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Nash-ty Rumors Part IV: The Longest Week

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Old
02-21-2012, 10:36 AM
  #26
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Nash would be a huge bust and don't forget his insane cap hit. This team is the best in the East and has plenty of firepower. Nash has never done anything.. 4 games of playoff experience.. lol and the price to get him is crazy.

Slats should have gone for Kubina if anything at all.

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02-21-2012, 10:37 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by RL605 View Post
Exactly.

Video-game esque.

Except this isn't a video game and there's no guarantees Nash fits here or produces like his two best seasons.

If he comes here and plays like he's been in Columbus as just a 60 point player or so and we don't win a Cup, he'll be just another overpaid FA that this fanbase wants to get rid of.

Well if the 60 points entails 35 goals a season as it has, over the course of his career, I think that would be far to big a contribution for our fans to want to run him out of town, and if our team is in a good enough position to the point where we can happily cut 35 goals just for the purpose of cutting salary, then i'd say thats a pretty good problem to have.

You can say point, points, points all you want, fact of the matter is Nash is a goal scorer who will be coming here to score goals, not to be a playmaker, and he isn't going to get 80 points when he ha been playing with guys like Zherdev his whole career. Richards isn't even going to hit 60 points this season and we have all seen what a huge difference maker he has been in stretches for us this year.

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02-21-2012, 10:37 AM
  #28
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Getting Nash does not make any guarantees except for the fact he'll be cashing in checks of 7.8 mill per for the next 6 seasons.
Nothing being guaranteed is among the weakest of reasons used by fans. Fact is the chances of winning it all with Nash is significantly greater than without. If moves were only made when there is a guarantee, the roster would be empty.

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Old
02-21-2012, 10:37 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
If you can guarantee that trading for Nash will get us a Cup in June, then I'll gladly wait another 54 years after. But the only thing you can guarantee is that Nash's contract gives the organization almost no cap flexibility for the next 3 years. IMO, it's not worth the potential headache.
Unless Fehr or Bettman are posting here nobody has any clue how Nash might impact the cap even next season.

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02-21-2012, 10:38 AM
  #30
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It is true that a few years back NYR management turned down grachev for St. Louis when Grachev was finishing his year in juniors and MSL was coming off an off year.

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02-21-2012, 10:40 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by NY Lito View Post
Agreed on all fronts here. Dubi won't be missed at all if we get Nash.

Also, I feel like this is a good time to say this. And this is for all who are worrying about the cap situation years from now.

Many times on this board, people bring up the trades during the '94 run. How these trades were ultimately "bad", as they cost the team a couple of potential runs at the cup down the road.

My question is: do you want a cup, or a couple of potential runs down the road? How the hell people think those trades were bad is beyond me. We know those trades led to a cup. That's a fact. Thinking the players we traded away would have led to more chances is pure speculation.

We have no idea how Kreider will turn out, if Dubinsky will ever get up to his offensive potential, etc. We do know Nash is a bonafide elite power forward. We do know Richards is signed until his retirement and needs a scoring winger. We do know we have the best goalie in the league in the prime of his career.

Adding Nash to this team, IMO, makes us the favorites to win the cup, bar none. Screw potential runs in 3 years, for the next 2, we are top favorites to win it. I could give a crap if Kreider turns into a good player or if we need to get rid of AA in 2 years if we win a cup (or 2) in the next few years.

People need to be realistic. If you can get an elite player to help you win a cup for the next 2 years, you ****ing do it. You do it everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.
I dont know man, I mean everyone here wants a cup. Can we all agree on that? Good. But, at what cost?

The way you're talking sounds like every trade deadline and offseason for the past 15 years. Lets get this big name and develop **** because he can help us win the cup now. What did it get us? Mediocrity. Squeeking in the playoffs year after year, agonizing about bust after bust, hoping 'please hockey gods, I know we're doing the same exact thing and expecting different results, but can you help us out just this once', which is in fact, insanity.

Then just recently, there was a shift in how this team tried to get better. A paradigm shift. And you know what, its working. Alot better than even we expected. The hardest thing at this point is to stay the course, but its the right thing to do. With the goal appearing to be so tantilizingly close, its understandable that feelings of "mine, mine, mine...gimme, gimme, gimme" get stronger and stronger. But its just like anything, just like cooking a turkey...you baste it, stuff it, marinade it...if you take it out an hour before its done, its ****.

We all have different opinions on how far this current lineup can take us, and we're entitled to that. We all know they can't score on the PP and how it seems they have no offense (even though their 11th in goals). However, I feel we shouldn't stray to far from the metality that got us to this current lineup, that is first in the East and is exceeding expectations. Just my two cents.

