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Nash-ty Rumors Part IV: The Longest Week

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02-21-2012, 04:03 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by NYRangers16 View Post
You can say this but it's a cop out. 32 goals is good but not elite. 65 pts is good but not elite. 7.8m cap hit demands elite production in my opinion. I'd save our assets for the guy who is paid appropriately.
For the record, I'm not advocating a Nash trade. I'm just too scared of the contract and to tinker too much with lightning in the bottle they've captured with the current team chemistry.

Nash as a player isn't getting the respect he deserves in this thread though. He's a goal scorer. He's not looking to set up plays for teammates, especially not when it's Antoine Vermette. (no offense to Vermette) His job is to lead the offense, period.

There's not many players out there who do it all. You're not getting one for the kind of packages that are being discussed in the unlikely event one ever hit the market. If you think this team needs a pure goal scorer, here's one.

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02-21-2012, 04:06 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by nasalpancho View Post
No one is going to correct this guy that Ilya has become an exponentially better hockey player in Jersey?

Are you really arguing that playing with better players will not help his game? Or playing on a team where he is not the lone threat so teams cant solely focus on him? Or the likelihood that playing on a contending team over the worst team in his league may give him some added juice? Your argument is illogical and borderline ridiculous
No because he is not. As some one who has lived in Atlanta for the past 8 years and watched Kovalchuk since he came into the league with Atlanta, I can tell you he is the same player. Just as selfish as he was with the Thrashers, however he is winning now so it has taken his arrogance to the next level.

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02-21-2012, 04:08 PM
  #303
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No because he is not. As some one who has lived in Atlanta for the past 8 years and watched Kovalchuk since he came into the league with Atlanta, I can tell you he is the same player. Just as selfish as he was with the Thrashers, however he is winning now so it has taken his arrogance to the next level.
That's false -- he has become a better all around hockey player -- plays a more responsible and disciplined game.

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02-21-2012, 04:09 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by nasalpancho View Post
No one is going to correct this guy that Ilya has become an exponentially better hockey player in Jersey?

Are you really arguing that playing with better players will not help his game? Or playing on a team where he is not the lone threat so teams cant solely focus on him? Or the likelihood that playing on a contending team over the worst team in his league may give him some added juice? Your argument is illogical and borderline ridiculous
I'm not sure I agree with this... Kovalchuk is on pace for 39 goals and 90 points this year. It's a very similar stat line to some of his seasons in Atlanta.

Additionally, Kovy has yet to break the 40 goal barrier in NJ. In Atlanta, he had five 40+ goal seasons, two of them being 50+ goal seasons. He put up 52 goals in 2007-08 playing on a line with Todd White. Despite being on bad teams in Atlanta., Kovalchuk was always able to excel offensively.

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02-21-2012, 04:13 PM
  #305
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Some people are forgetting this isn't just a straight up trade for Dubi. It isn't that simple.

I don't usually agree with what Brooks says, but I felt this was a good article. At least for arguing against Nash.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...M9bVNg1K529ZNI

With that said, I do feel Nash will do better here, if not the same, but there are no guarantees. He should provide the extra goal scoring that the team is looking for. But, 7.8m/yr + assets is just too much to give to up. Sure Sather always seems to work his magic in trades, but I don't think he can do it with this one. We will have to give to get.

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02-21-2012, 04:23 PM
  #306
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anyone who thinks that kovy hasn't taken his game to a new level this season hasn't seen many devils games.

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02-21-2012, 04:24 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by PMantis24 View Post
Some people are forgetting this isn't just a straight up trade for Dubi. It isn't that simple.

