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TSN 990: As per a Habs executive they are NOT re-building

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Old
02-21-2012, 09:52 AM
  #251
Monctonscout
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
And then wait until he has no value left. Lose him for nothing and continue the cycle of mediocrity? No thanks.
It's not just about value.

When the team is doing well and making the playoffs, progressing...you can sign pretty good UFA's(see Cole).

When it's going the wrong direction you end up overpaying for UFA's(like Cammy Spacek Hamrlik etc) and creates a cap crunch.

When Gionta's contract expires, if he finishes his contract here, his value will be that he frees up 5 mil we can spend on another player...hopefully if the team is doing well it will be a good value.

Plus having him here 2 more years to help develop LeBlanc Gallagher Quailer Kristo Bournival etc has value. As much as Gill wasn't great other than PK he had a lot to do with PK's success and development, I'm sure he played a part last month after Pk's run in with Ladouceur, since then he's been very good.

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02-21-2012, 09:59 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by oilershabs View Post
you're blocked

gionta is our captain, we need leadership and experience in the dressing room dummy, plus he's been hurt all year and is havinfg ONE BAD SEASON
not to mention what he brings on the ice, goes to the dirty areas, feisty

bourque is a good player, yeah let's get rid of him for even though he produces and he's signed at a good salary
I may be sliding toward rebuild, but all these trade Gio posts. Get off my lawn. He's a superb player when healthy, and one of the best scorers we've had the last three years.

Total nose for the net, sneaky and dangerous, and clutch in PO.

Gio stays. Really, I want you to wash my car if you think he should be traded. And I don't have a car.

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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I dont hate Gionta. I see him for what he is......not what he was.

Lets look at reality. He is 33 years old and before his injury, he had 15 points (8 goals) in 31 games and was a -7. Add to that his size......5'7", 173 pounds.

He is not what this team needs now. An aging (yes, hard working with a great attitude) forward who is undersized and his scoring touch has diminished.

Time to thank Gionta for all that he did here and move on. No hate involved at all. Its business and this team needs to progress, not hang on in the hope that Gionta rebounds. And as far as leadership, Cole can take that role.
News flash: Habs don't throw away their Captain after 2 years, except for Turgeon, which was a joke. Where you from?


Last edited by Crimson Skorpion: 02-21-2012 at 12:07 PM.
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Old
02-21-2012, 10:07 AM
  #253
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News flash: Habs don't throw away their Captain after 2 years, except for Turgeon, which was a joke. Where you from?
And Keane. Another joke.

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02-21-2012, 10:18 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
And Keane. Another joke.
Knew someone was gonna mention that.

Are you agreeing or arguing? I can't tell...

I'm gonna ignore those ****** days, and say again: News flash: Habs don't throw away their Captain after 2 years. End of.

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02-21-2012, 10:21 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Knew someone was gonna mention that.

Are you agreeing or arguing? I can't tell...

I'm gonna ignore those ****** days, and say again: News flash: Habs don't throw away their Captain after 2 years. End of.
In agreement. Cole and Gionta are hard to the net players that provide quiet leadership on a team that needs to grow this in their young players.

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Old
02-21-2012, 10:28 AM
  #256
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Look ladies and germs, we're neither the team that made it to the ECF, nor are we the team that's bottom feeding for a lottery pick. What we are is a team with half the roster made up of 25-and-under players. The current Habs are not a finished product; they're a mostly-young team that got stung by an inexperienced defense core and hit two serious slumps. Like them or not, none of us have a clue just how good this team really is, and neither do the players. This young half is still developing and will not be the same next year. Eller, Desharnais and Pacioretty leaped forward this year; they may get better next season, and/or we may see another young guy bloom. Now, I'm not suggesting that we do nothing and wait for our young core to magically float us to the top of the conference. They're probably not good enough for that. But they are good enough to expect an improvement as they gain maturity and more NHL experience.