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02-21-2012, 10:40 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by NHRangerfan View Post
Unless Fehr or Bettman are posting here nobody has any clue how Nash might impact the cap even next season.
So we should trade for Nash and hope that the CBA changes in favor of the Rangers?

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02-21-2012, 10:40 AM
  #33
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Is it possible to have CBJ pay for part of Nash's salary if we got him via trade, or does the CBA not allow that? Say if they paid like 1.8-2.0 million of it per season. I really don't follow the details of the CBA, because frankly its boring.

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02-21-2012, 10:40 AM
  #34
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Everyone remember our can't miss, uber-amazing russian prospect Evgeny Grachev? (he even had the authentic name!)

A perfect example of an overrated prospect who never amounted (and most likely never will) to what he was projected to be.

Kreider is being treated around here like he is the next Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, or even a Seguin who just happens to want to WAIT around in college and not ready to plat at the NHL level yet.

If he is so highly touted, and can step into NHL level play and dominate like the players above, why isn't he being heavily persuaded to sign here NOW?

He's cheaper than Nash, and we wouldn't have to trade Dubinsky, or any prospects.

Kreider might be another enigma who was highly touted, but once at the NHL level, blends in with others and never makes a crushing impact on the game.

Or, he might not be.

My point is, if this is such a sure thing with him, organization would make sure he would be here playing.

True sick talent is known about in the NHL and talked about league wide. Is Kreider flying under everyone's radar?, or is he only an enigma to this organization and its fans?

Lot's of interesting questions here...
Very fair point. Worth a bump.

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Old
02-21-2012, 10:41 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by NY Lito View Post
Agreed on all fronts here. Dubi won't be missed at all if we get Nash.

Also, I feel like this is a good time to say this. And this is for all who are worrying about the cap situation years from now.

Many times on this board, people bring up the trades during the '94 run. How these trades were ultimately "bad", as they cost the team a couple of potential runs at the cup down the road.

My question is: do you want a cup, or a couple of potential runs down the road? How the hell people think those trades were bad is beyond me. We know those trades led to a cup. That's a fact. Thinking the players we traded away would have led to more chances is pure speculation.

We have no idea how Kreider will turn out, if Dubinsky will ever get up to his offensive potential, etc. We do know Nash is a bonafide elite power forward. We do know Richards is signed until his retirement and needs a scoring winger. We do know we have the best goalie in the league in the prime of his career.

Adding Nash to this team, IMO, makes us the favorites to win the cup, bar none. Screw potential runs in 3 years, for the next 2, we are top favorites to win it. I could give a crap if Kreider turns into a good player or if we need to get rid of AA in 2 years if we win a cup (or 2) in the next few years.

People need to be realistic. If you can get an elite player to help you win a cup for the next 2 years, you ****ing do it. You do it everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.
It's a very good question you pose and one that is, in one way, easily answered, and in another way, not so easily answered. Do I as a Ranger fan want to see them win the cup? Of course I do, but ultimately what I want from the Rangers as someone who spends a lot of money to go see them play is, I want to be entertained. That is what professional sports are - at least in my opinion - entertainment. That said, I would rather spend my money being entertained year after year - something Detroit fans get because their team is always (or at least almost always) a contender, as opposed to a watching a powerhouse team that makes 2 cup runs and then needs to rebuild so they can do it all over again.

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Old
02-21-2012, 10:43 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
So we should trade for Nash and hope that the CBA changes in favor of the Rangers?
id be willing to bet that sather, his friends in the nhl, and the rest of his cap guys know a bit more about the future of the salary cap then anyone on here does.

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Old
02-21-2012, 10:44 AM
  #37
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Quote from Melrose Jr:
That's a pretty poor argument.

The environment in the NHL is nothing like the environment that existed as many as 5 years before the last lockout. IMO, the likelihood of a work stoppage is so remote that it's foolish make it the foundation of case that throws caution to the wind in terms of fiscal responsibility.

And what I posted was my opinion....you know many of us old enough to remember the 94 lockout said the exact same things as you posted above.

An Original 6 team in the worlds largest media market had just won the Cup ending a 54 year drought after a very exciting 7 game ECF and an almost equally exciting 7 game SCF, the Rangers were all over the airwaves and we all said no way the owners screw up this public relations coup they were handed with hockey now on the National radar...we all know how that turned out.
Yup. I'm about to turn 41. I remember '94 well - the thrill, the euphoria...

...the utter and complete shock at the fact that the league was willing to completely flush the unprecedented popularity of the sport down the toilet three months later.

