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Will Bryzgalov ever be worth his contract? All Bryz Discussion Here. Part Three

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Old
02-21-2012, 11:58 AM
  #751
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Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
Sounds like our goalie didnt get enough shots on the opponents goal...lazy *******.

Kidding aside...I agree with you JXC. Team game...there are multiple parties to blame on almost every goal...but goalie is the scapegoat here...always.
It is understandable, I mean I get where the hate comes from. People idolize Timonen and Giroux and Laviolette and hence they are simply not inclined to highlight their foibles. Giroux assisted on both SH goals. Timonen's play was, well, ick. And there can be no analysis of that game without questioning what precisely Laviolette did during the second intermission.

But if one loves those guys, well then a scapegoat is, like you said, necessary.

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02-21-2012, 11:59 AM
  #752
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Too simple.
Too true.

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02-21-2012, 12:01 PM
  #753
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Because I was there. The crowd booed Bryz.
I guess, then, it sounded like "Booooo-ze!!!!" or some other specifically targeted shouts of derision. Sure, if you say a great proportion of fans were yelling, "Bryz, you suck!" I'll agree with your point of view. I'd be surprised, though, that there was a consensus among fans there that Bryz was to blame on that play. Just my opinion, as I wasn't there.

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Didn't the puck go between arm and body? If so, that would argue that he made himself too big.
Nitpicky, but I'll admit I left myself open for such a wide interpretation of "big". Watch Thomas (for one good example) play a SO and how he is so effective in becoming a sliding wall when the skater tries to deke in close. My point is that Cooke was fighting the puck, minimizing his ability to make a good deking move. At that moment, the goaltender can allow himself to be more aggressive in going right for the puck and being a wall.

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Too simple.
Whatever that means as a response to my pointing out the exact definition of "outplaying" was satisfied.

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02-21-2012, 12:01 PM
  #754
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Because I was there. The crowd booed Bryz.
Did you stand up and cheer his performance like the righteous, non-conformist, and highly intelligent contrarian you are? After all, you understand what "good" and "bad" goaltending is better than every other Flyers fan.

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02-21-2012, 12:03 PM
  #755
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Did you stand up and cheer his performance like the righteous, non-conformist, and highly intelligent contrarian you are? After all, you understand what "good" and "bad" goaltending is better than every other Flyers fan.
I thought I heard a "We Wants Randy Jones" chant by someone behind me.

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02-21-2012, 12:06 PM
  #756
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It is understandable, I mean I get where the hate comes from. People idolize Timonen and Giroux and Laviolette and hence they are simply not inclined to highlight their foibles. Giroux assisted on both SH goals. Timonen's play was, well, ick. And there can be no analysis of that game without questioning what precisely Laviolette did during the second intermission.

But if one loves those guys, well then a scapegoat is, like you said, necessary.
Let's talk about patterns. Giroux currently stands second overall in points, and has been a huge reason for the Flyers' success this season. Timonen has been a stalwart on defense for years and continues to anchor the D. Both had uncharacteristically horrible games, though I will say that Giroux's efforts have been worse of late than the early part of the season.

Bryz, OTOH, has been consistently mediocre this season and didn't change that opinion with his effort. Who deserves relatively more scorn from the fans?

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02-21-2012, 12:06 PM
  #757
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Originally Posted by nitroglycerin View Post
Jagr put both shots above MAF shoulder, a foot or so to the right of his left ear the toughest spot there is.
Well then MAF went down to soon.

That's what I'm saying. Our skaters score goal-scorer's goals. Our opponents just pot softies.

It doesn't make any sense.

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1 and 2nd. On 1st he was cheating on 2nd. I do not even want to remember 2nd Staal’s goal.
Staal's was dreadful.

The first goal was a NHL skater shooting under the dot. Oftentimes they will cash those in. Jagr did, on his second shot, under the dot, short side. Sniper.

All of this covers up for the real issue.

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02-21-2012, 12:12 PM
  #758
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Giroux currently stands second overall in points, and has been a huge reason for the Flyers' success this season. Timonen has been a stalwart on defense for years and continues to anchor the D.
They've been getting outplayed by their opponents. Both of them.