I guess the message here is that one season - good or bad - doesn't necessarily predict the next season. Ask New Jersey, Buffalo, Florida or New York if they expected to be where they currently are based on last year. Montreal definitely has work to do. Management has to complement our developing young half with a strong second half of the roster that maintains leadership and adds some needed talent, especially on defense. But we're not that far off. We've blown so many close games where the difference was one goal or five bad minutes. Think of how much difference another Eric Cole would've made; think what a difference another Gorges would've made in October. Think what a difference it'll make when those two theoretical players are teamed with 11 young guys with another year of NHL experience.

That's the likely outcome, whether we like this scenario or not. We're banking on the young half we already have, and then we're probably going to the bank to buy another key piece. Meanwhile, our investments continue to gain interest with two strong upcoming defensemen in Beaulieu and Tinordi, plus the chance for a great pick in the next draft. This isn't the formula for a first-place finish next year, but it's a legitimate step on the rebuilding path beyond being a bubble team.

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02-21-2012, 10:53 AM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
It's not just about value.

When the team is doing well and making the playoffs, progressing...you can sign pretty good UFA's(see Cole).

When it's going the wrong direction you end up overpaying for UFA's(like Cammy Spacek Hamrlik etc) and creates a cap crunch.

When Gionta's contract expires, if he finishes his contract here, his value will be that he frees up 5 mil we can spend on another player...hopefully if the team is doing well it will be a good value.

Plus having him here 2 more years to help develop LeBlanc Gallagher Quailer Kristo Bournival etc has value. As much as Gill wasn't great other than PK he had a lot to do with PK's success and development, I'm sure he played a part last month after Pk's run in with Ladouceur, since then he's been very good.
Having cap space does not mean you're able to sign another player. So many factors come in. I would trade Gionta for good value (A 1st and a prospect) and you wouldn't. I'm not saying trade him for peanuts. If some team out there is willing to pony up high value for him, then I'd sell him.

He's not a core player and that's all I'm interested in keeping right now. Core value players.

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Old
02-21-2012, 12:02 PM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
It's not just about value.

When the team is doing well and making the playoffs, progressing...you can sign pretty good UFA's(see Cole).
Cole came because we gave him a ton of cash and a longer term than anybody else would give him. That's what we usually do. The only difference is that Cole actually wound up earning what we're paying him to do.

As for us progressing... I don't see how that's the case. 88 points two years ago, 96 last year and another sub 90 season now. We're a bubble team most of the time and this season we dropped off the face of the earth. That is not progression.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
When it's going the wrong direction you end up overpaying for UFA's(like Cammy Spacek Hamrlik etc) and creates a cap crunch.

When Gionta's contract expires, if he finishes his contract here, his value will be that he frees up 5 mil we can spend on another player...hopefully if the team is doing well it will be a good value.
Instead of just 'hoping' that the team will be doing well by the time Gionta is gone, why not go out and actually do something to make us better? Again, we just sit back with silly short term moves and don't do what we need to do in order to build a winner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Plus having him here 2 more years to help develop LeBlanc Gallagher Quailer Kristo Bournival etc has value. As much as Gill wasn't great other than PK he had a lot to do with PK's success and development, I'm sure he played a part last month after Pk's run in with Ladouceur, since then he's been very good.
Sure it's good to have those guys, but why not try to get more elite talent for them to develop with? Doesn't make sense not to do this when our club is nowhere near a contending team.

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Old
02-21-2012, 02:24 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Cole came because we gave him a ton of cash and a longer term than anybody else would give him. That's what we usually do. The only difference is that Cole actually wound up earning what we're paying him to do.

As for us progressing... I don't see how that's the case. 88 points two years ago, 96 last year and another sub 90 season now. We're a bubble team most of the time and this season we dropped off the face of the earth. That is not progression.

Instead of just 'hoping' that the team will be doing well by the time Gionta is gone, why not go out and actually do something to make us better? Again, we just sit back with silly short term moves and don't do what we need to do in order to build a winner.

