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Old
02-17-2012, 04:37 AM
  #26
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A low-round pick, preferably anywhere between 4th-6th.

Basically, I'm not a Kubina fan. He's big, got a good shot, and I guess he can PK (although, really, who are we kidding here? At this point, that's not why you're bringing him in), but he's pretty much the epitome of "old and slow defenseman on his last legs". And "pylon" doesn't even begin to cut it; all the folks on this board that hate Ericsson, you ain't seen nothing yet. Hal Gill would probably be more ideal, if that's what really we're looking for.

...and I'm still not getting all this trade Kindl talk. Yeah, so the guy plays sheltered minutes; BFD. He's still pretty much a rookie at this point; what more do you want from him? This is also the Wings we're talking about, and you know how they are; rarely do they throw young players, especially defenseman, straight to the wolves until they're absolutely ready.

I still see potential in the kid. Not an heir to Lidstrom by any means, but a solid #3-4 down the line. Don't get me wrong; I'm not adverse to trading him, he's FAR from untouchable, but if you're gonna go that route, actually make it worth our while. Don't send a young defenseman packing for an aging, broken down Pavel Kubina; that's just silly.

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02-17-2012, 05:03 AM
  #27
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Oh, ahahah, my bad. I completely forgot he was with the club last year. Well, that's embarrassing. I see your point, but I remember reading somewhere that it takes 300 games of experience for a defencemen to be totally comfortable out there and to be able to make consistent plays (or something like that). I'll try to find the article.
300 games is a lot, for instance than Ericsson would still fall under this protection. I don't have a problem with Big E, just pointing out that is a bunch of games.

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02-17-2012, 07:47 AM
  #28
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Some years back, I recall people on this board wanting to trade Kronwall because of his injuries and general late blooming. Some people even wanted Datsyuk gone, when he was negotiating a new contract. Datsyuk was said to be a playoff choker.

Have some patience with Kindl. A defenseman usually hits his peak around or after 30, which gives Kindl five years to grow. Maybe trading him will sound just as stupid in 2017 as if DRW would have traded Datsyuk in 07-08? Or Kronner? Have some faith in Hollands judgement, he has a good track record of being right

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02-17-2012, 09:36 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Devereaux View Post
A low-round pick, preferably anywhere between 4th-6th.

Basically, I'm not a Kubina fan. He's big, got a good shot, and I guess he can PK (although, really, who are we kidding here? At this point, that's not why you're bringing him in), but he's pretty much the epitome of "old and slow defenseman on his last legs". And "pylon" doesn't even begin to cut it; all the folks on this board that hate Ericsson, you ain't seen nothing yet. Hal Gill would probably be more ideal, if that's what really we're looking for.

...and I'm still not getting all this trade Kindl talk. Yeah, so the guy plays sheltered minutes; BFD. He's still pretty much a rookie at this point; what more do you want from him? This is also the Wings we're talking about, and you know how they are; rarely do they throw young players, especially defenseman, straight to the wolves until they're absolutely ready.

I still see potential in the kid. Not an heir to Lidstrom by any means, but a solid #3-4 down the line. Don't get me wrong; I'm not adverse to trading him, he's FAR from untouchable, but if you're gonna go that route, actually make it worth our while. Don't send a young defenseman packing for an aging, broken down Pavel Kubina; that's just silly.
Yeah you are pretty much spot on IMO. Kindl is far from a polished NHL d-man, but his potential is very evident when he plays. He has a good tool-set (big, good skater, good first pass, good vision, etc.) and there is no way in hell I'd trade him for a guy like Kubina. Obviously if you have an opportunity to be a big player and add a big name free agent, he may have to go. But for a rental player (even Selanne) I don't think it's a very good idea for the future. Definitely could be a solid second pairing d-man in 2 to 3 years.

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02-17-2012, 09:42 AM
  #30
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Kindl isn't going anywhere (I hope). He is slowly establishing himself as a solid defensman who I believe, over the next couple of years will blossom in to a top pairing D-Man.
D-men progress at a differant pace from forwards, which is why you never see an 18 year old playing in the first D pairing, the game is differant for them and they see the game a whole differant way. I think Kindl is a very smart kid and is going to be a long time Red Wing, I think that Babcock knows this, Holland knows it which is why they are taking their time with him.

