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Your face when you realize David Desharnais has more assists than...

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Old
02-20-2012, 04:55 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Capitals-era Oates isn't that crazy a possibility if he keeps it up. Pre-Capitals Oates though, I don't think so.
Just need another Neely...

Is MaxPac that guy ?

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02-20-2012, 08:06 PM
  #302
EllertoKostitsynGoal
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Here's a question I have, EllertoKostitsyn... Eller gets harder competition (though that has become a lot closer lately) but how is their performance in those specific minutes? Take out all soft minutes from both players and what does it look like? Probably impossible to find out though.

Well the best way to get an idea would be to look on a game by game basis since I can't think of any place does this. And, like I said, I'm pretty new to the whole advanced stats thing but, from what I know, you have to consider context while evaluating anything.

For example, when Eller has faced hard opposition, his main linemates have been Darche, Nokelainen, Moen, AK and Blunden. Only AK could be considered a tough minutes offensive winger out of those and even then he tends to thrive more on an exploitation line. When DD does, he does so with what are probably our 2 best tough minutes winger (Gionta would probably rank ahead of Patches but he's injured). Altought I think Cole is the best puck possession player and the best one at driving the play out of them. When Cole is off you can see the effect it has on the whole line. DD also gets the most Ozone starts on the team out of any regular (wich is normal since that's how he should be used) though not ridiculously so. He's at 55,3 %, in comparision Plekanec is at 41.2 % wich is pretty brutal (29th in the NHL for fowards with a least 50 Games played, he's surrounded on that list by a bunch of guys who aren't actually expected to lead their team in scoring).

From what I've seen DD has gotten better at handling tougher minutes as the year progressed but in terms of driving the play in those minutes he's probably the weakest on his line(the other two are very very good). He's better than he used to be though, no doubt but Eller has the ceilling to become the stronger 5on5 hard minutes player (might not be as good on the PP but it's hard to say since we've barely seen him there) and he should be develloped as such if we want him to be ready to take over Plekanec when he'll decline wich should give us the basis of a very strong tough minutes possession unit for a couple of years in Subban-Eller(both the same age too). One thing I've noticed from DD's line though is that sometimes they'll have this huge game where they dominate and can almost do no wrong even in tough minutes (Probably helped by being the only line that has had the chance to devellop any sort of chemistry).

But overall, as the 5on5 game has gotten worse(the whole team not just them, we seem to get dominated the second Subban-Gorges, but mainly Subban, gets off the ice sometimes), they seem to be riding the % a bit in the past few weeks. For example, DD has the highest on ice shooting % on the team (5on5 and on the PP) he also has the second highest on ice SV% (behind Diaz). Basically, I wouldn't be surprised to see a game where the rest of the team combine for 15 scoring chances without a single one of those going in while that line manages 2 goals on 4 chances. But if the PP keeps on shooting high their individual stats shouldn't suffer too much from the 5on5 game getting worse.

Like I already said, the fact that they are the only line that has gotten enough time together to devellop chemistry can't also be ignored. Another thing, they are the only line (well the Plek-Darche duo seem have a longer leach too now) that gets thrown out there no matter how they're playing. they can be getting killed at ES, they'll still get the ice time and PP time to make up for it in the end.

I also don't actually remember if the whole line clicked the first time they were put together (highly possible since they were playing pretty easy minutes at the beginning) but I think it's interesting that, when people mention how Cole was invisible in the first few games, they completely forget that he actually began the season centered by DD (with Darche but still).

But, from what I see, they are good enough as a second matchup line (even dominating at times), the main problem I have is if you're gonna put the 2 wingers that are best suited for tough minutes on the same line, well it better be on the main matchup line and they aren't good enough (not consistently anyway, Plek hasn't been perfect this year but when he gets the wingers to do that job he's pretty consistant ) in possession in hard minutes to be considered a main matchup line (and having a line that can be a possession beast against hard oppossition is much more a characteristic of a good team than having a couple of players with a nice stat sheet) and DD should ideally be used in an exploitation role anyway. Wich is actually great, not that many team have a guy as offensively talented as DD as an option to use in such a role, especially one that can be expected to keep his head above water when needed in a more difficult one.

Even if you get rid of Plekanec (wich would be stupid but whatever) and get that hypothetical Big Number 1 Center TM well Cole and Pacioretty will probably play with him(good luck finding 2 wingers better than them on the market or without stupid overpayment in a trade).