I don't usually agree with what Brooks says, but I felt this was a good article. At least for arguing against Nash.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...M9bVNg1K529ZNI

With that said, I do feel Nash will do better here, if not the same, but there are no guarantees. He should provide the extra goal scoring that the team is looking for. But, 7.8m/yr + assets is just too much to give to up. Sure Sather always seems to work his magic in trades, but I don't think he can do it with this one. We will have to give to get.
Very nice article and I agree, I hope they pass on Nash. I also believe with the team we have we can win the cup, this team can beat anyone at any time and if they have a bad night the defence can win it and if the night is even worse then Hank can win it, just give it a shot and if we get out after round 2 or 3 we have gained a load of experience for the young players, keep this team for the play offs and then in the off season go for Parise. Just my two cents

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02-21-2012, 04:24 PM
  #308
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Some people are forgetting this isn't just a straight up trade for Dubi. It isn't that simple.
this is the first I've heard of this development

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02-21-2012, 04:27 PM
  #309
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Very nice article and I agree, I hope they pass on Nash. I also believe with the team we have we can win the cup, this team can beat anyone at any time and if they have a bad night the defence can win it and if the night is even worse then Hank can win it, just give it a shot and if we get out after round 2 or 3 we have gained a load of experience for the young players, keep this team for the play offs and then in the off season go for Parise. Just my two cents
There is a reason this season is the third best start in 86 years...

In other words, a record/season like this does NOT happen very often.

I want to compete for the cup NOW. Even Henrik realizes it. Time is ticking, there are only so many years left with him at his prime. A run needs to begin now.

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02-21-2012, 04:29 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by nasalpancho View Post
No one is going to correct this guy that Ilya has become an exponentially better hockey player in Jersey?

Are you really arguing that playing with better players will not help his game? Or playing on a team where he is not the lone threat so teams cant solely focus on him? Or the likelihood that playing on a contending team over the worst team in his league may give him some added juice? Your argument is illogical and borderline ridiculous
Kovy's point totals are down as are his goal totals. Go look it up.

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Originally Posted by NvincentYvalentineR View Post
Look at James Neal. Having a career year in Pittsburgh playing with better talent then he had in Dallas.

It is not un-reasonable for to think Nash could put up better numbers with the talent level of this team. With that being said, it would be foolish to assume it as a forgone conclusion.
I mentioned Neal as the only one I could think of. And last year he was a total nonfactor. But I'll stipulate he is one you can count. I still can't think of another. Almost every single star traded to a better team has put up equal or lesser numbers.

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02-21-2012, 04:29 PM
  #311
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That's a really interesting point you suggest GWOW (not sure if you were serious). It's actually a thought that's been lurking in the back of my head all along. I honestly don't know how I'd feel about that.

Pros: Goes a ways towards addressing the future salary cap problem. The team's been doing fine without the "real Marc Staal" (you can see him making incremental progress, but the fact remains that this year McD and MDZ are much better/more important than Staal). Do we need him with our current stable of defensemen and prospects? The concussion will be a concern until it's not. And you might even be able to squeeze out an additional asset from CLB if you were willing to move Staal.

Cons: It's Marc Staal. He, along with Hank, were the first lights at the end of the re-build tunnel. His value is probably diminished right now due to injury. When fully healthy (likely next year), he's an incredibly valuable commodity as a shut down D-man on a favorable contract (heck, folks last year on this board and the Ducks' agreed that Ryan for Staal straight up was probably fair). I feel like Staal as only PART of a package for Nash feels like overpayment.

But if McD and MDZ (and potentially Erixon) are as good as we think they are, do we then absolutely NEED him...? At some point this stable of defensive assets needs to be used to acquire offensive talent. Thing is, none of us ever considered that the first guy to start to build that stable would be the one...

It's really tough.
I wasnt being totally serious, but if I heard that trade was made, I'd be sad from a player-attachment standpoint but ecstatic in terms of money and quality.

But that is predicated on my belief that Erixon will eventually be equal to Staal in terms of production

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
Honestly, GWOW, with that package Columbus would have to add.

Dubi is a lesser Nash, but Staal would be the best defenseman in that franchises history by a ridiculous margin.

Honestly, I don't trade Staal unless it's for another young top end player on a sweetheart contract, or rather not at all.