The proof? The Flyers lost.

(See?)

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Bryz, OTOH, has been consistently mediocre this season and didn't change that opinion with his effort. Who deserves relatively more scorn from the fans?
I don't believe someone needs to deserve scorn.

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02-21-2012, 12:13 PM
  #759
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So, you just scorn people for no reason?

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02-21-2012, 12:16 PM
  #760
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I know everyone hates Bryzgalov and all. Just thought I would go to the statistics:

Post all star game. 7 games played, 2-1-2, 1.76 GAA, .929 save percentage with 1 shutout. Coming off the flu (which is bad enough to keep Jaromir Jagr out of the lineup, not easy to do) he is terrible 1 game. So was Bob. And this is the proof he needs to be run out of town?

IMO - Bryz is a very good goalie who is better than most here believe. Bryz is NOT as good as most WANTED HIM TO BE! He is not worth 50 million. BUT, he might just be good enough. I am firmly sticking behind him this year as this is YEAR ONE of 9, so WHY NOT! If he gets hot, as he has done MANY TIMES throughout his career, then we have a team to win it all.

He isn't unproven like Leighton. He isn't young like Bob was last year. He is an established goalie who was runner up for the Vezina 2 years ago. He isn't a bum. He isn't terrible. He is a star goalie on a new team in a new system and he has been good for months. Lets see if he continues the stats of January and February. Especially with the upgraded D.

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02-21-2012, 12:18 PM
  #761
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Giroux has had multiple "brieresque" moments on defense this year....he's been terrible. Had a breakdown on buff goal the other night.
It's fine..he's young...and it's to be somewhat expected....HOPEFULLY one of our vets is lighting him up for it.
Every player makes mistakes...just man up take the blame and try to improve.

The problem is if this is just ignored...

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02-21-2012, 12:19 PM
  #762
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I agree that the meaning of 'soft goal' might be a little broader for some people. The Staal goal was a soft goal. The first Cooke goal...might not be soft, but very stoppable. Ditto the third goal.

Even in a vacuum, the guy hasn't had a very good season -- really by any reasonable goalie standard and certainly not when compared to league average. His numbers have improved, but overall, I would say decent. I don't think the Flyers are a very good team defensively, especially when looking at our forwards (Sean Couturier, who isn't of legal drinking age, is our best).

Here's the thing about Bryzgalov: when he signed that contract (yes, we should blame Snider and Holmgren for giving it to him), he signed on to be the guy in Philadelphia. He is being paid and treated as someone who should be able to 1) avoid 'losing' a game for the Flyers [think Leighton] 2) keep the Flyers in every game, 3) make easy saves 4) make saves that most goalies should make 5) make saves that the best goalies should make, and 6), steal a game here or there.

In a vacuum, of course it's unreasonable to expect a random goalie to fulfil those standards. With that contract, though, there are expectations. He knew it when he signed on, and really, he hasn't held up his part of the bargain. I don't think anybody could look at those 6 points above and say that he's done them on a consistent basis. Does he deserve more help in front of him? I think so. But this is a thread specifically about Bryzgalov and his play. He has played very well at points this season, but as I noted, he's not getting paid to show up here or there.

I'd also like to add that the psychological effect that his play has shouldn't be underestimated. Anybody who's ever played can attest to how much it ****ing sucks when you play a man perfectly and then the goalie lets in a shot like Staal's the other day. One of the most deflating, draining things that can happen in hockey.

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02-21-2012, 12:20 PM
  #763
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Timonen has been this teams best defenseman hands down. Not only do you see it when you watch him play, but he leads ALL advanced stats categories... He looks a lot better than last season and stats and play show it.

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02-21-2012, 12:23 PM
  #764
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Well then MAF went down to soon.

That's what I'm saying. Our skaters score goal-scorer's goals. Our opponents just pot softies.

It doesn't make any sense.
You are saying that to justify your shaky opinion. This is what butterfly goalies do now days. If it was 1980 he would stand his ground. Still this is the toughest shot for any goalie to stop. There is no comparison.