Except if you think Getzlaf (an example) wouldn't see his ES numbers go down playing with Darche and Bourque (he will, he'll still be an awesome player but the people that want a 75+pts center won't get the results they want on paper) so the whole trade Plek (+ a boatload of assets we can't afford to lose) and go with a Big Number 1 Center TM-DD-Eller as a center line (not necessarely you but I've heard that too much this season even from serious media people (* in a world where people take Francois Gagnon seriously)), doesn't make any sense if the goal of such a thing is to keep Pac-DD-Cole as a second line. Not to mention, there is no way Big Number 1 Center TM wouldn't center the first PP unit. Then what, we trade him because he's taking DD's place there?

I actually like the Pac-DD-Cole line... in a vacuum. But from what I've observed, no matter how nice their stat sheets look, the team hasn't really been anything impressive in puck possession since being completely dependant on that line. They'll have their huge games, like I previously said, but the way the lineup is currently constructed ( to be completely dependant on that line offensively), if they don't, we're boned. Actually, the way the whole lineup revolves around them kind of screams «bad team line». It was good enough for a while with the injuries (the whole Plek covering the lack of a second D pairing thing..) but it's like Cunneyworth came in, saw that this line was the only one giving consistant offence but he didn't actually bother trying to understand why... so now he's absolutely scared of separating them in case whatever he does doesn't work and he ends up barely giving any other line he tries the chance to actually devellop any kind of chemistry.

Basically I think all three are good enough to be usefull players on a good team (yes even DD ) but I don't think a good team would use them the way we do. I do like the line as a PP unit though I'd probably separate Cole and Patches since they're both at their best in the same spot but I have nothing against something like DD-Cole or DD-Patches on the first unit.

I think I might have given a longer anwser than what you expected here.
To a bunch of questions you didn't even ask too, just hope it made a bit of sense at least.

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02-21-2012, 11:35 AM
  #303
Pleky Roks
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Talk to me when he finishes with more POINTS for the next 4 seasons than those guys....and not just more assists for 1 season!

Don't get me wrong....Its great to see DD have a good season....but I gotta wonder how much better Cole and Pacioretty would have been with a big, #1 centerman between them instead of DD.

There is always 2 sides to the coin. If DD goes on to put up 60-70 points in the next 4 seasons....then we will have reason to celebrate....but until then, its just a player having a good season and it may never happen again.

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02-21-2012, 11:41 AM
  #304
ChuckyToGally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleky Roks View Post
Talk to me when he finishes with more POINTS for the next 4 seasons than those guys....and not just more assists for 1 season!

Don't get me wrong....Its great to see DD have a good season....but I gotta wonder how much better Cole and Pacioretty would have been with a big, #1 centerman between them instead of DD.

There is always 2 sides to the coin. If DD goes on to put up 60-70 points in the next 4 seasons....then we will have reason to celebrate....but until then, its just a player having a good season and it may never happen again.
So the same could be said about Pacioretty?

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02-21-2012, 11:50 AM
  #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleky Roks View Post
Talk to me when he finishes with more POINTS for the next 4 seasons than those guys....and not just more assists for 1 season!

Don't get me wrong....Its great to see DD have a good season....but I gotta wonder how much better Cole and Pacioretty would have been with a big, #1 centerman between them instead of DD.

There is always 2 sides to the coin. If DD goes on to put up 60-70 points in the next 4 seasons....then we will have reason to celebrate....but until then, its just a player having a good season and it may never happen again.
This bothers me. I was never a fan boy and doubted him prior to the season but he has been playing lights out this year. Give credit where credit is due. Let's also not forget that last year, without Cole and Max, he put up 22 points in 43 games. Everyone is ragging on him saying that he wouldn't be doing well if it weren't for his wingers but I think they are benefiting from playing with him as much as he is with them. I can't even count the number of goals both of them have scored because of great passes from DD. They are both on pace for 30 goal seasons, which would be career highs for both of them. I think Desharnais is a big part of that and isn't getting the credit he deserves. I for one am happy for him and look forward to seeing how he continues to progress and develop.

