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Nash-ty Rumors Part IV: The Longest Week

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02-21-2012, 02:58 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by Vidic15 View Post
If he's not qualified, he's a UFA?
That's correct.

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02-21-2012, 03:00 PM
  #252
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That's why I say treat Nash as a rental and trade him away in June (this is assuming that his NMC becomes void upon being traded, like has been the case with some other contracts).
That's a possibility, I dunno. We'd then be replacing Dubi with Kreider next year...I'm tempted by that reasoning, but do you think Sather would acuire him just to flip him later?

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02-21-2012, 03:02 PM
  #253
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Dubi has nine lives on this team. We've been waiting for him to break out for years now. Fact of the matter is, at his best, he is half the player Nash is offensively.

Dubinsky did have a breakout year last season. I'm inclined to believe this year is more of a fluke than last season was, as his S% didn't jump last season to some ridiculous number, but this season it's dropped off the map.


Nash: GP G A PTS +/- PIM Hits Blkshots PPG PPA SHG SHA GWG SOG S%
2010-11 75 32 34 66 2 34 91 19 6 8 0 0 7 305 .105

Dubinsky:
2010-11 77 24 30 54 -3 100 141 31 4 7 2 2 2 202 .119



How is Dubinsky not half the player Nash is offensively? Do you think all those hits were in the defensive zone? Does him bringing offense to SH situations not count as offense?

Do you want to go into the line-ups that surrounded both players? The majority of that scoring came on a line with AA and Cally…. hardly the benefit of offensive wizardry or dynamos.

I honestly think that people clamoring for Nash are going to be bitterly disappointed at exactly what elevl of upgrade he is over Dubi offensively, and that his game as a whole is not an upgrade from Dubinsky at all.

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02-21-2012, 03:04 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by SlingshotVv View Post
Dubinsky did have a breakout year last season. I'm inclined to believe this year is more of a fluke than last season was, as his S% didn't jump last season to some ridiculous number, but this season it's dropped off the map.


Nash: GP G A PTS +/- PIM Hits Blkshots PPG PPA SHG SHA GWG SOG S%
2010-11 75 32 34 66 2 34 91 19 6 8 0 0 7 305 .105

Dubinsky:
2010-11 77 24 30 54 -3 100 141 31 4 7 2 2 2 202 .119



How is Dubinsky not half the player Nash is offensively? Do you think all those hits were in the defensive zone? Does him bringing offense to SH situations not count as offense?

Do you want to go into the line-ups that surrounded both players? The majority of that scoring came on a line with AA and Cally…. hardly the benefit of offensive wizardry or dynamos.

I honestly think that people clamoring for Nash are going to be bitterly disappointed at exactly what elevl of upgrade he is over Dubi offensively, and that his game as a whole is not an upgrade from Dubinsky at all.
Nice sample size.

How about showing the rest of Nash' career stats.

Or just having basic hockey knowledge in general, you would know Nash is ****ing elite compared to Dubinsky, in everyway possible. Not even a question.

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02-21-2012, 03:04 PM
  #255
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Is there any legit rumors out there besides these worthless speculations?
This. would be nice if there were some

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02-21-2012, 03:06 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by SlingshotVv View Post
Dubinsky did have a breakout year last season. I'm inclined to believe this year is more of a fluke than last season was, as his S% didn't jump last season to some ridiculous number, but this season it's dropped off the map.


Nash: GP G A PTS +/- PIM Hits Blkshots PPG PPA SHG SHA GWG SOG S%
2010-11 75 32 34 66 2 34 91 19 6 8 0 0 7 305 .105

Dubinsky:
2010-11 77 24 30 54 -3 100 141 31 4 7 2 2 2 202 .119



How is Dubinsky not half the player Nash is offensively? Do you think all those hits were in the defensive zone? Does him bringing offense to SH situations not count as offense?

Do you want to go into the line-ups that surrounded both players? The majority of that scoring came on a line with AA and Cally…. hardly the benefit of offensive wizardry or dynamos.

I honestly think that people clamoring for Nash are going to be bitterly disappointed at exactly what elevl of upgrade he is over Dubi offensively, and that his game as a whole is not an upgrade from Dubinsky at all.
AA and Cally are both better than anybody Nash has played with, defensively and offensively.

I think the more telling stat was the one that Boyle Knows Santa posted a while ago, in that in his last 100 games Dubi has only posted 20 goals or something like that.

He had a ridiculous start to last year, plus had a ton of empty net goals. I do like Dubi but I always maintained he needed to upgrade over his last season to be worth his contract. He didn't, and thus he's really not.

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02-21-2012, 03:09 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by nevesis View Post
Nice sample size.

How about showing the rest of Nash' career stats.