And no.. I said he gave up Cookes 1st goal because he was cheating. Anticipating the pass. Watch the replay.

3rd goal I will not blame him entirely but he just stood there. I mean seriously. He did nothing on 3rd goal either. Watch replay again. Can this guy make a save?
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The first goal was a NHL skater shooting under the dot. Oftentimes they will cash those in. Jagr did, on his second shot, under the dot, short side. Sniper. All of this covers up for the real issue.
There is an issue with D with two rookies and some turnovers, we have some very young forwards too but a lot of the goals are plain freaking soft. I mean this guy is 31-32 in GAA and 41 in SVPCTG.. It's not just our D. It's not even played well but was outplayed by a better goalie.

He is having a very bad season because he is way too heavy and came unprepared for this season.

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02-21-2012, 12:25 PM
  #765
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I agree that the meaning of 'soft goal' might be a little broader for some people. The Staal goal was a soft goal. The first Cooke goal...might not be soft, but very stoppable. Ditto the third goal.
And when you do not stop a single one of them people start booing.

I mean if he would stopped just one. If Staals goal did not happen Ilya would be in the game..

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02-21-2012, 12:28 PM
  #766
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And when you do not stop a single one of them people start booing.

I mean if he would stopped just one. If Staals goal did not happen Ilya would be in the game..
IT was his first game back from the Flu and he was still feeling weak. Perhaps we should give him a mulligan? I mean, his numbers are very good post all star break. NO?

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02-21-2012, 12:28 PM
  #767
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Timonen has been this teams best defenseman hands down. Not only do you see it when you watch him play, but he leads ALL advanced stats categories... He looks a lot better than last season and stats and play show it.
There is no doubt on this...he's been great every season since coming here...he's excellent on the pp point...he settles the puck down under pressure and makes good passes all the time (doesn't show up on the stat sheet).

He's not infallible tho, nobody is.

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02-21-2012, 12:33 PM
  #768
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There is an issue with D with two rookies and some turnovers, we have some very young forwards too but a lot of the goals are plain freaking soft. I mean this guy is 31-32 in GAA and 41 in SVPCTG.. It's not just our D.
And I'll argue both of those stats are products of team defense...not just goalies performance.

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02-21-2012, 12:34 PM
  #769
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Who needs to scan threads? A couple weeks back Bryz got criticized for being "outplayed" in a game in which he posted a shutout.
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This is precisely my point.

Flyers fans really don't know what good goaltending is.

And, it should be added, the goalie is often a suitable scapegoat for skaters who many Flyers fans worship. For instance, that last game vs. Pens - it is more palatable for a lot of fans to blame Bryz for surrendering a breakaway goal than it would be to criticize Giroux and Timonen for sloppy and lazy play.

Giroux makes a bad pass,
Timonen misplays it,
Timonen doesn't hustle back,
the result is a breakaway,
score.

The crowd boos the goalie.
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Well then MAF went down to soon.

That's what I'm saying. Our skaters score goal-scorer's goals. Our opponents just pot softies.

It doesn't make any sense.

Staal's was dreadful.

The first goal was a NHL skater shooting under the dot. Oftentimes they will cash those in. Jagr did, on his second shot, under the dot, short side. Sniper.
completely agreed on all points.

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02-21-2012, 12:35 PM
  #770
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IT was his first game back from the Flu and he was still feeling weak. Perhaps we should give him a mulligan? I mean, his numbers are very good post all star break. NO?
Eh, I guess it does come down to all these mulligans he is getting. Got a mulligan after the WC game. Got a mulligan after he is sick. And to some, he gets a mulligan for the whole season.

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02-21-2012, 12:36 PM
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There is no doubt on this...he's been great every season since coming here...he's excellent on the pp point...he settles the puck down under pressure and makes good passes all the time (doesn't show up on the stat sheet).