As for Kubina, I would give Tampa a 2nd round pick just because what he can bring to this team they really need, A righty on the 2nd PP unit, a penalty killer and a big shot from the blue line.

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02-17-2012, 11:18 AM
  #31
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Alright just took a quick look at the stats for this season and here's what we come up with for the third defense pairing. This is based on stats to date.

If E played a full season with Commodore he'd be: +34
If E played a full season with Kindl he'd be: +10

Kindl has gotten many more starts and Commodore was injured at the start of the season and there's reason to suspect he probably got off to a slow start. His conditioning wasn't all that great when he signed with Detroit IIRC. So if you really, really dislike Jonathan Ericsson you should prefer that he play with Mike Commodore rather than Jakub Kindl since the Wings dominate the opponent at ES with E and Commodore on the ice.

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02-17-2012, 11:30 AM
  #32
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If Kindl gets traded for Kubina, all hell will break lose

Thanks to the OP who started this one...Way to go

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02-20-2012, 09:30 AM
  #33
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Apparently the Wings did make an offer to Stevie Y for Kubina but it wasn't enough....

Wonder if Stevie didn't want to be seen as playing favorites with his old GM????

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02-20-2012, 12:17 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by 67coach View Post
Apparently the Wings did make an offer to Stevie Y for Kubina but it wasn't enough....

Wonder if Stevie didn't want to be seen as playing favorites with his old GM????
Or it's yet another example of Holland not being aggressive enough to add the player he wants. Anyone see a pattern developing?

-We want Jagr, Holland makes an offer, Jagr goes somewhere else.
-We want JovoCop, Holland makes an offer, JovoCop goes somewhere else.
-We want Vokoun, Theodore, Smith. We get Conklin instead.
-Burns is shopped. Burns is badly needed. Burns goes to San Jose. Babcock angry.
-Babcock says we need a top 6 upgrade. Holland kicks tires. Holland signs Eaves and Miller.
-And now Kubina.
-And we can probably add Nash to this list. SOmeone will make a healthy offer. Holland won't. Then he'll say getting Cleary back is a big deal.

So why is everyone optimistic we land Suter or Parise? A more aggressive GM will give up a 1st to negotiate with them. Holland won't. Or a more aggressive GM will offer a $100M deal which Holland won't. But we'll get Bert back for cheap. Maybe Homer too.

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02-20-2012, 12:30 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by killbuttman View Post
Or it's yet another example of Holland not being aggressive enough to add the player he wants. Anyone see a pattern developing?
When looking at the standings, yeah, I see pattern developing. We are winning.

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02-20-2012, 12:33 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
When looking at the standings, yeah, I see pattern developing. We are winning.
I'm surprised you didn't mention something about 20 years? That's pretty standard for those who don't actually want to discuss Holland's flaws and how this will likely prevent us from ever having Nash, Parise, Suter, or Weber.

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02-20-2012, 12:43 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by killbuttman View Post
So why is everyone optimistic we land Suter or Parise? A more aggressive GM will give up a 1st to negotiate with them. Holland won't. Or a more aggressive GM will offer a $100M deal which Holland won't. But we'll get Bert back for cheap. Maybe Homer too.
I'm beginning to wonder that too. In the Capgeek thread everyone seems to have Suter penciled in for $7 mil, which doesn't seem realistic given the clout this guy will have on the free market.

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02-20-2012, 01:38 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by icKx View Post
I'm beginning to wonder that too. In the Capgeek thread everyone seems to have Suter penciled in for $7 mil, which doesn't seem realistic given the clout this guy will have on the free market.
If he goes much over $7m, though, is he still worth it? Is he worth $8m a year or would we be better off going out and grabbing a $5m guy and a $3m guy? Even if Suter's one of the best D of his generation, he's still not a Lidstrom level guy, and I'm not sure his "best" is necessarily worth $3m more than another D.

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02-20-2012, 01:44 PM
  #39
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Since I have KB on ignore, I don't get to see all of his posts. But if what I'm gathering from him is true, I'm thinking that he wants Holland do sign or trade for someone regardless of the consequences? Since Parise or Suter to a 9m/cap hit just because that ensures that we get him and that we're being aggressive.

Seems awfully dumb to me.