Sure it's good to have those guys, but why not try to get more elite talent for them to develop with? Doesn't make sense not to do this when our club is nowhere near a contending team.
You're making assumptions without facts to back them up.

Florida paid as much for Fleischmann and Buffalo the same for Leino as we paid for Cole, how do you know they were not going to pay more had we not signed him?

Brad Richards was offered more than NYR by multiple teams(including Montreal and Toronto) but chose to go there. Players don't just all go for the money. Some do but otyers will take the same or less to play on a contender(or preferred destination).

You are pretty naiive if you think UFA's always end up to the highest bidder.

No, you're right, 80 points or less this year is not progressing, but what you do starting next yaer has an impact on UFA's and current players wanting to stay. For the most part teams always missing the playoffs have a hard time keeping their top players and usually end up overpaying for UFA's.

Not sure where you get the "silly short term moves" crap, most of the recent moves have been to try and improve the team long term. Like getting Eller, keeping Price over Halak due to more upside, being more patient with young players vs rushing them during the Gainey years.

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02-21-2012, 02:35 PM
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
You're making assumptions without facts to back them up.

Florida paid as much for Fleischmann and Buffalo the same for Leino as we paid for Cole, how do you know they were not going to pay more had we not signed him?

Brad Richards was offered more than NYR by multiple teams(including Montreal and Toronto) but chose to go there. Players don't just all go for the money. Some do but otyers will take the same or less to play on a contender(or preferred destination).

You are pretty naiive if you think UFA's always end up to the highest bidder.

No, you're right, 80 points or less this year is not progressing, but what you do starting next yaer has an impact on UFA's and current players wanting to stay. For the most part teams always missing the playoffs have a hard time keeping their top players and usually end up overpaying for UFA's.

Not sure where you get the "silly short term moves" crap, most of the recent moves have been to try and improve the team long term. Like getting Eller, keeping Price over Halak due to more upside, being more patient with young players vs rushing them during the Gainey years.
I dont know if it was so much rushing them in the Gainey years as much as giving them the bums rush out of town.

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02-21-2012, 02:40 PM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
You're making assumptions without facts to back them up.

Florida paid as much for Fleischmann and Buffalo the same for Leino as we paid for Cole, how do you know they were not going to pay more had we not signed him?
First, I don't really care. Secondly, I don't see why they would. Up until this season Cole hasn't been that great man, he hasn't scored at a 30 goal pace since 2007. And at 33 now, he's still got a lot of years left on that contract. I was surprised we gave him that deal and I'd be even more surprised if anyone else would've given him that many years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Brad Richards was offered more than NYR by multiple teams(including Montreal and Toronto) but chose to go there. Players don't just all go for the money. Some do but otyers will take the same or less to play on a contender(or preferred destination).

You are pretty naiive if you think UFA's always end up to the highest bidder.?
Dude, you really need to learn to read.

As I said earlier... we can't attract top FAs because we don't build winning teams. That's why we don't get Brad Richards type guys and wind up with secondary players like Cole. Usually it's a disaster for us but this time Cole actually lived up to the deal (at least in the first year.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
No, you're right, 80 points or less this year is not progressing, but what you do starting next yaer has an impact on UFA's and current players wanting to stay. For the most part teams always missing the playoffs have a hard time keeping their top players and usually end up overpaying for UFA's.

Not sure where you get the "silly short term moves" crap, most of the recent moves have been to try and improve the team long term. Like getting Eller, keeping Price over Halak due to more upside, being more patient with young players vs rushing them during the Gainey years.
As I said above, he's made a few decent moves. Keeping Price was the right decision and Eller (while many including me, felt we should've gotten more) at least was a prospect he believed in. That gave me hope. Unfortunately it was false hope.

As has been correctly pointed out numerous times, he botched it from the beginning here and when it became obvious that we were in trouble PG just went from one desperate move (Campioli, Kaberle, Bourque, coaching fiascos) to another trying to salvage 8th place.

