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Nash-ty Rumors Part IV: The Longest Week

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Old
02-21-2012, 04:25 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
I know.


How about Nash for Dubinsky and Staal???



.
That's a really interesting point you suggest GWOW (not sure if you were serious). It's actually a thought that's been lurking in the back of my head all along. I honestly don't know how I'd feel about that.

Pros: Goes a ways towards addressing the future salary cap problem. The team's been doing fine without the "real Marc Staal" (you can see him making incremental progress, but the fact remains that this year McD and MDZ are much better/more important than Staal). Do we need him with our current stable of defensemen and prospects? The concussion will be a concern until it's not. And you might even be able to squeeze out an additional asset from CLB if you were willing to move Staal.

Cons: It's Marc Staal. He, along with Hank, were the first lights at the end of the re-build tunnel. His value is probably diminished right now due to injury. When fully healthy (likely next year), he's an incredibly valuable commodity as a shut down D-man on a favorable contract (heck, folks last year on this board and the Ducks' agreed that Ryan for Staal straight up was probably fair). I feel like Staal as only PART of a package for Nash feels like overpayment.

But if McD and MDZ (and potentially Erixon) are as good as we think they are, do we then absolutely NEED him...? At some point this stable of defensive assets needs to be used to acquire offensive talent. Thing is, none of us ever considered that the first guy to start to build that stable would be the one...

It's really tough.


Last edited by BrooklynRangersFan: 02-21-2012 at 04:30 PM.
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Old
02-21-2012, 04:26 PM
  #277
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Do people realize that:

Rick Nash would be tied for 3rd on this team in scoring this season (While all of his points have come on the worst team in the NHL)

Rick Nash would have been the Rangers leading scorer last season (While all of his points came playing on a bottom-feeder team)

Rick Nash would have been 2nd on the Rangers in 09/10 (While all of his points came on a terrible CLB team yet again)

Seeing a trend?

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Old
02-21-2012, 04:26 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by NYRangers16 View Post
This almost never happens. Kovalchuk is the same guy on NJ as he was in Atl..Hossa is the same guy in Chi he was everywhere else. I can't think of too many guys who improved their games after 8.5 seasons and suddenly started putting up great stats. Brad is the same guy he was before. Gabby is too.
I'm not saying his point production is going to double, but its ignorant to think that a great player being paired with better line mates is not going to have better production/success.

If anything your point is validated in how dominant those players actually are by themselves. But on a better team, they aren't going to be worse, they are going to be better.

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02-21-2012, 04:26 PM
  #279
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On the worst team in the league for many years. Do people not understand this?

Imagine he was on a Detroit? Or Boston? Or Pittsburgh the past few years?

Take all those points, and add A LOT more.
Add to that, he's not playing/hasn't played with the most skilled offensive players. Who's goals would people expect him to racking up assists on? Seriously. He IS the offense.

These discussions are now just going in circles. The difference between goal scorers and play makers was addressed toward to the end of the last thread. It's getting difficult to sift through the same debates every 6 hours.

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Old
02-21-2012, 04:27 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
Do people realize that:

Rick Nash would be tied for 3rd on this team in scoring this season (While all of his points have come on the worst team in the NHL)

Rick Nash would have been the Rangers leading scorer last season (While all of his points came playing on a bottom-feeder team)

Rick Nash would have been 2nd on the Rangers in 09/10 (While all of his points came on a terrible CLB team yet again)

Seeing a trend?

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02-21-2012, 04:27 PM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
Do people realize that:

Rick Nash would be tied for 3rd on this team in scoring this season (While all of his points have come on the worst team in the NHL)

Rick Nash would have been the Rangers leading scorer last season (While all of his points came playing on a bottom-feeder team)

Rick Nash would have been 2nd on the Rangers in 09/10 (While all of his points came on a terrible CLB team yet again)

Seeing a trend?
Definitely.

Teams with Rich Nash are the worst/terrible/bottom feeders.