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02-20-2012, 01:47 PM
  #40
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I'm beginning to wonder that too. In the Capgeek thread everyone seems to have Suter penciled in for $7 mil, which doesn't seem realistic given the clout this guy will have on the free market.
At the time I felt we overpaid for Rafalski both in terms of contract amount and term. That worked out just fine. So I think getting Suter - particularly if Lidstrom retired and Stuart does not come back - should be the top priority. If you have to offer up a bit more - dollar value or term - to get a deal done I think you have to make that deal.

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02-20-2012, 01:53 PM
  #41
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I'm surprised you didn't mention something about 20 years? That's pretty standard for those who don't actually want to discuss Holland's flaws and how this will likely prevent us from ever having Nash, Parise, Suter, or Weber.
Okay, let's just look at your post and break it down.

1) The Wings are not on the list of 5 teams that Nash will waive his NMC. No fault of Holland.

2) Why would New Jersey trade Parise when they are 4th in the conferance and looking like a team on the rise since the line of Parise, Kovie and Henrique was put together.

3) Weber is an RFA and anything you offer would have to wait until July 1st. Nashville are in the same position as the Devils, why trade away a chance at a cup run and send Sutter to the Wings, a team in your own division.

Look, I think Holland has been asleep at the wheel the last couple of years but even Scotty Bowman couldn't pull off the trades you are asking for

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02-20-2012, 02:04 PM
  #42
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If he goes much over $7m, though, is he still worth it? Is he worth $8m a year or would we be better off going out and grabbing a $5m guy and a $3m guy? Even if Suter's one of the best D of his generation, he's still not a Lidstrom level guy, and I'm not sure his "best" is necessarily worth $3m more than another D.
Well if $3 mil truly only gets you a Jonathan Ericsson on today's market I'm going to say, yes. I'd rather have Ryan Suter at $8 than E and, lets say, Kevin Bieksa.

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02-20-2012, 03:35 PM
  #43
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Well if $3 mil truly only gets you a Jonathan Ericsson on today's market I'm going to say, yes. I'd rather have Ryan Suter at $8 than E and, lets say, Kevin Bieksa.
$2.875 got us White. $1.9m got us Bertuzzi. $800K kept Miller here. There seems to be a repeated idea that you can only have so many of these deals before your luck runs out, but Holland&Co. have a pretty solid history of bringing in guys at a low price and then getting a lot out of them. And even when they have such a deal blow up on them (like Conks), they have a redundancy plan in place (such as MacDonald).

I can see an argument for Suter at $8m, and I'm not saying that it wouldn't be the right move. However, I don't think it's a slamdunk as the only move, or that the offseason will necessarily be a failure if we don't grab a Suter or Parise. With how well the Wings organization has done at transitioning from one core to another, at weathering changes in the economic environment, etc., some of the criticism should probably be tempered a bit by that.

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02-20-2012, 05:03 PM
  #44
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Okay, let's just look at your post and break it down.

1) The Wings are not on the list of 5 teams that Nash will waive his NMC. No fault of Holland.

2) Why would New Jersey trade Parise when they are 4th in the conferance and looking like a team on the rise since the line of Parise, Kovie and Henrique was put together.

3) Weber is an RFA and anything you offer would have to wait until July 1st. Nashville are in the same position as the Devils, why trade away a chance at a cup run and send Sutter to the Wings, a team in your own division.

Look, I think Holland has been asleep at the wheel the last couple of years but even Scotty Bowman couldn't pull off the trades you are asking for
Wow. First of all, can you confirm the 5 teams? Because so far it's all speculation. But OK. Let's say Detroit isn't one of the 5...why can't Holland make an offer, Howson goes to Nash and asks if he would consider Detroit as an option. Or is that too outside of the box for you?

I have gone on record saying NJ will NOT trade Parise in the middle of a playoff race. So where did I say Holland would miss out on Parise NOW? I've simply said that THIS SUMMER...a more aggressive GM will trade a 1st to negotiate with Parise, or they'll offer him well above market value to win the auction. I feel the same about Suter. He'll start at $10M, and get 10+ years. Probably not from Holland based on his CONSERVATIVE past.

As for Weber, again, where did I say anything about a trade. Just saying that Weber gets UFA it will be the same as Suter. Holland will sit back waiting for July 1 and hold his precious draft picks...until Philly gives up a #1 for a lunch date with Weber and then offer him $10M x 10 years. And Holland will have a quote about the best signings happen in August.