Or just having basic hockey knowledge in general, you would know Nash is ****ing elite compared to Dubinsky, in everyway possible. Not even a question.
How is 65 pts elite? Plus Dubi was just coming into his own as Nash was dropping off. Also consider Dubi put up 12 fewer points in a defensive system.

Say Dubi puts up 50 pts next year and Nash puts up 65...is that worth the 3.6m cap difference?

And average Nash's pts per season...hardly elite. He's not an 80 point guy...and those people making excuses for him saying they think he will magically become one are just flat out wrong. He's had a 9 year career...a lot of sample size to go on there.

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02-21-2012, 03:09 PM
  #258
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Is there any legit rumors out there besides these worthless speculations?
At this point all anyone seems to know is that Nash will waive his NTC for 5 teams, the Rangers are one of them, the Flyers and Bruins aren't interested, and the Kings have made an offer involving Bernier.

Talking heads are calling the Rangers frontrunners.

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02-21-2012, 03:10 PM
  #259
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Sure,Dubi's defensive play and cycling is nice, but for 4.2 million, I'm expecting someone to be able to put the puck into the net more than once in a blue moon.

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02-21-2012, 03:11 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by SlingshotVv View Post
Dubinsky did have a breakout year last season. I'm inclined to believe this year is more of a fluke than last season was, as his S% didn't jump last season to some ridiculous number, but this season it's dropped off the map.


Nash: GP G A PTS +/- PIM Hits Blkshots PPG PPA SHG SHA GWG SOG S%
2010-11 75 32 34 66 2 34 91 19 6 8 0 0 7 305 .105

Dubinsky:
2010-11 77 24 30 54 -3 100 141 31 4 7 2 2 2 202 .119



How is Dubinsky not half the player Nash is offensively? Do you think all those hits were in the defensive zone? Does him bringing offense to SH situations not count as offense?

Do you want to go into the line-ups that surrounded both players? The majority of that scoring came on a line with AA and Cally…. hardly the benefit of offensive wizardry or dynamos.

I honestly think that people clamoring for Nash are going to be bitterly disappointed at exactly what elevl of upgrade he is over Dubi offensively, and that his game as a whole is not an upgrade from Dubinsky at all.
Just to play devils advocate because I don't think Nash is coming here...but a better comparison would be using Nash's best season since you used Dubi's best or the same career year for both players.

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02-21-2012, 03:12 PM
  #261
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Nash hasn't topped 67 pts in the last 3 years.


*Year Team GP G A Pts +/- PIM Hits BkS PPG PPA SHG SHA GW SOG Pct *
*2002-03 CLS 74 17 22 39 -27 78 N/A N/A 6 10 0 0 2 154 .110 *
*2003-04 CLS 80 41 16 57 -35 87 N/A N/A 19 10 0 0 7 269 .152 *
*2005-06 CLS 54 31 23 54 5 51 N/A N/A 11 8 0 0 4 170 .182 *
*2006-07 CLS 75 27 30 57 -8 73 N/A N/A 9 13 1 2 5 228 .118 *
*2007-08 CLS 80 38 31 69 2 95 N/A N/A 10 12 4 0 6 329 .116 *
*2008-09 CLS 78 40 39 79 11 52 N/A N/A 6 13 5 1 5 263 .152 *
*2009-10 CLS 76 33 34 67 -2 58 121 25 10 12 2 2 6 254 .130 *
*2010-11 CLS 75 32 34 66 2 34 91 19 6 8 0 0 7 305 .105 *
*2011-12 CLS 59 19 21 40 -23 30 91 13 4 10 0 0 1 226 .084 *
*Career * 651 278 250 528 -75 558 303 57 81 96 12 5 43 2198 .126 *

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02-21-2012, 03:12 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
I don't mind to get Stamkos, but he is not available. Nash is better than Stamkos. In fact, Nash is better than anyone to fit our needs. Stamkos just scores more. We need upgrade offensively, which is more than scoring. Nash is a complete PF package, which Stamkos is not. At this point in time I'd take him over Ovechkin.
Nash is better than Stamkos? I don't see it.

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02-21-2012, 03:13 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I think this is an important point.

Ive seen several posters making it a point to say "NO!!!! dont do it, when does a big-name acquisition ever work out in NY?!!!!"

Well, 2 things:

1. A ton of the big names brought in over the last 15 years or so could be foreseen as a failure the moment they were brought over. Whether it be age, injury history, or simply overpaying for player who werent that good - it was always something. Nash's talent and young age are undeniable. Theres plenty to worry about but, in this case, superstition isn't on the list.

2. Whether you like it or not, the Rangers are going to need to build the top of their lineup through free agency. They did it with Drury/Gomez/Redden and wiffed badly. Gaborik and Richards have worked out better. Where the Rangers draft, you cant be expecting to fill these holes through the system. It sure seems like the organizational philosophy it to build a strong core from the goal outward, and fill in the top-end talent through free agency/trades
Well said. Agreed on both points.

