guarantees he will even become better than Hagelin. Seriously. For example, he is not a effective forechecker. Never has been. He got no natrual role on the PP, not atleast one in which he is better than what we got or will become.

Id love to keep him, but if CBJ think he will resign, he ought to have alot of value to them.

Tim Erixon is a very good prospect, but he won't save our PP and at LD we have:
McD
MDZ
Staal

And with the way Strålman have played -- we can afford to deal him.

Brad Richards we all like him and we all are a little afraid somewhere in the back of our heads that during the coming 8 years, his production could fall some which could put alot of pressure on him and if he doesn't have good linemates around him, he could get hurt from that pressure like previous FA's have in NY.

Well, flank him with Rich Nash and Ryan Callahan and we don't have to worry about ever again.

Marian Gaborik, how long will his groin hold up? Take away his scoring from this team this season, and you never know were we are at right now. You never now.

Farm:
Look at this roster:
Nash-Richards-Callahan
AA-Step-Gabby
Hags-Boyle-Prust
Fedtenko-Mitchell-Rupp
McD-Girardi
MDZ-Strålman
Staal-Sauer
Hank


A farm of:
JT Miller,
C Thomas,
D McIlrath,
J Fasth
,
is enough!

Cap-wise we are put in the squez for sure.

But so what, we have to deal one our D's for picks and prospects in a couple of years. 4 good D's is enough anyway. You don't need 7! We could still definitely keep the kids we want. We won't have to like dump McD, Stepan and/or MDZ because we don't have cap-space. We might loose some other guys, but look at the roster above! So what???
Take off Kreider and replace him with Thomas and add a 3rd and you have a deal, IMO we can't lose Kreider for all we now he could be a superstar and I don't want to risk losing him in a package for Nash.

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02-20-2012, 07:55 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Dorado View Post
Exactly . It makes me nuts when people on here are crowning as this great team when the NJD are only 8 points behind us and rolling lately . Don't be surprised if we hit the skids and they pass us . Not saying it will happen but the NJD play of late especially after HERBING US 2 x last month should not be discounted . Nor should ZP being a lock to leave . The league is going to do everything in it's power to keep NJ afloat and back on track much the same way it's done for PITT , PHO etc .
ZP
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
The Devils have TWO more ROW than the Canes and the same amount of ROW than Tampa. They're nothing special. Without the skills competition, I'm not sure they're even in the playoffs. The Pens are another team has greatly relied on the skills competition.

You seem to be more of a Devils fan than Rangers fan. I made some negative posts on this board, but EVERY post that I've seen is either a negative Rangers thread (because g0d forbid we beat a team in OT that took Boston during their hot streak to shootout, beat St. Louis, Detroit, and lost in a shootout to Columbus).

P.S. They're 9 points behind us and we have 1 game in hand. That's the second biggest gap for a division lead in the league. The biggest gap is the Canucks, but they play in a joke of a division and we play in the 2nd best.
Just to add to what you said Snowblind. On 2/1 the Rangers were 10 points ahead of the Devils with a game in hand and 2/20 they are 9 points ahead still with a game in hand. So as much as the Devil's have been "rolling lately" they made up a whole 1 points in 9 games played.

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02-20-2012, 08:02 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Moosehead777 View Post
Wolski, Strahlman, Avery, Woywitka, Drury, will all be coming off the cap this summer. I would include Hagelin as a part of the trade along with Dubinsky.

All together, thats almost 14 million coming off the cap this summer and Nash's 7.8 million added on (if they make the move). The Cap can absolutely be managed.
This is a common mistake. You can't look at who's coming off the cap and assume you have that much money. Some players only count a prorated portion of their cap hit based on # of days on the roster (Avery, Stralman, Woywitka, Hagelin). Some players will be making more money next year than they did this year (MDZ, maybe Prust and Biron).

You have to look at who will still be here next year, not who's leaving, and how much they will be paid. You also have to look at the number of roster spots you have left to fill and make assumptions on who will fill them and how much they will cost.

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02-20-2012, 08:03 AM
  #119
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My god. There might only be five or six players in the league I'd move that package for, and Rick Nash is certainly not one of them.

McD, as we know, is a stud. I think Dubi is overrated on this board to some degree, but he's still a solid 2nd/3rd line player. If Kreider becomes half the player he has the potential to be he'll wind up being in Nash's class. That's not even addressing the 1st rounder!

Take a long walk off a short pier Columbus.

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02-20-2012, 08:13 AM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mullichicken25 View Post
the bolded has proven to be wrong time and time again yet it is ALWAYS brought up when talking about adding an underperforming player from another team

can someone please point me to an example in the last 20 years where a player came to the rangers and performed considerably above their career averages? i haven't looked up any stats but i can't think of any off the top of my head...i can however think of plenty that haven't.

I've heard/said that exact statement about the following players and without fail it was dead wrong everytime:

Gaborik
Richards
Gomez
Drury
Wolski
Lisin
Redden
Higgins
Zherdev
Frolov
Jokinen
Kotalik
McCabe
Shanahan
Naslund
Kalinin
Morris

people apparently think the lights in NYC have some sort of superman/yellow sun effect on hockey players....unfortunately its just not true
It's funny, that list.

Not one of those players were as talented as Nash is today when they were acquired.

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02-20-2012, 08:24 AM
  #121
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It's funny, that list.

Not one of those players were as talented as Nash is today when they were acquired.
I would say Gaborik is but the guy came here and tied his career high in goals his first season. I dont think anyone expected him to be better than he was in Minny just put up similar numbers.

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02-20-2012, 08:26 AM
  #122
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Just to add to what you said Snowblind. On 2/1 the Rangers were 10 points ahead of the Devils with a game in hand and 2/20 they are 9 points ahead still with a game in hand. So as much as the Devil's have been "rolling lately" they made up a whole 1 points in 9 games played.
Also, if not for a freakishly bizarre last minute bounce and a terrible decision to waive off a goal, the Rangers take at least 3 points out of the last 2 Devils games.

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02-20-2012, 08:27 AM
  #123
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I assume the leaked package is mostly posturing but that is insane from a Ranger point of view BEFORE even factoring in the contract. I would love to watch Nash and Richards but that asking price is obnoxious.

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02-20-2012, 08:31 AM
  #124
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If that is truly the asking price Sather needs to walk away. Nash is good, but overpaid and the Rangers have a great team ad great Team Chemistry.

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02-20-2012, 08:32 AM
  #125
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Nash, asked if this was a good showcase for him, says, "No, we're trying to win a game. I'll do everything I can to help our team win."

Please get on the plane and go back to Columbus we don't want you!

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