The point I'm making is quite simple...based on the last few years, Holland has not demonstrated the aggressiveness to trade for a Nash or sign a stud UFA like Parise, Suter or Weber. You seem extremely confused about my point.

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02-21-2012, 08:43 AM
  #45
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Wow. First of all, can you confirm the 5 teams? Because so far it's all speculation. But OK. Let's say Detroit isn't one of the 5...why can't Holland make an offer, Howson goes to Nash and asks if he would consider Detroit as an option. Or is that too outside of the box for you?

I have gone on record saying NJ will NOT trade Parise in the middle of a playoff race. So where did I say Holland would miss out on Parise NOW? I've simply said that THIS SUMMER...a more aggressive GM will trade a 1st to negotiate with Parise, or they'll offer him well above market value to win the auction. I feel the same about Suter. He'll start at $10M, and get 10+ years. Probably not from Holland based on his CONSERVATIVE past.

As for Weber, again, where did I say anything about a trade. Just saying that Weber gets UFA it will be the same as Suter. Holland will sit back waiting for July 1 and hold his precious draft picks...until Philly gives up a #1 for a lunch date with Weber and then offer him $10M x 10 years. And Holland will have a quote about the best signings happen in August.

The point I'm making is quite simple...based on the last few years, Holland has not demonstrated the aggressiveness to trade for a Nash or sign a stud UFA like Parise, Suter or Weber. You seem extremely confused about my point.
Okay;

Not sure if you have read the newspaper or any of the internet based stories regarding Nash but I will remind you of his 5 team list:

LA Kings
New York Rangers
Vancouver Canucks
Toronto Maple Leafs
Boston Bruins.

Why spend time negotiating a deal that the player has already said he would not waive his NMC for. I'm sure if Holland does do this and Nash goes elsewhere you will end up critisizing KH for waisting so much time on the Nash deal that he lost out on someone else.

Quote:
I'm surprised you didn't mention something about 20 years? That's pretty standard for those who don't actually want to discuss Holland's flaws and how this will likely prevent us from ever having Nash, Parise, Suter, or Weber.
I believe this says "From Ever" having Parise.

Why would you give up a 1st round pick to negotiate with someone without any garauntee???

Sorry to disappoint but Sutter is not getting a $100M contract from anyone, not even Brian Burke!!!

I'm not so much confused by your point as I am dumbfounded by your view!

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02-21-2012, 10:24 AM
  #46
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Okay;

Not sure if you have read the newspaper or any of the internet based stories regarding Nash but I will remind you of his 5 team list:

LA Kings
New York Rangers
Vancouver Canucks
Toronto Maple Leafs
Boston Bruins.

Why spend time negotiating a deal that the player has already said he would not waive his NMC for. I'm sure if Holland does do this and Nash goes elsewhere you will end up critisizing KH for waisting so much time on the Nash deal that he lost out on someone else.



I believe this says "From Ever" having Parise.

Why would you give up a 1st round pick to negotiate with someone without any garauntee???

Sorry to disappoint but Sutter is not getting a $100M contract from anyone, not even Brian Burke!!!

I'm not so much confused by your point as I am dumbfounded by your view!
Once again, these are the 5 RUMOURED teams. I'm well aware of that list. This list has not been publicly confirmed by Nash or the Blue Jackets. Many contracts stipulate the player presenting 5 possibilities, but nothing stops Nash from giving 6 teams, or 26 teams. At this point, he has to leave, whether it's now or in the summer. You can't build your franchise around a guy after the story is spun that "Nash wants out and has given us 5 teams". But OK. Since the Wings aren't rumoured to be one of the 5 teams let's just get Moen instead.

As for your disdain for giving up a #1 to negotiate...umm, sorry pal, that's the market for guys like Suter, or Sutter as you call him. People were giving up 2nd rounders to talk to far lesser players last summer without any guarantee. A guy like Suter will likely fetch a 1st. So if you don't want to part with assets for Burns or Nash, then you have to be aggressive and beat everyone to the punch on July 1. The days of waiting until July 1 and having superstars like Hull and Robitaille desperate to sign in Detroit are over. There are nicer cities to live in, and a dozen other teams that can also win the Cup. So if you don't want to trade a #1 for Suter, then don't complain when he isn't a Wing.

