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Would you consider moving Cole if the price is right?

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Old
02-21-2012, 06:49 PM
  #151
icerocket
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Find something the team lacks, find out it works well in your system... and trade it. Pretty sure that's a successful formula right there.
But he has trade value now!

Trade the players that suck because they suck.

Trade the good players because they have trade value.

hf mantra.

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02-21-2012, 08:15 PM
  #152
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I guess it would depend on the deal. If a contender wanted Cole and were willing to deal a really good young prospect, you would have to consider it. It can be a risk either way. Cole's play might drop off by the time we can ice a contender. On the other hand, young really good prospect could be a bust.

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02-21-2012, 08:24 PM
  #153
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This thread is almost as ridiculous as the one about revamping/rebuilding the Forum and moving the Habs back in it...

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02-21-2012, 10:33 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by icerocket View Post
But he has trade value now!

Trade the players that suck because they suck.

Trade the good players because they have trade value.

hf mantra.
What you don't get is that... we're perpetually a bubble team. The mantra would be a whole lot different if we were Vancouver or some other contender. Then it makes sense to add a guy like Cole.

If a good player is 33 years old and you aren't going to win then YES trade him for something that will help you down the road. We NEVER do this. And that's why we're perpetually a bubble club and it's why you're always reading people suggesting that we deal away vets.

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02-21-2012, 11:07 PM
  #155
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I'm all for it. He's exactly the type of player that would put someone over the top in the playoffs. Plus he deserves to be there. If he's on the market, he's the second biggest fish after Nash...

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02-21-2012, 11:14 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Steveshutt View Post
I'm all for it. He's exactly the type of player that would put someone over the top in the playoffs. Plus he deserves to be there. If he's on the market, he's the second biggest fish after Nash...
Did Jeff Carter crawl into a hole and die?

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02-21-2012, 11:18 PM
  #157
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Wrong thread

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02-21-2012, 11:37 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
So you're telling me you'd do it then if Washington said yes? Please don't try to avoid the question here.

I disagree with you on this. And it's a message board so humour me. If we could get a first or a good prospect... would you do it? Stop trying to avoid the question.

Yup, I sure am happy about fighting for last place. Then again, I wanted a rebuild anyway so...
I am not avoiding the question at all. I actually have answered you more than once, albeit indirectly.

I don't think there is anything available right now that'd be right to trade for Cole. No picks, no prospects; Cole has incredible value to this team right now, and he will have just as much next year.

This team needs this type of veterans to go forward, and even moreso if it's going to "rebuild".

You see shiny draft picks and Taylor Halls where I see a terrible failure in understanding how this stuff works on a human and organisationnal level.

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02-21-2012, 11:40 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Macbeth View Post
I am not avoiding the question at all. I actually have answered you more than once, albeit indirectly.

I don't think there is anything available right now that'd be right to trade for Cole. No picks, no prospects; Cole has incredible value to this team right now, and he will have just as much next year.

This team needs this type of veterans to go forward, and even moreso if it's going to "rebuild".

You see shiny draft picks and Taylor Halls where I see a terrible failure in understanding how this stuff works on a human and organisationnal level.
As Pierre McGuire likes to say: This guy gets it!

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02-21-2012, 11:48 PM
  #160
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Macbeth View Post
I am not avoiding the question at all. I actually have answered you more than once, albeit indirectly.

I don't think there is anything available right now that'd be right to trade for Cole. No picks, no prospects; Cole has incredible value to this team right now, and he will have just as much next year.

This team needs this type of veterans to go forward, and even moreso if it's going to "rebuild".

You see shiny draft picks and Taylor Halls where I see a terrible failure in understanding how this stuff works on a human and organisationnal level.
So would you deal him for a top 10 or not? Simple question.

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02-21-2012, 11:53 PM
  #161
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To answer the question of the thread, yes. However that price would be steep. I would want a future stud back, like a Brayden Schenn or a Sean Couturier.

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02-22-2012, 01:19 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
So would you deal him for a top 10 or not? Simple question.
If you can't surmise what my position is from our recent exchange you are one thick-skulled feller.

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02-22-2012, 05:32 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
So would you deal him for a top 10 or not? Simple question.
man, your record is soooooo broken by now i don't even need to read your posts to know what they say.

and to answer the above question: no. besides, i doubt anybody would trade a top 10 pick for cole regardless. you're loading the question to push the answer one way. and he's got an ironclad NTC so it's pointless to argue about it.

as shown by hal gill's mentorship of gorges and subban, you need some veterans on a team. when you don't, you get islander/oilers-type of situations.

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02-22-2012, 06:26 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
To answer the question of the thread, yes. However that price would be steep. I would want a future stud back, like a Brayden Schenn or a Sean Couturier.
Exactly...not for Jurco or Scwartz but for a top 5 overall talent...Huberdeau, Schenn, Ryan, Seguin, Strome etc

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02-22-2012, 07:55 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Macbeth View Post
If you can't surmise what my position is from our recent exchange you are one thick-skulled feller.
I can surmise from your double speak that you don't want to answer the question. Would you deal him for a top ten pick? Yes or no?
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
man, your record is soooooo broken by now i don't even need to read your posts to know what they say.
Yeah, I was way off when I said we should deal away Souray. And that time that I suggested that Koivu should be dealt for Bobby Ryan and everyone disagreed... boy was I ever out to lunch. When I trashed the Gomez and Gionta deals I sure was crazy. And all those years that I've said we'd be a bubble team? What was I thinking?