No long term thinking, no direction, just reactive stupid moves. It's been a mess. This year has been a gong show and I don't know why you keep defending a guy who's not improving the team and not showing any kind of forethought on the future.

Stop defending management for the sake of it. Open your eyes to what's actually going on. Defending your teams' every move is not good man. You've got to be more objective and THINK about the implications of the moves that he's making.

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02-21-2012, 02:46 PM
  #262
Agnostic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
You're making assumptions without facts to back them up.

Florida paid as much for Fleischmann and Buffalo the same for Leino as we paid for Cole, how do you know they were not going to pay more had we not signed him?Brad Richards was offered more than NYR by multiple teams(including Montreal and Toronto) but chose to go there. Players don't just all go for the money. Some do but otyers will take the same or less to play on a contender(or preferred destination).

You are pretty naiive if you think UFA's always end up to the highest bidder.

No, you're right, 80 points or less this year is not progressing, but what you do starting next yaer has an impact on UFA's and current players wanting to stay. For the most part teams always missing the playoffs have a hard time keeping their top players and usually end up overpaying for UFA's.

Not sure where you get the "silly short term moves" crap, most of the recent moves have been to try and improve the team long term. Like getting Eller, keeping Price over Halak due to more upside, being more patient with young players vs rushing them during the Gainey years.
Because Cole himself said that he had interest from a handful of teams, it came down to 2 teams - Montreal and Carolina.

Carolina offered a 3/$4M for a 12 million dollar deal, Montreal upped it to 4/$4.5M for a $18M deal. Cole admitted he would have gone to Carolina had they matched Montreal's offer but they refused.

so, not assumptions. Facts. When I find the link I will be sure to pass it to you.

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02-21-2012, 02:49 PM
  #263
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Drafting Forsberg could solve the problem of acquiring another top 6 forward

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole
Bourque - Plekanec - Gionta
LeBlanc - Eller - Forsberg
Moen - Geoffrion - White

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02-21-2012, 07:51 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by THE HOFF View Post
Yeah I miss hearing stories of him getting wrecked on the eve of some big games with his roomate ryder, their IQ was decent .... if you add them up to a grand total it should be at least 35.
I'd take a hungover Higgins over a sober Gomez any day....

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02-21-2012, 09:51 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
So because his production is down a bit over 30 games where he was out of the lineup twice and suddenly "his scoring touch has diminished"?

Funny how you twist the facts to match your argument.

Funny how you missed the point that I made about him not being what this team needs right now.

Love Gionta, trade him for what we can get for him now. I do not see him having a break-out season again in Montreal.

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02-21-2012, 09:57 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Knew someone was gonna mention that.

Are you agreeing or arguing? I can't tell...

I'm gonna ignore those ****** days, and say again: News flash: Habs don't throw away their Captain after 2 years. End of.
Flyers traded Mike Richards, their captain last year.

Hockey is a business, not some sentimental gathering of men on skates.

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02-21-2012, 10:00 PM
  #267
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Is anyone worried with the lack of scoring wingers on this team? Or in the system? Maybe u draft Forsberg instead of Grigorenko if hes the best player available.

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02-21-2012, 10:07 PM
  #268
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Is anyone worried with the lack of scoring wingers on this team? Or in the system? Maybe u draft Forsberg instead of Grigorenko if hes the best player available.
Scoring wingers? We have more than enough, though they're not elite.

Patches, Cole, Gionta, Akost, Bourque are all top6.

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02-21-2012, 10:10 PM
  #269
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We lack scoring wingers but we also lack scoring centers, which are key to having productive wingers (why CLB has tried desperately to get Nash a center).

And out of our best offensive prospects, all are wingers at the NHL level (Leblanc, Kristo, Gallagher)

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02-21-2012, 10:10 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Scoring wingers? We have more than enough, though they're not elite.

Patches, Cole, Gionta, Akost, Bourque are all top6.
Our wingers are atrocious at passing though. You need more than just goalscorers.

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