Finally, why wouldn't Suter get a $100M contract? He's 27. He's a horse. He could play another 10 years at least. Now add on a few years to reduce the cap hit. So why not 13 years at $100M. Deal starts at $10M for a few years, drops to $9M for a few, then $8M for a few, then down to $3-4M at the end. He's not worth $100M. But someone will offer a deal close to that. But you don't seem to quite understand this since you so quickly reject the price to negotiate (without even a guarantee, lol) and the possibility of a megadeal. Oh well. Pay closer attention this summer.

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02-21-2012, 10:54 AM
  #47
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Or it's yet another example of Holland not being aggressive enough to add the player he wants. Anyone see a pattern developing?

-We want Jagr, Holland makes an offer, Jagr goes somewhere else.
-We want JovoCop, Holland makes an offer, JovoCop goes somewhere else.
-We want Vokoun, Theodore, Smith. We get Conklin instead.
-Burns is shopped. Burns is badly needed. Burns goes to San Jose. Babcock angry.
-Babcock says we need a top 6 upgrade. Holland kicks tires. Holland signs Eaves and Miller.
-And now Kubina.
-And we can probably add Nash to this list. SOmeone will make a healthy offer. Holland won't. Then he'll say getting Cleary back is a big deal.
Jagr: I would have liked Jagr too and thought that he would still be productive. But I thought the $3+ M he got in PHI was overpayment.

Jovo: FLO massively overpaid both in money and duration. I don't know why you would use a 35+ contract at $4.125M/yr for four years as a basis for the conversation. I think the overwhelming majority would be glad that Holland didn't offer that deal.

Vokoun and Theodore: Both wanted to have a shot at being starters. They would not get that in Detroit.

Mike Smith: Was actually a good option. However, it appeared he also wanted to be a starter and $2M (regardless of the Wings' capspace this season) would be way too much for a back up.

Burns: Of course most Wings fans would have wanted Burns. But the deal was Burns for Setoguchi, Charlie Coyle + 1st. That's a hefty price tag as Coyle was probably their best prospect. That'd be like the Wings giving up Filppula, Smith +1st. You may argue that would be worth it while others would disagree. But either way I don't think it'd be fair to say either side clearly would get the majority of the vote.

Top 6 Forwards: Personally, I feel like it's about timing and player availability. I was glad the Wings didn't waste money on fake top 6 fowards last summer. We'll have to wait and see what happens moving forward but i'm glad the Wings are in a position to go after Parise.

Kubina: I think he would have been fine but a 2nd, a 4th and a prospect is a ton to give up for a pure rental who really seems to be on his last legs. I'm glad the Wings didnt make that move.

Nash: As good as he may be that cap hit is massive and the pieces you'd have to move in order to get him (as are being speculated upon) I probably wouldn't want to give those pieces up. If he goes for less (than I expect) then ya I'd be annoyed the Wings weren't in on it (assuming Nash would be willing).

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Originally Posted by killbuttman View Post
Wow. First of all, can you confirm the 5 teams? Because so far it's all speculation. But OK. Let's say Detroit isn't one of the 5...why can't Holland make an offer, Howson goes to Nash and asks if he would consider Detroit as an option. Or is that too outside of the box for you?
How can you be all over a poster for using speculation as a means to refute what you're saying when aside from a couple deals in the past all you're doing is purely speculating as to Holland's failure to get guys like Nash, Parise, Suter, Weber etc.?

You're speculating just as much - if not more. The argument is a two way street.

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02-21-2012, 11:01 AM
  #48
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Once again, these are the 5 RUMOURED teams. I'm well aware of that list. This list has not been publicly confirmed by Nash or the Blue Jackets. Many contracts stipulate the player presenting 5 possibilities, but nothing stops Nash from giving 6 teams, or 26 teams. At this point, he has to leave, whether it's now or in the summer. You can't build your franchise around a guy after the story is spun that "Nash wants out and has given us 5 teams". But OK. Since the Wings aren't rumoured to be one of the 5 teams let's just get Moen instead.

As for your disdain for giving up a #1 to negotiate...umm, sorry pal, that's the market for guys like Suter, or Sutter as you call him. People were giving up 2nd rounders to talk to far lesser players last summer without any guarantee. A guy like Suter will likely fetch a 1st. So if you don't want to part with assets for Burns or Nash, then you have to be aggressive and beat everyone to the punch on July 1. The days of waiting until July 1 and having superstars like Hull and Robitaille desperate to sign in Detroit are over. There are nicer cities to live in, and a dozen other teams that can also win the Cup. So if you don't want to trade a #1 for Suter, then don't complain when he isn't a Wing.