He's not infallible tho, nobody is.
Absolutely. And it was partly his fault for the goal (as was Giroux and Breezy's faults also). The comment was mostly made though because JXC just seems to attack certain players, especially players that a majority of us on here like. People disliked Stevens. He loved Stevens. People disliked Jones. He loved Jones. People liked Lavy. He dislikes Lavy. People dislike Breezy. He likes Breezy. Etc...etc...etc. And thats fine. There are a handful of others on this board that do that, but it degrades a debate when opinions are stated as facts to support their side.

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02-21-2012, 12:41 PM
  #772
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They've been getting outplayed by their opponents. Both of them.

The proof? The Flyers lost.

(See?)
I see you're not a big advocate of context. My point covered the season to date. You contracted it to one game. I used the statement "The proof? The Flyers lost." in context of a single game in which you contested the use of the word "outplayed".

There's a difference in our streams of argument here. This is a huge logic problem, overall, in this type of debate: we expand and contract our points at will from a single sequence in play to an entire career, often to contest the same statement. Apples and oranges. If I were to break my feelings about Bryz down, it would be:
CAREER: I like his style of play and he has been a very good goaltender. Thus, I expect more from him.
SEASON: He has been mediocre overall, though with some really good games and some very poor ones. For the contract signed, he has been a big disappointment to date, and I hope he turns things around.
GAME: Bryz gave up one very weak goal (2nd), and two goals that he could have played better on. The third goal looked worse from his perspective because he gave up the awful SH one moments before.

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02-21-2012, 12:51 PM
  #773
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
I know everyone hates Bryzgalov and all. Just thought I would go to the statistics:

Post all star game. 7 games played, 2-1-2, 1.76 GAA, .929 save percentage with 1 shutout. Coming off the flu (which is bad enough to keep Jaromir Jagr out of the lineup, not easy to do) he is terrible 1 game. So was Bob. And this is the proof he needs to be run out of town?

IMO - Bryz is a very good goalie who is better than most here believe. Bryz is NOT as good as most WANTED HIM TO BE! He is not worth 50 million. BUT, he might just be good enough. I am firmly sticking behind him this year as this is YEAR ONE of 9, so WHY NOT! If he gets hot, as he has done MANY TIMES throughout his career, then we have a team to win it all.

He isn't unproven like Leighton. He isn't young like Bob was last year. He is an established goalie who was runner up for the Vezina 2 years ago. He isn't a bum. He isn't terrible. He is a star goalie on a new team in a new system and he has been good for months. Lets see if he continues the stats of January and February. Especially with the upgraded D.
Thank you. Some much needed perspective. And, in reality, the team has to figure out a way to get him back to his game - it's not like we can waive him to the Phantoms...

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02-21-2012, 12:56 PM
  #774
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And I'll argue both of those stats are products of team defense...not just goalies performance.
and I will say you have no clue.
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
IT was his first game back from the Flu and he was still feeling weak. Perhaps we should give him a mulligan? I mean, his numbers are very good post all star break. NO?
He will be in the net. Not like we have a choice about it.

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02-21-2012, 01:02 PM
  #775
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
I know everyone hates Bryzgalov and all. Just thought I would go to the statistics:

Post all star game. 7 games played, 2-1-2, 1.76 GAA, .929 save percentage with 1 shutout. Coming off the flu (which is bad enough to keep Jaromir Jagr out of the lineup, not easy to do) he is terrible 1 game. So was Bob. And this is the proof he needs to be run out of town?

IMO - Bryz is a very good goalie who is better than most here believe. Bryz is NOT as good as most WANTED HIM TO BE! He is not worth 50 million. BUT, he might just be good enough. I am firmly sticking behind him this year as this is YEAR ONE of 9, so WHY NOT! If he gets hot, as he has done MANY TIMES throughout his career, then we have a team to win it all.

He isn't unproven like Leighton. He isn't young like Bob was last year. He is an established goalie who was runner up for the Vezina 2 years ago. He isn't a bum. He isn't terrible. He is a star goalie on a new team in a new system and he has been good for months. Lets see if he continues the stats of January and February. Especially with the upgraded D.
pffft don't bring any facts to the thread.......

found this earlier.

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