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Old
02-21-2012, 04:27 PM
  #282
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IMO, if you are the GM of a team with a reasonable shot at the cup, and have the opportunity to add a player like Rick Nash for a reasonable price, you do it. Yes, hockey is entertainment, but the Stanley Cup is the ultimate goal.

Most seem to agree Dubinsky is bound to go the other way and Girardi, McD and MDZ and Stepan are untouchables. I agree.

However, if Howson would settle for a package with Dubinsky, prospects and picks, ( let's say Erixon, Kreider and a 1st rounder), I'd do it in a heartbeat. I'd even throw in another pick, prospect or marginal player. Rick Nash is an elite player. Kreider, McIlrath, Erixon and the other prospects, well, we just don't know yet. IMO, given the young core on D, I'd say the likes of Erixon and McIlrath are very much expendable.

For those of you being concerned being able to re-sign the young core players: I understand that, but don't really see it as much of a concern. This summer, no problem, NEXT summer it might be a bit tricky, but lot's of time for Sather & Co to come up with a plan. Players will probably be much more willing to take discounts on a team with offensive power like that, and you still have the option to move one of them or one of your big contracts (both scenarios would probably bring a decent return in picks and prospects, refilling the cupboard). The team would still be very, very competitive.

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02-21-2012, 04:29 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
Definitely.

Teams with Rich Nash are the worst/terrible/bottom feeders.
I couldn't help but laugh at that. Well played.

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02-21-2012, 04:32 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
Definitely.

Teams with Rich Nash are the worst/terrible/bottom feeders.
Very well played. You win the Internet for the day!

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02-21-2012, 04:34 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
That's a really interesting point you suggest GWOW (not sure if you were serious). It's actually a thought that's been lurking in the back of my head all along. I honestly don't know how I'd feel about that.

Pros: Goes a ways towards addressing the future salary cap problem. The team's been doing fine without the "real Marc Staal" (you can see him making incremental progress, but the fact remains that this year McD and MDZ are much better/more important than Staal). Do we need him with our current stable of defensemen and prospects? The concussion will be a concern until it's not. And you might even be able to squeeze out an additional asset from CLB if you were willing to move Staal.

Cons: It's Marc Staal. He, along with Hank, were the first lights at the end of the re-build tunnel. His value is probably diminished right now due to injury. When fully healthy (likely next year), he's an incredibly valuable commodity as a shut down D-man on a favorable contract (heck, folks last year on this board and the Ducks' agreed that Ryan for Staal straight up was probably fair). I feel like Staal as only PART of a package for Nash feels like overpayment.

But if McD and MDZ (and potentially Erixon) are as good as we think they are, do we then absolutely NEED him...? At some point this stable of defensive assets needs to be used to acquire offensive talent. Thing is, none of us ever considered that the first guy to start to build that stable would be the one...

It's really tough.
The combo of staal and dubs is better than nash espcially as Staal continues to improve. Dubs could be traded for something really nice if you REALLY wanted to get rid of him in combo with a prospect and a high pick or two. Staal by himself is likely worth the same as Nash in a year. especially considering the cap hit


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Old
02-21-2012, 04:35 PM
  #286
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Honestly, GWOW, with that package Columbus would have to add.

Dubi is a lesser Nash, but Staal would be the best defenseman in that franchises history by a ridiculous margin.

Honestly, I don't trade Staal unless it's for another young top end player on a sweetheart contract, or rather not at all.

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02-21-2012, 04:36 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by JimmyStart View Post
The combo of staal and dubs is better than nash espcially as Staal continues to improve. Dubs could be traded for something really nice if you REALLY wanted to get rid of him in combo with a prospect and a high pick or two. Staal by himself is likely worth the same as Nash in a year. especially considering the cap hit how is this awful thread still going and it's the same garbage being spewed back and forth repeatedly with zero added to the discussion.
Blows my mind how many people are so quick to want to send Staal packing. Short memories.

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02-21-2012, 04:40 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by nevesis View Post
I'm not saying his point production is going to double, but its ignorant to think that a great player being paired with better line mates is not going to have better production/success.

