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Top 6, Bottom 6, and depth players: There is a big difference

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Old
02-21-2012, 06:56 AM
  #26
Monctonscout
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Originally Posted by Physical HABuse View Post
We've also had coaches that have misused player personnel too. Pacioretty was put in the bottom 6 and Palushaj has been called up and put on the 4th line. It's about knowing your role on a line and getting players that fit that role too, whether you're trying to roll 3 scoring lines and an energy line or rolling 2 scoring lines and 2 grinding lines. Those grinding lines can still include players that score goals. They would supply supportive scoring and just generate it differently....i.e., turnovers or ugly goals in front of the net.

P.S. If Anaheim isn't getting enough scoring from their bottom 2 lines, it's because they aren't good enough. It's about improving your personnel too. You still have to find players that don't have completely stone hands or poor hockey sense....but generate occasional goals consistently enough through hard and rough work.
It depends on a lot of factors.

Some teams ice a team based on 2 scoring lines, a checking line and an "energy/tough" line. Others want 3 offensive lines and a 4th that's energy/tough.

If Eller is your #3 center, giving him skill wingers makes a ton of sense.

In terms of callups, Pacioretty played mostly top 6 during his callup, maybe less at the end after he started to struggle...but I agree they rsuhed him, period.

In terms of playing Palushaj on a 4th line, it's not ideal, but with the current situation, you do what you have to...White missed 2/3 of the season, Moen is currently out and Gionta has been out 2 months so somebody has to move up. Conboy would be a great 4th line callup, Blunden also but both are out indefinitely. At one point when you have 4-5 guys out you can't be picky and say player X needs to play in a certain role.

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02-21-2012, 11:08 AM
  #27
Bullsmith
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Good post. Our lack a real, effective 4th line players (and shutdown 3rd line players often too) has been glaring this year. White's return is glaringly noticeable not because he's such a dominant force as because he's a legit bottom 6 energy guy who hits and stands up for his teammates and brings energy every shift. We need a proper component of that element, instead we've spend 50 games waiting for one injured guy to come back in the lineup. Terrible job by the GM.

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02-21-2012, 11:18 AM
  #28
Pleky Roks
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Originally Posted by Markowicz View Post
I hear a lot of people throwing around the terms "depth players" and "Bottom 6 players" as if they mean the same thing. They don't at all. Unfortunately, I don't think the Canadiens organization knows (or knew) the difference either.

As much as this team needs a real top center, it also needs a full contingent of real bottom 6 type players. Every good team has them. We don't.

Ryan White, who just recently returned to the lineup, is one. So are Travis Moen and Matthieu Darche. Blunden is also one, but not very good. After that, we're severely lacking. We've tried guys like Palushaj, Engqvist, and Leblanc, but they're playing outside their comfort zone. Same with Eller and Kostitsyn. These aren't the roles they're accustomed to, and forcing them to play this way is I don't think the best option.

Acquiring Blake Geoffrion is a good start, but they need to continue in this vein. If, for instance, Andrei Kostitsyn is not in your plans for the top 6, trade him. Same for Palushaj, and heck, maybe even one day with Eller and Leblanc. I hope not, but lets face it, these guys aren't 3rd liners. Eller is not a 3rd line center. Leblanc is not a 3rd line winger. They're only there because the team does not have the right balance. Of course we want to see them play, so for now the 3rd line is acceptable, but its not ideal.

Eller should only be a 3rd line center in the future if he ends up in a Jordan Staal type situation (two great centers ahead of him). Otherwise, i don't think it makes any sense.

As mad as it sounds, Plekanec should be the 3rd line center right now. After all, he does everything a great 3rd line center does. He kills penalties, he forechecks, he chips in the odd goal. Unfortunately, we're not in a position to do this, because of our lack of talent. But it all begins with identifying specific roles for each of our players, and understanding which players fit and which don't. The team as it stands has too many players that are in the wrong roles that suit them. This is a big problem.

Mathieu Darche is easily the worst player that is in the NHL right now!!!

-can't stick handle
-can't pass the puck
-can't shoot the puck
-doesn't hit
-can't/won't fight
-isn't big and physical

To be an effective 4th line player, you need to be at least decent at all of those things and Darche is no good at any of them.

