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Koivu (Returning To Lineup 3/22)

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Old
02-21-2012, 10:26 AM
  #101
Dr Jan Itor
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That depends if Koivu also plays how we expect. If they both do, then we have two #1 centers.

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02-21-2012, 10:33 AM
  #102
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What is a #1 center though?

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02-21-2012, 10:42 AM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
If Granlund is on this team and plays as we expect, do we still consider Koivu a #1 center?

More importantly, can we define what a #1 center is once and for all?
I can't speak for anyone else, but if Granlund plays how I expect him to, then next season Koivu will be our top line center, but some time in the next year or two he will be bumped down and seen as a Kesler type. That's where he'll stay, much like his brother in Anaheim.



As for defining #1 center, I would go with a twist on the literalist interpretation. A #1 center is a player who could legitimately fill the top line center role on a "good" team. In that regard, Malkin is a #1 center but (to pick on the Leafs) Tim Connolly likely wouldn't be. In that regard, I would argue Koivu is a #1 center, but at the edge where I'd accept people disagreeing me without too much argument.

The fact of the matter is, we've never seen what Koivu can do with secondary scoring. How would he do replacing Thornton (or as San Jose is currently aligned, Pavelski)? Koivu is not a Crosby, Malkin, or Backstrom (WSH). He's not going to carry a line to huge point totals despite teams overcommitting to him. Then again, neither can Henrik Sedin. If you put Koivu on a team like San Jose and took away their current "#1 center" I don't think we'd have this conversation.

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02-21-2012, 10:43 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by SwimToTheMoon View Post
O'Doyle rules
You made me laugh. I love that movie.

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Originally Posted by Dr Jan Itor View Post
Any talk about trading Koivu is so reactionary and short-sighted that, I'm sorry, it does not deserve serious discussion. Did we have to overpay? Yes. Has he underperformed? Yes, due to injury. Is his contract going to doom us for years to come? Of course not.
He has underperformed. Why? In my eyes its "I got paid" syndrome. Plus a bunch of other selfish, whiney stuff that most people don't buy but I see plenty of evidence of.

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According to Russo, no Koivu at practice this morning.
Just peachy. If they really are in media blackout mode about his injury because of the trade deadline, we better here something the minute the deadline passes. I'm getting very impatient.

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02-21-2012, 10:50 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Avder View Post
He has underperformed. Why? In my eyes its "I got paid" syndrome.
He started slow, then went on a run of 12-16 games (I believe) where he was a PPG+; funny, that also coincided with our winning streak. Then he got hurt and, funny, that coincided with the start of our losing streak. I call it an "I got injured" syndrome.

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Plus a bunch of other selfish, whiney stuff that most people don't buy but I see plenty of evidence of.
Enlighten us.

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02-21-2012, 11:10 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
It's frustrating for me because he just refuses to talk to Russo or be the face of the franchise. Guys like Iginla and Crosby are excellent captains. They show up to the media every day and answer every question and clearly their respect and work ethic permeates the room. Koivu is just surly and spouts a couple quotes and disappear.

The idea that your captain is out day-to-day with an undisclosed injury is ridiculous. Maybe it's a drug problem or something crazy and I'll look like the a-hole, but if it's an actual injury, come out and say it. There are 18,000 people willing to shell out dollars and see your product and support your team. Come out and say what's going on if you're the supposed face of the franchise and leader. The smoke and mirrors is so annoying.

I was a Koivu booster for years but I'm pretty sick of him. A handful of quality games since his new contract and a whole load of nothing else. Went from drastically overrated to overpaid and somewhat ineffective.

I don't think he'd scratch $5.5m if there were any star players on the Wild roster. I do think the team had to overpay to keep him because he was the only one of value (aside from Burns). I can't help but think that went to his head. The team desperately needs somewhat to draw the attention away from him because he's just not picking up the team and running.
Totally agree.

IMHO, our beloved Kaptain K won't talk to Russo because Russo says it like he sees it, especially when the team sucks as much as they do.

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02-21-2012, 11:33 AM
  #107
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Back to the #1 center definition, here's my take:

I don't like defining a #1 center as "would he be a #1 center on any team". Nobody would be the #1 center for the Penguins except Crosby. And then you get into "who's better, Datsyuk or Crosby" nonsense.

I also don't like defining a #1 center as a top scorer on the PP. Some guys get tons of minutes on the PP and their team gets a lot more chances. Even strength play to me is much more important.

Playing in "all situations" doesn't really seem like a good definition either. There are PP and PK specialists, but being the #1 center implies you have four lines and this is the best option at center, not when you have two forwards out on the ice killing a penalty. Ovechkin doesn't play on the PK but that doesn't not make him a top line winger (or at least back when he was awesome).

So I'd propose a #1 center would be considered roughly a top 30 scorer at even strength. Give or take a few spots, maybe push it to top 45.

Alternately, you could look at even strength scoring standards and compare a player to that. Post-lockout, here are the rough even strength PPG of the ~30th scoring centers:

2005-06 ~ 0.41
2006-07 ~ 0.43
2007-08 ~ 0.45
2008-09 ~ 0.48
2009-10 ~ 0.46
2010-11 ~ 0.48
2011-12 ~ 0.46

It's fairly consistent...about 0.45 points per game at even strength. Here are Koivu's stats:

2005-06 ~ 0.35
2006-07 ~ 0.39
2007-08 ~ 0.51
2008-09 ~ 0.44
2009-10 ~ 0.53
2010-11 ~ 0.55
2011-12 ~ 0.44

Actually he's been pretty much a #1 center since his sophomore year. This year he has not been as productive, but he's been in and out quite a bit.