Man have I ever been wrong on all this stuff. Good thing we're contenders now.
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
and to answer the above question: no. besides, i doubt anybody would trade a top 10 pick for cole regardless. you're loading the question to push the answer one way. and he's got an ironclad NTC so it's pointless to argue about it.
Why the hell not? And please don't hide behind (we can't do it or he has a NTC) this is a message board man. Please explain how in the world it makes sense for a last place team to hold onto a 33 year old player who's having a career year instead of getting a top 10 pick to help us build for down the road?
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
as shown by hal gill's mentorship of gorges and subban, you need some veterans on a team. when you don't, you get islander/oilers-type of situations.
So if we trade away Cole the sky will fall? Dude, mentors are great but they shouldn't come at the expense of great prospects. If you don't have great prospects, then all the mentoring in the world isn't worth squat. You're putting the cart before the horse. There's absolutely no reason not to deal this guy away if we had the opportunity. We're a last place team that isn't close to contending. Giving up a 33 year old makes perfect sense if he brings that kind of return.

And you're kind of proving my point. A few years back I suggested we deal away Markov. Go look at the thread where people laugh about the suggestion of trading him for JVRD or Giroux and a pick. Folks around here talked about how he couldn't go because he had to mentor Subban. Well guess what? The guy missed the last two seasons anyway and Gill was just fine as a mentor. Just because Cole goes away that doesn't mean there aren't others to pick up the slack. Pleks and Gionta can handle that role. The world won't end if we trade away Cole.

We all know he's got a NTC. We also don't know what we could get in return. But that's not the point of this discussion. The question is WOULD you deal him if the opportunity arose. And for you to sit there and tell me that you wouldn't ship off this 33 year old player because he's a mentor... just tells me you don't know what you're talking about.
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Exactly...not for Jurco or Scwartz but for a top 5 overall talent...Huberdeau, Schenn, Ryan, Seguin, Strome etc
This is right up there with your "I wouldn't trade Pleks away unless it included Malkin" type silliness. Cole is nowhere near worth a Seguin. To put the standard up there is ludicrous in the extreme.


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02-22-2012, 08:56 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Why the hell not? And please don't hide behind (we can't do it or he has a NTC) this is a message board man. Please explain how in the world it makes sense for a last place team to hold onto a 33 year old player who's having a career year instead of getting a top 10 pick to help us build for down the road?
i answered that question. moen, gill (god rest his soul), cole. those are the kinds of good productive veterans you need to have on a team. montreal has problems attracting good UFAs to being with (and **** gauthier for treating the rest like cattle) so we can argue the merit of trading somebody you just signed a year earlier and that would be another reason why i wouldn't. but lalala NTC so won't happen regardless.

but in your hypothetical: 2012, Cole for #10 pick. i would think about it long and hard but in the end i wouldn't do it. i regard what cole can teach guys like pacs, eller, desharnais, leblanc - the rookies; i regard that kind of mentorship and work ethics - and goals - more than a pick which by that point (#10) is no sure thing anyways. and by #10, no draftee jumps at me this year anyways (oh look, another defenseman ). and don't deal in hyperbole, you know better; no of course the sky isn't gonna fall. detroit is an example of a team that has institutionalized good work ethics. they are not afraid of taking on suspect cases (bertuzzi, white) and peer-pressuring them into becoming better players. should they trade holmstrom? what about franzen, he won't have more than 2, 3 years left in the tank? value is high...

see what im saying?

this is what irks me about your question and it's also the part you haven't answered yet: it doesn't matter because no team in their right mind would offer that, so you're leading your question toward a "yes".

it's like me saying: would i like pamela anderson to smother me between her sweet round titty balls? oh yes i would. is it gonna happen? no, it's not...

maybe not the best analogy, but a man can dream innit

Quote:
And for you to sit there and tell me that you wouldn't ship off this 33 year old player because he's a mentor... just tells me you don't know what you're talking about.
don't be thick...

edit: no one is untouchable...


Last edited by MasterDecoy: 02-22-2012 at 09:24 AM.
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Old
02-22-2012, 09:16 AM
  #167
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I'd trade Cole before Plekanec but Gionta before Cole to be honest

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02-22-2012, 09:52 AM
  #168
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If the habs were offered a top prospect and a 1st pick for Cole they would be fool not to accept with the direction the team is going cole will be retired when we will have a opportunity to win the cup haha.

Schwartz will be a great player and it may not be long before people put him in the same sentence as the strome huberdeau etc..