If anything your point is validated in how dominant those players actually are by themselves. But on a better team, they aren't going to be worse, they are going to be better.
None of them have increased their production on the better team. Can you name any player who has improved their production on a better team? Cause I can think of 1...James Neal this year on Pit. But I can't think of any other. Thornton, Kovy, Hossa were the same players they were before..so this idea that Nash is going to be more than a 30+ goal 30+A, 65 pt guy just by coming to us is wrong. It's a theory that has been proven wrong repeatedly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
Add to that, he's not playing/hasn't played with the most skilled offensive players. Who's goals would people expect him to racking up assists on? Seriously. He IS the offense.

These discussions are now just going in circles. The difference between goal scorers and play makers was addressed toward to the end of the last thread. It's getting difficult to sift through the same debates every 6 hours.
You can say this but it's a cop out. 32 goals is good but not elite. 65 pts is good but not elite. 7.8m cap hit demands elite production in my opinion. I'd save our assets for the guy who is paid appropriately. Go pay Anaheim what they want for Ryan, go sign Parise, wait for the next star, or just whatever. But I wouldn't cash in now for this player on this contract. Or just do nothing. We are first in the east and almost 1st in the NHL - we have the system, the strategy, and the players to win now. We don't have to do this.

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Old
02-21-2012, 04:42 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by SPG View Post
Blows my mind how many people are so quick to want to send Staal packing. Short memories.
Would I have done it 1 on one for ryan? Yes I think I might of. Nash is not even bobby ryan and that cap hit is just a negative value

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02-21-2012, 04:42 PM
  #290
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That's the challenge...we're 1st in the east..do you really want to trade assets just to "settle" for him? Why the desperation?
Well you gotta give to get...it all depends on what the assets are

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02-21-2012, 04:45 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
Do people realize that:

Rick Nash would be tied for 3rd on this team in scoring this season (While all of his points have come on the worst team in the NHL)

Rick Nash would have been the Rangers leading scorer last season (While all of his points came playing on a bottom-feeder team)

Rick Nash would have been 2nd on the Rangers in 09/10 (While all of his points came on a terrible CLB team yet again)

Seeing a trend?
ZOMG!!! I did not see that!

Seriously, for me it's not just what we give up for Nash now. That would hurt plenty. My additional concern is how difficult his contract load will make it to sign the young players not given up in this deal.

If you knew that doing this deal would hurt you on the back end. That your chances of signing a McDonagh, a Del Zotto or Cally even would be compromised/threatened...would you do it?

That's why I don't think this happens. In addition to CBJ wanting a goal tender on top of it all. Which we don't have to give them.

I'm not a cap or stats geek, but L.A. would seem to be a much better dance partner than the Rangers.

That's my last damn post in a trade thread until this circus is over next Monday.

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02-21-2012, 04:47 PM
  #292
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Would I have done it 1 on one for ryan? Yes I think I might of. Nash is not even bobby ryan and that cap hit is just a negative value
Ryan is excellent but he can't touch Nash. Nash on the right team is 80+ points a year. Maybe not immediately due to chemistry issues, but that is his ultimate upside on NYR. He has two of the line centers to work with in Richards and Stepan. His cap hit is horrible but it's only a slight overpayment in reality.

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02-21-2012, 04:47 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
Honestly, GWOW, with that package Columbus would have to add.

Dubi is a lesser Nash, but Staal would be the best defenseman in that franchises history by a ridiculous margin.

Honestly, I don't trade Staal unless it's for another young top end player on a sweetheart contract, or rather not at all.
Agreed. I'd at least listen, but if that's the package going to Columbus, I want something else (meaningful) in return from them.

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Old
02-21-2012, 04:48 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by NYRangers16 View Post
None of them have increased their production on the better team. Can you name any player who has improved their production on a better team? Cause I can think of 1...James Neal this year on Pit. But I can't think of any other. Thornton, Kovy, Hossa were the same players they were before..so this idea that Nash is going to be more than a 30+ goal 30+A, 65 pt guy just by coming to us is wrong. It's a theory that has been proven wrong repeatedly.
That really isn't the argument though. It goes without saying that, if surrounded by BETTER talent, you will put forth better numbers.