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Originally Posted by NYRangers16 View Post
To me I don't have a problem with a big money guy as long as the production is there. I do have an issue with a 65 pt guy on a 7.8m cap hit. The only guys who should be paid that are the 80-100 pt guys or the truly elite goalies. Gabby is borderline worth the 7.5m cap hit but we needed something back then so I suck it up and enjoy his goals and elite skill. But at least he's a PPG player. If we were getting Stamkos, Malkin, etc then I'd gladly make them fit in the cap...you make it work with those types of guys. But Nash isn't on that level so to me it's about the production vs cap hit...you only have so much cap room...you gotta squeeze every last bit out of every dollar.
The points-per-dollar stance is a tough sell for me. On the one hand, yes, I agree that his contract is exorbitant for the line he's putting down on the stat sheet. However, for a guy who is billed as a premier goal scorer, he's been very good in that department. It's hard to pile on the assists to boost your point total when you're playing with a bunch of plugs. So yeah, on the one hand he's a "65 point player", but on the other, he's managed to ensure that ~50% of those points were goals year after year. Not too many guys in this league can put up 40 goals in a season, and he's done it twice and nearly added a 3rd time to the list. The natural ability is there, he just needs more of a supporting cast.

But again, if the Rangers are targeting him, I have to think that they have a plan in place to manage the cap moving forward.

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02-21-2012, 03:14 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by NYRangers16 View Post
Nash hasn't topped 59 pts in the last 4 years.


*Year Team GP G A Pts +/- PIM Hits BkS PPG PPA SHG SHA GW SOG Pct *
*2002-03 CLS 74 17 22 39 -27 78 N/A N/A 6 10 0 0 2 154 .110 *
*2003-04 CLS 80 41 16 57 -35 87 N/A N/A 19 10 0 0 7 269 .152 *
*2005-06 CLS 54 31 23 54 5 51 N/A N/A 11 8 0 0 4 170 .182 *
*2006-07 CLS 75 27 30 57 -8 73 N/A N/A 9 13 1 2 5 228 .118 *
*2007-08 CLS 80 38 31 69 2 95 N/A N/A 10 12 4 0 6 329 .116 *
*2008-09 CLS 78 40 39 79 11 52 N/A N/A 6 13 5 1 5 263 .152 *
*2009-10 CLS 76 33 34 67 -2 58 121 25 10 12 2 2 6 254 .130 *
*2010-11 CLS 75 32 34 66 2 34 91 19 6 8 0 0 7 305 .105 *
*2011-12 CLS 59 19 21 40 -23 30 91 13 4 10 0 0 1 226 .084 *
*Career * 651 278 250 528 -75 558 303 57 81 96 12 5 43 2198 .126 *
He had over 59 just last year....

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02-21-2012, 03:15 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by NYRangers16 View Post
Nash hasn't topped 59 pts in the last 4 years.


*Year Team GP G A Pts +/- PIM Hits BkS PPG PPA SHG SHA GW SOG Pct *
*2002-03 CLS 74 17 22 39 -27 78 N/A N/A 6 10 0 0 2 154 .110 *
*2003-04 CLS 80 41 16 57 -35 87 N/A N/A 19 10 0 0 7 269 .152 *
*2005-06 CLS 54 31 23 54 5 51 N/A N/A 11 8 0 0 4 170 .182 *
*2006-07 CLS 75 27 30 57 -8 73 N/A N/A 9 13 1 2 5 228 .118 *
*2007-08 CLS 80 38 31 69 2 95 N/A N/A 10 12 4 0 6 329 .116 *
*2008-09 CLS 78 40 39 79 11 52 N/A N/A 6 13 5 1 5 263 .152 *
*2009-10 CLS 76 33 34 67 -2 58 121 25 10 12 2 2 6 254 .130 *
*2010-11 CLS 75 32 34 66 2 34 91 19 6 8 0 0 7 305 .105 *
*2011-12 CLS 59 19 21 40 -23 30 91 13 4 10 0 0 1 226 .084 *
*Career * 651 278 250 528 -75 558 303 57 81 96 12 5 43 2198 .126 *
Huh? He hasn't dipped under 65 points since 06-07. I think you're looking at PIMs.

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02-21-2012, 03:15 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by RussianRangersFan View Post
He had over 59 just last year....
had that wrong - edited...

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02-21-2012, 03:16 PM
  #267
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Huh? He hasn't dipped under 65 points since 06-07. I think you're looking at PIMs.
yup sorry bout that..i edited the post. still he topped 70 pts once. and his average is 62 pts a year.

