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02-13-2012, 09:04 PM
  #401
Bernie Parent 1974
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Originally Posted by f2d View Post
There's so much to judging a goalie it can't be stated in a few lines.

Like one big one is rebound control. If a goalie's giving up juicy rebounds, some people will only look at the shot that goes in and say "he had no chance to save that" when it was the goalie's fault that opportunity existed to begin with.
really ?? gee, now why didn't I think about after playing goal since 1973 ?

no kidding, Mr. Roy

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02-13-2012, 09:58 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by Slap Happy View Post
Nope pretty sure it was ice hockey, but thanks for that. What you wrote is all absolutely true, however, what you first said and what I first quoted has absolutely nothing to do with what you are saying right now. Go back and read what you first wrote, it has nothing to do with what you wrote above, but nice try.
nice try with your nice try. thats seems like a pretty solid go to come back for everything. i'm a loser, so i'll go back and rehash my previous point. the cap hit of 5.6 mil for bryzgalov in my opinon, that is, is a fair not insane amount of money. Nothing on this forum, from what i can tell, is fact. its just a bunch of dicks who think they know everything coming at you with their strong opinions. We finally spent money on a goalie, just in time for us to gut our team of defensive power and lose some guys to injury. When your in a transistion year like we obviously are, you cant expect gold every night. You said you were a goalie. your gonna tell me you watched a guy like bryzgalov play and thought he sucked before? or i guess he was great before but sucks now and its entirely on him? has nothing to do with the team in front? Maybe that's where we disagree. The popular choice is to look at a guy with a big contract and nitpick the hell outta him, but i havent seen enough strong play infront of him to make that decision yet. I still think he's our guy. Your not alone tho. most people hate him and want him gone. that's cool. There is no right and wrong here. We're not working for the flyers. all i know is that if past numbers dont count for contracts, then brodeur, backstrom, crawford, hiller, miller, kipper, etc. their all paid fat and have up and down nights. some of them have their teams way outta the playoff picture which is all that matters and for more money. The flyers arent the only team in the NHL.

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02-14-2012, 12:25 AM
  #403
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Is that some sort of dig at Bryz?
Yeah, sure, whatever.

No. I'm not a Bryz fan, but, really... come on. Bashing him doesn't consume the essence of my posts.

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02-14-2012, 08:07 AM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
that shows how far off the mark you are. nobody is claiming it is some sort of 'stat'
Notice, I called it a "pretend stat." Meaning: It isn't a real stat. Don't strawman me. You're giving it more weight than the actual stat that matters (SV%). You're confusing the means (difficulty of the save) with the ends (making the save.)

Your criterion is hokey.

Quote:
we're giving our opinion on his performance. period. we're discussing it / agreeing & disagreeing ... but NOBODY is even thinking about the idea that it is some measurable stat.
You stated a principle by which you measure the goaltender. I'm staying your principle is bogus. My point is that you should be thinking of it in terms of stats. "Period." lulz.

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02-14-2012, 11:00 AM
  #405
Bernie Parent 1974
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
Notice, I called it a "pretend stat." Meaning: It isn't a real stat.
no kidding, nobody here EVER attempted to call it a real, pretend, solid, imaginary, accurate, misleading or stat of ANY kind ... you are the only one associating 'is the goalie to blame on any particular goal' with the word 'stat' ... just you. nobody else.

you might as well proclaim that 'the goalie being to blame on any particular goal' isn't a flavor of Ice Cream, it's the same as 'stat': nobody is claiming it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
You stated a principle by which you measure the goaltender. I'm staying your principle is bogus. My point is that you should be thinking of it in terms of stats.
and I'm saying I don't give a rat's butt if you think anything is 'bogus' .... but you still can't even get straight what I was saying:

initially I stated my criteria on determining if I think a goalie is to blame on any given goal. it's subjective. it's my opinion. you are welcome to disagree on any given goal. but there is no 'stat' for that. real or 'pretend'. it's ridiculous to even use the word 'stat' when it's all about opinion on determining if one thinks a goalie is to blame on any given goal.

after that, I stated that the way I measure a goalie 'overall' in general is :

most goalies make all the stops they are 'supposed to' ..... the great ones [the one that I consider great] make extra saves on the ones their not supposed to get.

you measure goalies whatever way you want to, i may disagree, but i won't tell you that the way you form your opinion is 'wrong' or that you must some 'written in stone' criteria to come to your opinions ....

so don't tell me what criteria i should use. i'll use what I want, regardless of whether you approve.