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02-21-2012, 11:52 AM
  #306
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And this is what my face looked like


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Old
02-21-2012, 11:56 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by MJG View Post
This bothers me. I was never a fan boy and doubted him prior to the season but he has been playing lights out this year. Give credit where credit is due. Let's also not forget that last year, without Cole and Max, he put up 22 points in 43 games. Everyone is ragging on him saying that he wouldn't be doing well if it weren't for his wingers but I think they are benefiting from playing with him as much as he is with them. I can't even count the number of goals both of them have scored because of great passes from DD. They are both on pace for 30 goal seasons, which would be career highs for both of them. I think Desharnais is a big part of that and isn't getting the credit he deserves. I for one am happy for him and look forward to seeing how he continues to progress and develop.
My thoughts, exactly.

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02-21-2012, 12:14 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Pleky Roks View Post
Talk to me when he finishes with more POINTS for the next 4 seasons than those guys....and not just more assists for 1 season!

Don't get me wrong....Its great to see DD have a good season....but I gotta wonder how much better Cole and Pacioretty would have been with a big, #1 centerman between them instead of DD.

There is always 2 sides to the coin. If DD goes on to put up 60-70 points in the next 4 seasons....then we will have reason to celebrate....but until then, its just a player having a good season and it may never happen again.
DD would have to put up 60-70 points per season in the next 4 seasons, and then you'll be happy? What if he puts up 50 pts per in the next 4? That would be no good?

Some people just want to see the kid fail, that's weird.

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02-21-2012, 12:57 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by Franked View Post
DD would have to put up 60-70 points per season in the next 4 seasons, and then you'll be happy? What if he puts up 50 pts per in the next 4? That would be no good?

Some people just want to see the kid fail, that's weird.
Because he is small and a local "French" boy...


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02-21-2012, 02:01 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Franked View Post
DD would have to put up 60-70 points per season in the next 4 seasons, and then you'll be happy? What if he puts up 50 pts per in the next 4? That would be no good?

Some people just want to see the kid fail,
that's weird.
Seems to be the case. Quite bizarre as other than DD, there are only 4 other forwards of the 15 who have played 20 games for the team this year who would seem to be essential to move forward. The others are Pacioretty, Cole, Plekanec, Leblanc. Eller and Gionta are probably worth keeping as well. The rest are all easily replaceable. Most of these should probably be shown the door-if the team wants to become a winner.

I'd love to see someone who can tell me who could replace DD for the same price. I think I'll be waiting a long, long time.


Last edited by Cyclones Rock: 02-21-2012 at 02:09 PM.
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Old
02-21-2012, 02:16 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I don't expect DD to win the Art Ross/Hart/Lindsay any time soon, and I doubt I'm alone there. I know you guys (I'd guess either French and/or short of stature yourself, but don't dwell on those assumptions please) probably just want to hope the best for the guy, but we're talking two completely different calibre of player here. Yes, St. Louis is (not just "was") just plain better in too many departments to allow any kind of similarities/comparison to be drawn from everything we've seen from both over their careers.
"... I know you guys (I'd guess either French and/or short of stature yourself, but don't dwell on those assumptions please) probably just want to hope the best for the guy..."

?!

Yeah... and the people who cheers for Brendan Gallagher are short English dudes right? I hope you were drunk when you wrote that!

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02-21-2012, 04:12 PM
  #312
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Great little player. Making all the haters eat crow.

Though some of them refuse to eat it just yet.

He's been PPG going back like 25-30 games. He's the best passer and the most creative guy offensively on the team.

He's determined as hell and wins himself lots of battles.

Added bonus...he's French! Though I'm not French myself I do see the value in having some francophones on Les Habitants. Especially talented ones like DD not plugs like Lapierre, Pouliot and Darche.

Love ya DD keep proving the haters wrong.

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02-21-2012, 05:06 PM
  #313
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I really hate the fact that the obsession with getting that coveted "Big #1 Center" is clouding peoples vision of DD's superb talent. Who is this big center that is going to produce at such a high rate that it would make sense to pay a large price for him? Desharnais makes $850k. Every player above him in the stats category is basically unavailable or too expensive for us. I think our first line is in good shape. I'd rather we built a stronger defense and add a better top 6 piece (Get rid of Bourque or AK) and then round out our bottom 6 with another grinder.

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02-21-2012, 05:50 PM
  #314
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This kid got 22 points in 43 games in his first real play at the NHL level, and now hes on pace for maybe 60 points but at least likely to be well in the 50s. His wingers each have a shot at 30 goals. We didnt use a draft pick on him, didnt trade assets for him as he was an FA signing and we are paying him $850000. This is a steal. Be happy we have him. I dont know what his ceiling is but Ill enjoy watching him.

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