In '94, hockey actually led SportsCenter on many nights, especially during the POs. People complain about the Rangers not getting the back pages? They got them in '94 - despite the fact that the Knicks also had their best run since '73. The league still ****ed it up with a full season lockout... and has never come close to approaching the popularity it enjoyed during that period.

The NHLPA just hired Donald Fehr to upgrade their firepower at the bargaining table. Meanwhile, we are in the midst of an environment where the NFL just had an mini lockout during preseaso. The NBA had a partial season lockout. The NHL has a larger disparity of player/team revenues than either of those leagues and has a demonstrated history of not giving two ***** about anything other than winning a labor dispute.

Sadly, I am actually expecting a work stoppage.

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Old
02-21-2012, 10:45 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by RL605 View Post
Exactly.

Video-game esque.

Except this isn't a video game and there's no guarantees Nash fits here or produces like his two best seasons.

If he comes here and plays like he's been in Columbus as just a 60 point player or so and we don't win a Cup, he'll be just another overpaid FA that this fanbase wants to get rid of.
...and if he comes here and puts up career best numbers, what then? What if he puts up 50 goals because he's finally playing on a team where he isn't the lone scoring threat? You can play the "if" game on both sides of the coin.

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02-21-2012, 10:46 AM
  #39
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So we should trade for Nash and hope that the CBA changes in favor of the Rangers?
Not what I said but feel free to infer that...you made a statement that getting Nash would give this team no cap flexibility for the next 3 years, nobody can make that statement without having inside info on what the league wants from a starting point and what they privately know they will settle for.

But don't you think that Sather has more insight into what the NHL position is going into the CBA talks?

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02-21-2012, 10:46 AM
  #40
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Old
02-21-2012, 10:47 AM
  #41
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if Nash has to come, then MDZ needs to stay. we can't trade jewels in our defense for something that will need a lot of time to buy into our system, and defensively challenged. so if asking price is too much, Nash has to go somewhere else and Rangers will be happy.

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02-21-2012, 10:47 AM
  #42
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This "cup favorites" thing is such a crock of nonsense. Right now online I see futures odds between 5.5:1 and 7:1 for us, Detroit, Vancouver, and Boston. You guys are talking like we have a 50/50 chance at the cup right now and with Nash it would be a virtual lock.

The playoffs are a crapshoot. It's only after you see who won that you can say a certain team had all the makings of a champion.

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02-21-2012, 10:48 AM
  #43
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Well if the 60 points entails 35 goals a season as it has, over the course of his career, I think that would be far to big a contribution for our fans to want to run him out of town, and if our team is in a good enough position to the point where we can happily cut 35 goals just for the purpose of cutting salary, then i'd say thats a pretty good problem to have.

You can say point, points, points all you want, fact of the matter is Nash is a goal scorer who will be coming here to score goals, not to be a playmaker, and he isn't going to get 80 points when he ha been playing with guys like Zherdev his whole career. Richards isn't even going to hit 60 points this season and we have all seen what a huge difference maker he has been in stretches for us this year.
Agreed.

Nash is a top notch goal scorer and I don't expect him to eclipse 80+ pts on that team, but my point is that nothing is a given. Richards has had an impact here, but people also thought him coming here and playing with Gaborik would give him another 80-90 point season or so. (I said around 75, but some did expect him to reach that)

Nash is on a bad team, yes, but him coming here and playing with Richards doesn't make any guarantees of him being his usual self.

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02-21-2012, 10:49 AM
  #44
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...and if he comes here and puts up career best numbers, what then? What if he puts up 50 goals because he's finally playing on a team where he isn't the lone scoring threat? You can play the "if" game on both sides of the coin.
I agree.

If the for-Nash crowd is playing the "if" game, then I want to play too.

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02-21-2012, 10:50 AM
  #45
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Everyone remember our can't miss, uber-amazing russian prospect Evgeny Grachev? (he even had the authentic name!)

A perfect example of an overrated prospect who never amounted (and most likely never will) to what he was projected to be.

Kreider is being treated around here like he is the next Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, or even a Seguin who just happens to want to WAIT around in college and not ready to plat at the NHL level yet.

If he is so highly touted, and can step into NHL level play and dominate like the players above, why isn't he being heavily persuaded to sign here NOW?

He's cheaper than Nash, and we wouldn't have to trade Dubinsky, or any prospects.

Kreider might be another enigma who was highly touted, but once at the NHL level, blends in with others and never makes a crushing impact on the game.

Or, he might not be.

My point is, if this is such a sure thing with him, organization would make sure he would be here playing.

True sick talent is known about in the NHL and talked about league wide. Is Kreider flying under everyone's radar?, or is he only an enigma to this organization and its fans?