Dubinsky was a lesser Nash last season. This year he's been lost. When Nash has an off year, he'll produce on par with a career season from Dubinsky.

Trading Staal is a huge gamble. Huge, but the way the team played without him this season makes you think that they could stomach his loss for a decade or so

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02-21-2012, 04:32 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by nevesis View Post
There is a reason this season is the third best start in 86 years...
Yup I agree, so do not touch it

I see where you coming from bro, but I believe we have 4 more seasons like this coming, look at how Detroit, Pitsburgh are competing every year and others too, I think with how young our team is, we can start building something. This year can be an awesome build year, players getting the taste of winning, the believe of being able to compete for the cup, experience, veteranship etc etc So I see where you are coming from and many others, but my opinion would be, believe and take it slow, and who knows how far we can come this year.

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02-21-2012, 04:35 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
For the record, I'm not advocating a Nash trade. I'm just too scared of the contract and to tinker too much with lightning in the bottle they've captured with the current team chemistry.

Nash as a player isn't getting the respect he deserves in this thread though. He's a goal scorer. He's not looking to set up plays for teammates, especially not when it's Antoine Vermette. (no offense to Vermette) His job is to lead the offense, period.

There's not many players out there who do it all. You're not getting one for the kind of packages that are being discussed in the unlikely event one ever hit the market. If you think this team needs a pure goal scorer, here's one.
We agree on point #1 then. I'm absolutely willing to give Nash a break on the assist totals because he's a scorer. But a 32 goal average isn't worth 7.8m in my opinion without more points. He needs to do more to be worth that in my opinion.

And I'm of the opinion we don't have to do anything player-wise. We do need to fix the PP but that's a system issue I think. I'm fine holding onto our assets until someone worth it comes along or until we develop one ourselves. I think we can compete for a cup as is... If some posters don't think this, then I can see why they'd want Nash(the player)...but I think a lot of them are envisioning a 40-40 guy...instead of what he really is.

I'm just trying to inject some realistic expectations here - if people still think he's worth it then that's their opinion, ya know? But I see a lot of unrealistic projections and theories thrown about to justify it.

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02-21-2012, 04:37 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by nasalpancho View Post
That's false -- he has become a better all around hockey player -- plays a more responsible and disciplined game.
Explain to me how its false? What do the statistics say? Thats right, they say that production wise he is the same.

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02-21-2012, 04:41 PM
  #315
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this is the first I've heard of this development
I said that since the last few posts were just making stat comparisons to Dubi without factoring anything else.

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02-21-2012, 04:42 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by NvincentYvalentineR View Post
Look at James Neal. Having a career year in Pittsburgh playing with better talent then he had in Dallas.

It is not un-reasonable for to think Nash could put up better numbers with the talent level of this team. With that being said, it would be foolish to assume it as a forgone conclusion.
James Neal is playing with a generational talent who is having a beast of a season right now and has positioned himself to take the Hart. I just think it's dumb to assume because we have some better players than Columbus that Nash will be elite and worth his salary and our assets.

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02-21-2012, 04:43 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by NvincentYvalentineR View Post
Explain to me how its false? What do the statistics say? Thats right, they say that production wise he is the same.
I said he was down in my first post which is probably selling him short - he's right on pace. But yea that doesn't negate my point. I'd like to see some examples of elite players who improved. I think when you get to that level, you pretty much are what you are. You'd think the production would go up playing with better players but in this case common sense in wrong.

i'm probably beating a dead horse now I'll shut up lol

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02-21-2012, 04:45 PM
  #318
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nash for cheap or no nash at all. simple.

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02-21-2012, 04:46 PM
  #319
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James Neal is playing with a generational talent who is having a beast of a season right now and has positioned himself to take the Hart. I just think it's dumb to assume because we have some better players than Columbus that Nash will be elite and worth his salary and our assets.
I believe that is what I said except I chose to use foolish rather then dumb...