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02-14-2012, 12:06 PM
  #406
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SV% is so flawed it's a joke.

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02-14-2012, 12:47 PM
  #407
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Bob had a chance to really step up this week and prove himself.
He failed
Miserably

Sure, he was left to hang out to dry on several goals, but he didn't make momentum saves when we needed them most.


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02-14-2012, 01:45 PM
  #408
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"when we needed them most" means "every three or four minutes" with this team's personnel and system

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02-14-2012, 07:08 PM
  #409
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I called it "pretend" to point out how unreliable it is, as a principle, and then I explained why it doesn't make sense practically either, using both sports psychology and a little Heideggerian phenomenology.

For a guy who claims to be a stat bunny, you're sure into the subjective, which truly is the realm of someone who is not interested in defending a point logically.

My point still remains: Your criterion is awful and the entire point behind it is that you believe it is a better way of evaluating a players by breaking down your subjective evaluation of what is reasonable vs unreasonable so you can give your blessing to goaltenders.

It isn't reasonable and I gave you a lengthy explanation as to why not.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 02-15-2012 at 04:25 PM. Reason: Cleanup
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Old
02-15-2012, 04:13 PM
  #410
Bernie Parent 1974
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post

For a guy who claims to be a stat bunny

My point still remains: Your criterion is awful


you are so far of base, it's not even funny. i've NEVER proclaimed to be wrapped up in stats. EVER. i'll use stats when others do, but stats don't tell a complete story - watching the games do.

again, your opinion on my criteria used to determine if i think any given goal against is a bad one, or how i rate goalies over all, means ZERO to me.


Last edited by Bernie Parent 1974: 02-15-2012 at 09:34 PM.
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Old
02-15-2012, 04:17 PM
  #411
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Bernie is basicly down to argueing with himself in this thread i see huh ??

and still going..

hahah

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02-15-2012, 04:36 PM
  #412
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You can always make a quick guy more technical. But you can't make blocking goalie faster. You either have a good glove or not. Some things you are just born with. Bob is blessed with alot of natural ability, and as far as I know only 2 years of proper instruction, his KHL team had no goalie coach. Goalies are constantly working on their game, and usually it takes until your late 20's to figure out how to play smarter and no so much harder. If your positioning and pad angle are better, you can control rebounds better and not have to be out of position after a save, or be in better position to make a better save. Nitty never did figure that out. If Bob shows consistent improvement in his game, there's no reason he can't be a top tier goalie in a few years. Not many goalies are lights out immediately, and those that do usually get "figured" out by the league in short order. It's kinda like a pitcher in baseball, the opposing players get a "book" on you. Look how bad the flyers are against backup goalies.

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02-15-2012, 05:19 PM
  #413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cmoneyflyguy View Post
Bob had a chance to really step up this week and prove himself.
He failed
Miserably

Sure, he was left to hang out to dry on several goals, but he didn't make momentum saves when we needed them most.

Not sure how you can blame the NYR game on him. Got stuck with all the cross crease passes for slam dunks by the open guy at the far post.

The Det game was obviously a more mediocre game by him. Ugly goals from point shots sneaking through.

Prolly the worst game for him since the last time he faced Winnipeg.

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02-15-2012, 05:59 PM
  #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
Not sure how you can blame the NYR game on him. Got stuck with all the cross crease passes for slam dunks by the open guy at the far post.

The Det game was obviously a more mediocre game by him. Ugly goals from point shots sneaking through.

Prolly the worst game for him since the last time he faced Winnipeg.
The rangers game was not his fault. look what they did to boston last night. same goals on the p.p, same as on us and that was boston. Their rap ing everybody at this point. People say that teams play better when their confident in the play of their goalies (which is why chicago blows right now...their goalies suck) but i really think the team in front created this mess with our goalies this year. There was a couple saves both of them could've made this year by themselves (more Bryz than bob) but im reading more and more people finally coming on board about how our system sucks. its not the goalies. its the defensive play of our team. no goalie in the league could get into a groove on this god dam team. your bum avatar should be a team picture.