So I can concede my point...he does fit my criteria for a #1 center in terms of even strength point production. I still think he needs to show he can stay healthy and I'm not happy with his reclusive attitude towards the media and fans during the losing stretches, but I'll happily drop my "not a #1 center" argument.

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02-21-2012, 11:41 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Jan Itor View Post
Enlighten us.
Read all my paranoid stuff in the other thread. Basically boils down to Koivu being "me me me" choosing his own linemates and being inflexible in that respect.

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02-21-2012, 12:03 PM
  #109
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Just peachy. If they really are in media blackout mode about his injury because of the trade deadline, we better here something the minute the deadline passes. I'm getting very impatient.
I'm going with bilateral leg weakness or plantar fasciitis and because of local history the team is too scared to announce it

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02-21-2012, 12:04 PM
  #110
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Oh? We're back to this discussion? Yay!
This about sums it up.

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02-21-2012, 12:08 PM
  #111
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Russo with the update:

Quote:
Mikko Koivu didn't practice due to his undisclosed injury. He skated before practice and is "50-50" to go on the road trip, coach Mike Yeo guesses. Regarding the mystery with his injury, the Wild is trying to protect him because he is going to try to come back very soon and play with it. There's nothing else going on, for those that are emailing and tweeting me with conspiracy theories.
So, probably not concussion, likely shoulder re-injury or something similar?

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02-21-2012, 12:33 PM
  #112
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I don't care as long as he plays on Sunday

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02-21-2012, 01:01 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
Russo with the update:



So, probably not concussion, likely shoulder re-injury or something similar?
Sounds like something upper body. What I don't like about it is he's "50-50 to go on the road trip." That's to say, there's a 50% chance he comes with the team on the plane. That doesn't say anything about his likelihood of playing. He went on a road trip before where they knew he wouldn't play.

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02-22-2012, 03:00 AM
  #114
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Sigh koivus injuries..

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02-22-2012, 09:04 AM
  #115
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Hey guys, first real post!

When was the last time we saw beast mode Koivu? Last time I recall was when he blew up Kronwall in the corner, took the puck and won the game. We all have seen him single-handedly take the puck from a defender and score, but now he is playing with very little emotion, I miss beast mode Koivu.

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02-22-2012, 09:58 AM
  #116
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Hey guys, first real post!

When was the last time we saw beast mode Koivu? Last time I recall was when he blew up Kronwall in the corner, took the puck and won the game. We all have seen him single-handedly take the puck from a defender and score, but now he is playing with very little emotion, I miss beast mode Koivu.
Welcome!

He was in beast mode for a game a few weeks back, maybe his first game back from injury? Otherwise yeah it was just that Kronwall play, a couple times last year, and then pretty much every game he played before his injury the year before.

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02-22-2012, 10:46 AM
  #117
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Read all my paranoid stuff in the other thread. Basically boils down to Koivu being "me me me" choosing his own linemates and being inflexible in that respect.
You have do admit, everything you're saying about Koivu being selfish is speculation.

As fans, we have no real idea what the power dynamic is between Koivu and the team management.

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02-22-2012, 12:18 PM
  #118
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You have do admit, everything you're saying about Koivu being selfish is speculation.

As fans, we have no real idea what the power dynamic is between Koivu and the team management.
Of course it's all speculation, but it would explain why Mittens would never leave his line last year, or why we have yet to see Koivu skate without Heatley on his wing this year.

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02-22-2012, 12:36 PM
  #119
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Of course it's all speculation, but it would explain why Mittens would never leave his line last year, or why we have yet to see Koivu skate without Heatley on his wing this year.
And the Greek and Roman Gods perfectly explained the seasons, weather, and cycle of life and death. Which is why we obviously all still believe in them right?

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02-22-2012, 12:38 PM
  #120
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Of course it's all speculation, but it would explain why Mittens would never leave his line last year, or why we have yet to see Koivu skate without Heatley on his wing this year.
I agree that Mittens never leaving his side last year was probably because thats what Koivu wanted but also TR wouldnt dare man up and tell the players who they're playing with. He probably just asked them and then just did what they wanted. But Koivu and Heatley has got to be Yeo. Yeo seems like he wouldnt allow player to take charge and make those decisions, or atleast I hope thats the kind of coach he is.

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02-22-2012, 12:50 PM
  #121
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Quote:
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Of course it's all speculation, but it would explain why Mittens would never leave his line last year, or why we have yet to see Koivu skate without Heatley on his wing this year.
Word is the Wild are going to sign Zid to an extension this summer. Of course it's all speculation, but it would explain why they keep playing him and haven't traded him yet.

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02-22-2012, 12:59 PM
  #122
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Based on his recent comments, I think an extension with the Wild falls just below ass cancer on the list of things Zidlicky wants.

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02-22-2012, 01:03 PM
  #123
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Quote:
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Of course it's all speculation, but it would explain why Mittens would never leave his line last year, or why we have yet to see Koivu skate without Heatley on his wing this year.
That's one possibility.

Another possibility is that Yeo/Richards decide(s/d) the lines, and Heatley/Mietinen are who they thought Koivu played best with.

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02-22-2012, 01:12 PM
  #124
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And the Greek and Roman Gods perfectly explained the seasons, weather, and cycle of life and death. Which is why we obviously all still believe in them right?
Man I'm just speculating here. Something about how the organization handles Koivu seems off to me. No need for these kinds of posts directed at me.

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02-22-2012, 01:13 PM
  #125
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Man I'm just speculating here. Something about how the organization handles Koivu seems off to me. No need for these kinds of posts directed at me.
That's just how squidz rolls. Don't take it personal.

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