Nash dominated the 2010 Olympics being surrounded by a bunch of great players. Again, nothing is scientific, comparing this player to that player not improving that much, etc. The comparisons are all apples to oranges.

Columbus has been a TERRIBLE team year after year. Nash has had no one to play with, and through those years, carried the team on his back. Pair him with a bunch of players who are good, and you will have something better.

However, the real argument here is, will it make the team better?

If you are trading Dubinsky, and gaining Nash, does it make you better? Of course it does. Compare those two's statistics next to each other.

Nash is a better player than Dubinsky. If you can swap, and make it work without giving up guys named Kreider, and can work the cap out ok, then why not do it?

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02-21-2012, 04:49 PM
  #295
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This almost never happens. Kovalchuk is the same guy on NJ as he was in Atl..Hossa is the same guy in Chi he was everywhere else. I can't think of too many guys who improved their games after 8.5 seasons and suddenly started putting up great stats. Brad is the same guy he was before. Gabby is too.
No one is going to correct this guy that Ilya has become an exponentially better hockey player in Jersey?

Are you really arguing that playing with better players will not help his game? Or playing on a team where he is not the lone threat so teams cant solely focus on him? Or the likelihood that playing on a contending team over the worst team in his league may give him some added juice? Your argument is illogical and borderline ridiculous

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02-21-2012, 04:50 PM
  #296
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The Only fair way to look at their stats is to base their numbers per 82 games played. That way you take missed games from injuries out of the equation.
Nash averages
35 goals and 31 assists for 66 points per 82 games
Dubi averages
17 goals and 28 assists for 45 pts per 82 games

The 20 point difference isnt all that great for the extra 3.5 million but when 18 of those points are goals it adds quite a bit more weight I think.

Nash stepan gabi
Hags Richards. Cally
AA. Boyle. Prust

Looks pretty dangerous to me

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02-21-2012, 04:50 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
Definitely.

Teams with Rich Nash are the worst/terrible/bottom feeders.
lol, thanks for that! this thread could definitely use some laughs

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02-21-2012, 04:51 PM
  #298
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None of them have increased their production on the better team. Can you name any player who has improved their production on a better team? Cause I can think of 1...James Neal this year on Pit. But I can't think of any other. Thornton, Kovy, Hossa were the same players they were before..so this idea that Nash is going to be more than a 30+ goal 30+A, 65 pt guy just by coming to us is wrong. It's a theory that has been proven wrong repeatedly.



You can say this but it's a cop out. 32 goals is good but not elite. 65 pts is good but not elite. 7.8m cap hit demands elite production in my opinion. I'd save our assets for the guy who is paid appropriately. Go pay Anaheim what they want for Ryan, go sign Parise, wait for the next star, or just whatever. But I wouldn't cash in now for this player on this contract. Or just do nothing. We are first in the east and almost 1st in the NHL - we have the system, the strategy, and the players to win now. We don't have to do this.
Aside from 2 low scoring seasons (05-06 and 06-07) he's been in the Top 20 for goal scoring.

Season Rank
10-11 17
09-10 14
08-09 5
07-08 12
06-07 52
05-06 33
03-04 1 Tied with Kovalchuk and Iginla

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02-21-2012, 04:54 PM
  #299
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You have to figure the subtracts off the roster also and how they would hurt the team.

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02-21-2012, 05:03 PM
  #300
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On the worst team in the league for many years. Do people not understand this?

Imagine he was on a Detroit? Or Boston? Or Pittsburgh the past few years?

Take all those points, and add A LOT more.
Look at James Neal. Having a career year in Pittsburgh playing with better talent then he had in Dallas.

It is not un-reasonable for to think Nash could put up better numbers with the talent level of this team. With that being said, it would be foolish to assume it as a forgone conclusion.

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