If you look at the Bruins....they have 3 decent lines and their 4th line is made up of grit, muscle and toughness....thats what you need from your 4th line.

This whole top 6 bottom 6 is crap!!! You need at least 9 good forwards. The Bruins 3rd line can score almost as well as their 1st and second lines, plus they know how to play defensive and they play with grit too.

You don't need 6 good skilled players who are soft and 6 gritty players for the 3rd and 4th lines....you need 9 players that offer both skill and grit and a 4th line made up of toughness that you give between 5-10 minutes of icetime every game....depending on how the game is going. You want your first 3 lines to be played the most and all offering the same thing when they are on the ice. All 3 lines need to be tough to play against...and your 4th line should be out banging bodies around and gooning it up some.

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Old
02-21-2012, 12:58 PM
  #29
Rise from the Ashes
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To clarify, Cleary played with Datsyuk last year and that is why he scored so many. He has virtually no passing ability or dekes. He is a crash, bang and shoot first player.

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02-21-2012, 01:02 PM
  #30
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Rise from the Ashes View Post
To clarify, Cleary played with Datsyuk last year and that is why he scored so many. He has virtually no passing ability or dekes. He is a crash, bang and shoot first player.
I don't care. Your casual grinder will not score 26 even if paired with Crosby.

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02-21-2012, 01:06 PM
  #31
Markowicz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullsmith View Post
Good post. Our lack a real, effective 4th line players (and shutdown 3rd line players often too) has been glaring this year. White's return is glaringly noticeable not because he's such a dominant force as because he's a legit bottom 6 energy guy who hits and stands up for his teammates and brings energy every shift. We need a proper component of that element, instead we've spend 50 games waiting for one injured guy to come back in the lineup. Terrible job by the GM.
I think it's as someone said before, a snowball effect that started in the Carbo-era (and maybe before) where we became a top 9 team, with a whatever 4th line. We've gotten away from what made us a winning team so long ago.

All to say that I'm not going to put all the blame on Gauthier, because it's a cumulative effort by all the recent GM's that's currently put us in this position. If anything, Gauthier is the first GM in a while to actually address real problems in the organization. Signing Cole was big. Trading one underachiever for another (Cammalleri for Bourque) was a bit of a sideways deal at its worst, but at least it addressed the size issue. I for one like the deal, simply because of the 2nd rounder and Patrick Holland, and giving the team more flexibility money-wise. I don't think actually think Bourque will be that good here, but at least he can be convinced to be a big body in front of the net, something Cammalleri would never do.

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Old
02-21-2012, 01:16 PM
  #32
Markowicz
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I don't have an issue with trading Plekanec if it's to get a solid #1 center, one that gets the 1pt/gp pace regularly, otherwise we won't get a better player.
Plekanec got his contract because he's played some very, very solid hockey. He didn't overachieve, and he's worth every penny. He's had an off year, like the vast majority of our players.

You're also wrong, there is no point in trading Plekanec unless it means getting a solid center. I don't care if it's a three way trade, or one that leads up to it thanks to the assets received. At the end of the day, if Plekanec is moved, it's to make place for a top center. Otherwise we worsen our team. You don't get rid of one of the best two way center in the NHL just because you think he can't lead the team to a cup.
You move Plekanec, you not only get rid of your best offensive forward (I don't care how hot Cole, MaxPac or whoever else is, Plek is our best forward), but you also lose your best defensive forward and best PK player (arguably the best PK center in the NHL). So ya, you better make sure you get a very good return for him at the center position.
Sorry, i guess i should have clarified. Yes, for sure i think that if Plekanec gets moved its because a top line center will replace him, eventually. I just don't think that's integral that Plekanec gets traded for said center. Like for instance we draft a top level center, and then when he's ready, we trade Plekanec. All that I was saying is that there is more than one way of replacing Plekanec.

To me the most healthy way of doing it is through the draft. I don't mind waiting a few years. Heck by then, maybe Desharnais or Eller becomes the guy we want traded. I don't know. All i know for sure is that we need a real top center, and once you have that guy in place, it becomes so much easier to define roles on the team.

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