Lot's of interesting questions here...
Grachev dominated one year in major junior playing with Duschene and Hodgson. Kreider is a ppg player in the NCAA. Apples and Oranges. Kreider may never be a star but the comparison doesn't work. Also, and this doesn't always matter, but Kreider was a 1st round pick and Grachev went in the 3rd round. So, the flaws in Grachev's game were evident while Kreider just needed experience. His skating and shot are elite. It's the details and he's spent three years playing against 21 and 22 year olds working that out. He's ready and he's unsigned which hopefully scares Columbus away.

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02-21-2012, 10:50 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by nevesis View Post
Everyone remember our can't miss, uber-amazing russian prospect Evgeny Grachev? (he even had the authentic name!)

A perfect example of an overrated prospect who never amounted (and most likely never will) to what he was projected to be.

Kreider is being treated around here like he is the next Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, or even a Seguin who just happens to want to WAIT around in college and not ready to plat at the NHL level yet.

If he is so highly touted, and can step into NHL level play and dominate like the players above, why isn't he being heavily persuaded to sign here NOW?

He's cheaper than Nash, and we wouldn't have to trade Dubinsky, or any prospects.

Kreider might be another enigma who was highly touted, but once at the NHL level, blends in with others and never makes a crushing impact on the game.

Or, he might not be.

My point is, if this is such a sure thing with him, organization would make sure he would be here playing.

True sick talent is known about in the NHL and talked about league wide. Is Kreider flying under everyone's radar?, or is he only an enigma to this organization and its fans?

Lot's of interesting questions here...
You make some good points here, but I think Grachev is an entirely different animal than Kreider. Kreider has an NHL future based on his size, skating, and physicality alone. Grachev, however, was a top-six or bust kind of prospect that was over-hyped, and, at least to some extent, rushed in his development.

The Rangers tried to get him to turn pro last year, and he opted to go back to get his degree and try and win another championship. He's all but guaranteed to turn pro after graduation.

I'm 100% in the "keep Kreider" camp. I also happen to think we could get Nash without giving him up.

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02-21-2012, 10:51 AM
  #47
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This "cup favorites" thing is such a crock of nonsense. Right now online I see futures odds between 5.5:1 and 7:1 for us, Detroit, Vancouver, and Boston. You guys are talking like we have a 50/50 chance at the cup right now and with Nash it would be a virtual lock.

The playoffs are a crapshoot. It's only after you see who won that you can say a certain team had all the makings of a champion.
And you don't think that adding Nash makes the bookmakers change the odds?

So in your opinion teams should just stand pat?

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02-21-2012, 10:52 AM
  #48
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I dont know man, I mean everyone here wants a cup. Can we all agree on that? Good. But, at what cost?

The way you're talking sounds like every trade deadline and offseason for the past 15 years. Lets get this big name and develop **** because he can help us win the cup now. What did it get us? Mediocrity. Squeeking in the playoffs year after year, agonizing about bust after bust, hoping 'please hockey gods, I know we're doing the same exact thing and expecting different results, but can you help us out just this once', which is in fact, insanity.

Then just recently, there was a shift in how this team tried to get better. A paradigm shift. And you know what, its working. Alot better than even we expected. The hardest thing at this point is to stay the course, but its the right thing to do. With the goal appearing to be so tantilizingly close, its understandable that feelings of "mine, mine, mine...gimme, gimme, gimme" get stronger and stronger. But its just like anything, just like cooking a turkey...you baste it, stuff it, marinade it...if you take it out an hour before its done, its ****.

We all have different opinions on how far this current lineup can take us, and we're entitled to that. We all know they can't score on the PP and how it seems they have no offense (even though their 11th in goals). However, I feel we shouldn't stray to far from the metality that got us to this current lineup, that is first in the East and is exceeding expectations. Just my two cents.
Excellent post.

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02-21-2012, 10:52 AM
  #49
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Apparently it's OK to speculate about trade proposals for Nash but not about the cap or new CBA?

Sather also knows more than everyone on this board about what package it would take to get Nash but I don't see anyone complaining about that. If you don't like seeing posts about cap speculation just ignore it instead of telling others not to worry about it.

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02-21-2012, 10:54 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by NHRangerfan View Post
Not what I said but feel free to infer that...you made a statement that getting Nash would give this team no cap flexibility for the next 3 years, nobody can make that statement without having inside info on what the league wants from a starting point and what they privately know they will settle for.

But don't you think that Sather has more insight into what the NHL position is going into the CBA talks?
All I'm saying is that if the current CBA landscape does not change we're going to be in cap hell with Nash aboard.

This trade only works out if Nash helps deliver a Cup this season OR if the CBA changes in favor of the Rangers. Both are far from guarantees. Just not worth the risk IMO.

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