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Old
02-15-2012, 09:32 PM
  #415
Bernie Parent 1974
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan4life View Post
Bernie is basicly down to argueing with himself in this thread
that's funny, here i was thinking i was discussing thoughts on Bob & his performances with the others here .... no, in fact i'm certain that's what is going on here

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02-18-2012, 08:40 PM
  #416
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BOB did NOT bail Bryz out. He was in fact very bad. But he did come in cold.

He has come in cold 4 times this season and all but one he has performed very well.

Recently he has cooled off and not performed so well. He has also been the victim of a couple really poor games by the skaters in front of him.

Needless to say, Bryz has had his shot.

BOB needs to be given 8-10 games in a row and Pete needs to just stick with him.

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02-18-2012, 08:49 PM
  #417
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Bob is a backup and in his 2nd year. Bryz is an established goalie who was brought in to calm things down. Them both having bad games is not good and it's way more damning for bryz.

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02-19-2012, 12:41 PM
  #418
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Neither of the two goalies will start a good rush without being confident.

That being said, Bryzgalov has gotten way more chances to get confident than bob. Maybe its the time to give more games to bob. Maybe he returns back to form like last year!!

I have more faith in him than in Bryz!


Last edited by Ironmanrulez: 02-19-2012 at 12:42 PM. Reason: grammar
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02-20-2012, 01:55 PM
  #419
Bernie Parent 1974
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Bob did nothing to instill confidence in him, either, saturday.


fumbled shot at the logo / rebound banged in
poor foot positioning on a shot from below the red line & Pele'd it into the net
poor rebound, beaten high from the goal line

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02-21-2012, 03:15 PM
  #420
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You know what I absolutely hate about Bob? That after being in the US for so long he still isn't speaking to the media directly, but relies on a translator. This, to me, reeks of lack of confidence, and I don't see how he could be the total opposite on the ice. From what I recall, he once said that he's not speaking English, because he doesn't want to make the mistakes Malkin makes/made and make a fool of himself. Well, yeah, but you know what? You have to respect Malkin for it, and having the cojones to not care about stuff like that.

Had to get it out there.

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02-21-2012, 03:28 PM
  #421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryker View Post
You know what I absolutely hate about Bob? That after being in the US for so long he still isn't speaking to the media directly, but relies on a translator. This, to me, reeks of lack of confidence, and I don't see how he could be the total opposite on the ice. From what I recall, he once said that he's not speaking English, because he doesn't want to make the mistakes Malkin makes/made and make a fool of himself. Well, yeah, but you know what? You have to respect Malkin for it, and having the cojones to not care about stuff like that.

Had to get it out there.
I actually wish our other goaltender refused to speak English too.

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02-21-2012, 03:46 PM
  #422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryker View Post
You know what I absolutely hate about Bob? That after being in the US for so long he still isn't speaking to the media directly, but relies on a translator. This, to me, reeks of lack of confidence, and I don't see how he could be the total opposite on the ice. From what I recall, he once said that he's not speaking English, because he doesn't want to make the mistakes Malkin makes/made and make a fool of himself. Well, yeah, but you know what? You have to respect Malkin for it, and having the cojones to not care about stuff like that.

Had to get it out there.
So long as in a year and a half?

You're reaching.

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02-21-2012, 03:56 PM
  #423
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A year and a half in an environment where you're totally immersed in a language is not long enough to learn it enough to speak it well enough?

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02-21-2012, 04:06 PM
  #424
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A year and a half in an environment where you're totally immersed in a language is not long enough to learn it enough to speak it well enough?
There's no guarantee how much immersion he gets...probably watches a lot of Russian tv, has a Russian wife, translator on the team, ect.

Lots of people in America live here and never become English speakers.

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02-21-2012, 04:11 PM
  #425
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He just needs to keep the puck out of the net and work well with his teammates.

I could care less about him speaking to the media.

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