Finally, why wouldn't Suter get a $100M contract? He's 27. He's a horse. He could play another 10 years at least. Now add on a few years to reduce the cap hit. So why not 13 years at $100M. Deal starts at $10M for a few years, drops to $9M for a few, then $8M for a few, then down to $3-4M at the end. He's not worth $100M. But someone will offer a deal close to that. But you don't seem to quite understand this since you so quickly reject the price to negotiate (without even a guarantee, lol) and the possibility of a megadeal. Oh well. Pay closer attention this summer.
Holy Crap, are you 13 years old? Please learn to formulate an appropriate, adult response, if you are really trying to be taken seriously.

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02-21-2012, 11:11 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Unsportsmanlike View Post
Jagr: I would have liked Jagr too and thought that he would still be productive. But I thought the $3+ M he got in PHI was overpayment.

Jovo: FLO massively overpaid both in money and duration. I don't know why you would use a 35+ contract at $4.125M/yr for four years as a basis for the conversation. I think the overwhelming majority would be glad that Holland didn't offer that deal.

Vokoun and Theodore: Both wanted to have a shot at being starters. They would not get that in Detroit.

Mike Smith: Was actually a good option. However, it appeared he also wanted to be a starter and $2M (regardless of the Wings' capspace this season) would be way too much for a back up.

Burns: Of course most Wings fans would have wanted Burns. But the deal was Burns for Setoguchi, Charlie Coyle + 1st. That's a hefty price tag as Coyle was probably their best prospect. That'd be like the Wings giving up Filppula, Smith +1st. You may argue that would be worth it while others would disagree. But either way I don't think it'd be fair to say either side clearly would get the majority of the vote.

Top 6 Forwards: Personally, I feel like it's about timing and player availability. I was glad the Wings didn't waste money on fake top 6 fowards last summer. We'll have to wait and see what happens moving forward but i'm glad the Wings are in a position to go after Parise.

Kubina: I think he would have been fine but a 2nd, a 4th and a prospect is a ton to give up for a pure rental who really seems to be on his last legs. I'm glad the Wings didnt make that move.

Nash: As good as he may be that cap hit is massive and the pieces you'd have to move in order to get him (as are being speculated upon) I probably wouldn't want to give those pieces up. If he goes for less (than I expect) then ya I'd be annoyed the Wings weren't in on it (assuming Nash would be willing).



How can you be all over a poster for using speculation as a means to refute what you're saying when aside from a couple deals in the past all you're doing is purely speculating as to Holland's failure to get guys like Nash, Parise, Suter, Weber etc.?

You're speculating just as much - if not more. The argument is a two way street.
I didn't want Jovo. It's embarassing we even targetted him. I'm simply saying that Holland is developing a history of not getting the player he wants because he isn't aggressive enough. HE wanted Jovo, but his offer was so silly it was laughed at. The debate isn't whether Jovo is a good fit. I think he sucks. The debate is...can Holland be aggressive enough to add the pieces we need.

Holland was interested in Jagr. But didn't get it done.

You can give me all the excuses about the goalies wanting to be #1s you want. But if Holland's stance was so rigid that you were going to tell all these goalies that the job was Howard's NO MATTER WHAT and not up for grabs...then why not identify a career back-up like Hedberg or Garon or Budaj or a former #1 like Giguere who was willing to accept a back-up job? Why approach guys like Vokoun, Theodore, and Smith when they were all capable and wanting a shot to be a #1? So while we wasted time on these goose chases, all the better back-ups were signed.

Sometimes being conservative is the right thing. Not signing Whiz or Leino to silly deals is great. But this pattern doesn't give me ANY confidence that we'll land guys like Nash, Parise, Suter, or Weber. Ever. Bold moves are needed to land these guys. And I don't see it happening.

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02-21-2012, 11:31 AM
  #50
Animus
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Originally Posted by Unsportsmanlike View Post

You're speculating just as much - if not more. The argument is a two way street.
This. EVERYTHING we are talking about is 99% speculation. The only things we find out are the done deals, just like the one that sent Kubina to Philly.

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