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02-21-2012, 04:46 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by NHRangerfan View Post
Key word in the Brooks article is "believed"...it's also a negotiation so you always ask for more than you're willing to settle for and conversely the GM's on the other side will make an inital offer with less than they are willing to offer.
Obviously, I know how negotiations work, but the point is when it comes down to it, any move for Nash is going to be for more than any of us want.

Otherwise Columbus keeps him or trades him this offseason.

You think they are going to take Dubi, Thomas, MZA, Erixon, and a first?

Hell no they aren't.

Oh, and guys, nobody wants MZA, so stop including him.

Stand pat. This is the first year of the window and we are only going to get better. just say NO to Nash.

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02-21-2012, 04:46 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by PMantis24 View Post
Some people are forgetting this isn't just a straight up trade for Dubi. It isn't that simple.

I don't usually agree with what Brooks says, but I felt this was a good article. At least for arguing against Nash.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...M9bVNg1K529ZNI

With that said, I do feel Nash will do better here, if not the same, but there are no guarantees. He should provide the extra goal scoring that the team is looking for. But, 7.8m/yr + assets is just too much to give to up. Sure Sather always seems to work his magic in trades, but I don't think he can do it with this one. We will have to give to get.
Well, three threads ago I brought up issue of how Nash's contract could complicate the resigning of guys we really care for, and somebody tried to say we're not a dynasty like Chicago so we dont have to think long term like that.

Chicago and Washington are two perfect examples of the good and bad in stockpiling superstars on one team.

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02-21-2012, 04:46 PM
  #322
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IMO, if you are the GM of a team with a reasonable shot at the cup, and have the opportunity to add a player like Rick Nash for a reasonable price, you do it. Yes, hockey is entertainment, but the Stanley Cup is the ultimate goal.

Most seem to agree Dubinsky is bound to go the other way and Girardi, McD and MDZ and Stepan are untouchables. I agree.

However, if Howson would settle for a package with Dubinsky, prospects and picks, ( let's say Erixon, Kreider and a 1st rounder), I'd do it in a heartbeat. I'd even throw in another pick, prospect or marginal player. Rick Nash is an elite player. Kreider, McIlrath, Erixon and the other prospects, well, we just don't know yet. IMO, given the young core on D, I'd say the likes of Erixon and McIlrath are very much expendable.

For those of you being concerned being able to re-sign the young core players: I understand that, but don't really see it as much of a concern. This summer, no problem, NEXT summer it might be a bit tricky, but lot's of time for Sather & Co to come up with a plan. Players will probably be much more willing to take discounts on a team with offensive power like that, and you still have the option to move one of them or one of your big contracts (both scenarios would probably bring a decent return in picks and prospects, refilling the cupboard). The team would still be very, very competitive.
No to Kreider, he's untouchable; I don't want Nash, but if for some reason Sather decides Nash is a must than its Dubi, Erixson/McIlrath, C Thomas, 1st and Wade Redden (thats a must) NYR get Nash + CBJ 2nd; that at least covers the cap hit; I know it doesn't affect our season, but it hamstrings us in the summer.

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02-21-2012, 04:48 PM
  #323
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I believe that is what I said except I chose to use foolish rather then dumb...
Oh okay, sorry then, misread.

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02-21-2012, 04:48 PM
  #324
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No to Kreider, he's untouchable; I don't want Nash, but if for some reason Sather decides Nash is a must than its Dubi, Erixson/McIlrath, C Thomas, 1st and Wade Redden (thats a must) NYR get Nash + CBJ 2nd; that at least covers the cap hit; I know it doesn't affect our season, but it hamstrings us in the summer.
There is NO WAY CBJ takes back Wade Redden. I cannot stress it enough how that will never happen.

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02-21-2012, 04:51 PM
  #325
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There is NO WAY CBJ takes back Wade Redden. I cannot stress it enough how that will never happen.
Lol they wanted him back in 08'. Now they can get him for practically free!
Also he is apparently good at mentoring AHLers.
Columbus has plenty of AHLers.
WIN-WIN?

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