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02-21-2012, 03:16 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by NYRangers16 View Post
How is 65 pts elite? Plus Dubi was just coming into his own as Nash was dropping off. Also consider Dubi put up 12 fewer points in a defensive system.

Say Dubi puts up 50 pts next year and Nash puts up 65...is that worth the 3.6m cap difference?

And average Nash's pts per season...hardly elite. He's not an 80 point guy...and those people making excuses for him saying they think he will magically become one are just flat out wrong. He's had a 9 year career...a lot of sample size to go on there.
He's a shooter not a set up guy if you're looking for a ton of points you aren't gonna find them, look at his goal's by year.

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02-21-2012, 03:18 PM
  #269
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yup sorry bout that..i edited the post. still he topped 70 pts once
On the worst team in the league for many years. Do people not understand this?

Imagine he was on a Detroit? Or Boston? Or Pittsburgh the past few years?

Take all those points, and add A LOT more.

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02-21-2012, 03:20 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by NHRangerfan View Post
He's a shooter not a set up guy if you're looking for a ton of points you aren't gonna find them, look at his goal's by year.
32 goals a year. for 7.8m... don't you want to get those 32 goals cheaper?

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02-21-2012, 03:20 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by SlingshotVv View Post
Dubinsky did have a breakout year last season. I'm inclined to believe this year is more of a fluke than last season was, as his S% didn't jump last season to some ridiculous number, but this season it's dropped off the map.


Nash: GP G A PTS +/- PIM Hits Blkshots PPG PPA SHG SHA GWG SOG S%
2010-11 75 32 34 66 2 34 91 19 6 8 0 0 7 305 .105

Dubinsky:
2010-11 77 24 30 54 -3 100 141 31 4 7 2 2 2 202 .119



How is Dubinsky not half the player Nash is offensively? Do you think all those hits were in the defensive zone? Does him bringing offense to SH situations not count as offense?

Do you want to go into the line-ups that surrounded both players? The majority of that scoring came on a line with AA and Cally…. hardly the benefit of offensive wizardry or dynamos.

I honestly think that people clamoring for Nash are going to be bitterly disappointed at exactly what elevl of upgrade he is over Dubi offensively, and that his game as a whole is not an upgrade from Dubinsky at all.
If your going to put up those stats you need to also add in the fact that Dubi had 5 empty net goals to 3 for Nash. Which realistically puts Nash at 29 and Dubi at 19.

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02-21-2012, 03:22 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by NYRangers16 View Post
32 goals a year. for 7.8m... don't you want to get those 32 goals cheaper?
How many current guys in the NHL have had as many 30+ goal seasons as he has?

And then tell me how many we can get cheaper.

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02-21-2012, 03:22 PM
  #273
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On the worst team in the league for many years. Do people not understand this?

Imagine he was on a Detroit? Or Boston? Or Pittsburgh the past few years?

Take all those points, and add A LOT more.
This almost never happens. Kovalchuk is the same guy on NJ as he was in Atl..Hossa is the same guy in Chi he was everywhere else. I can't think of too many guys who improved their games after 8.5 seasons and suddenly started putting up great stats. Brad is the same guy he was before. Gabby is too.

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02-21-2012, 03:23 PM
  #274
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Nash is a 1st line player.

I don't think anyone here ever projected Dubinsky to be a 1st line player--'most' would categorize him as a top 6 forward and on 'most' teams that's exactly what he would be.

The idea that he's had nine lives here is laughable. He's been a good player--turned into a hard nosed heart and soul type--a guy who works hard in all areas of the ice--is a very good penalty killer, cycles the puck as well as any other forward on the team, can take a hit and maintain control of the puck, hits hard and frequently, will stand up for his teammates though he's a mediocre fighter. He basically earned the contract he signed (relative to what an NHL player makes anyway) and then this season his offensive numbers went south a bit. Considering how the team has performed overall--it's a bit of a so what for me since he's still playing hard.

Is Nash a superior player?--****, yeah. And if a deal involving Dubinsky + gets worked out then we may (depending on what else goes the other way) improve our chances this year.

A couple points. Dubi gets traded--no reason to beat him up. He's played long and hard for this team and that deserves respect.

As for Nash--no two ways about it--his contract kind of sucks. Not saying it's a deal killer but there's only so much beyond a Dubinsky that I'd be willing to offer. One way or the other though they can forget about our top 4 D and as far as I'm concerned they can forget about Kreider. I could give up Erixon. I could give up our 1st and maybe a B-B+ prospect. That's about it.

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02-21-2012, 03:24 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by NHRangerfan View Post
How many current guys in the NHL have had as many 30+ goal seasons as he has?

And then tell me how many we can get cheaper.
That's the challenge...we're 1st in the east..do you really want to trade assets just to "settle" for him? Why the desperation?

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