Last edited by Dharvey33: 02-22-2012 at 10:19 AM.
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02-22-2012, 09:56 AM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
I'd trade Cole before Plekanec but Gionta before Cole to be honest
Cole has a FULL NTC. He's not going anywhere unless he say so.

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02-22-2012, 09:57 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
This is right up there with your "I wouldn't trade Pleks away unless it included Malkin" type silliness. Cole is nowhere near worth a Seguin. To put the standard up there is ludicrous in the extreme.
What's right up there in ridiculousness is your lack of reading comprehension.

I didn't say they WOULD get that for Cole, I said that's the only situation I would trade him.

If you start trading Cole and Plekanec then you are giving up on guys like Price Subban and Pacioretty as your core.

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02-22-2012, 10:08 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Dharvey33 View Post
If the habs were offered a top prospect and a 1st pick for Cole they would fool not to accept with the direction the team is going cole will be retired when we will have a opportunity to win the cup haha.

Schwartz will be a great player and it may not be long before people put him in the same sentence as the strome huberdeau etc..
that's the kind of return i'd look for and something that'd be more realistic to me in any case. a 20-30 pick plus good/top prospect.

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02-22-2012, 10:36 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
i answered that question. moen, gill (god rest his soul), cole. those are the kinds of good productive veterans you need to have on a team. montreal has problems attracting good UFAs to being with (and **** gauthier for treating the rest like cattle) so we can argue the merit of trading somebody you just signed a year earlier and that would be another reason why i wouldn't. but lalala NTC so won't happen regardless.

but in your hypothetical: 2012, Cole for #10 pick. i would think about it long and hard but in the end i wouldn't do it. i regard what cole can teach guys like pacs, eller, desharnais, leblanc - the rookies; i regard that kind of mentorship and work ethics - and goals - more than a pick which by that point (#10) is no sure thing anyways. and by #10, no draftee jumps at me this year anyways (oh look, another defenseman ). and don't deal in hyperbole, you know better; no of course the sky isn't gonna fall. detroit is an example of a team that has institutionalized good work ethics. they are not afraid of taking on suspect cases (bertuzzi, white) and peer-pressuring them into becoming better players. should they trade holmstrom? what about franzen, he won't have more than 2, 3 years left in the tank? value is high...

see what im saying?
No I don't. Not at all actually.

The Habs and Wings are like apples and oranges. They went through their rebuild long ago and have become a perpetual powerhouse. We are in completely different situations and you can't compare what they'd do to what we should do. They actually have a good shot at a cup this year and we have an excellent chance at 15th in the East.

Again, you are missing the bus here. What good is a mentor if you don't have the talented prospects to mentor in the first place?

As for the top ten pick not being a sure thing... I acknowledge that this is true. But it doesn't matter. Losing Cole doesn't really hurt us that much anyway. As much as it is nice to have him as a mentor, other guys can do this. We're a last place team with Cole in the lineup anyway and 33 years old is getting up there esp for a forward. Injuries are also harder to come back from and this guy's trade value is higher than ever.

Even if that top 10 were to generate a strong 3rd liner it would still be worth it as that player would add depth for the future. On the flipside, that top ten could turn out to be much better. We never make these kinds of moves and that's why we're always creating new threads on why we can't build a winner.
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
this is what irks me about your question and it's also the part you haven't answered yet: it doesn't matter because no team in their right mind would offer that, so you're leading your question toward a "yes".
You can't tell me with a straight face that Washington wouldn't at least consider this. They are sitting there on the edge of the playoffs and need a spark. Cole would be exactly what the doctor ordered over there. It's certainly not beyond reason that we could get Colorado's pick off of them.

Seriously man, that club is desperate to make the playoffs and if they can, Backstrom comes back and it's a whole new ballgame for them. Cole would in all likelyhood be enough for them to get there and it makes sense for them to do it.

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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
it's like me saying: would i like pamela anderson to smother me between her sweet round titty balls? oh yes i would. is it gonna happen? no, it's not...

maybe not the best analogy, but a man can dream innit
Look... I don't know you okay, but Pam Anderson isn't going to want to have anything to do with you. Sorry but that's the way it is. Washington on the other hand might actually consider dealing away their pick for Cole. Maybe they wouldn't but you can't tell me that your chances of touching Anderson's (balls?) are just as likely.
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
What's right up there in ridiculousness is your lack of reading comprehension.

I didn't say they WOULD get that for Cole, I said that's the only situation I would trade him.

If you start trading Cole and Plekanec then you are giving up on guys like Price Subban and Pacioretty as your core.
Oh I understood what you wrote man. And just for emphasis here I'll bold the part I'm responding to. Saying you'd only trade him for a guy like Seguin? That's the part that's absolutely ridiculous and right up there with your previous dumb comment about only being willing to deal away Pleks for Malkin.

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02-22-2012, 11:49 AM
  #173
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No I don't. Not at all actually.

The Habs and Wings are like apples and oranges. They went through their rebuild long ago and have become a perpetual powerhouse. We are in completely different situations and you can't compare what they'd do to what we should do. They actually have a good shot at a cup this year and we have an excellent chance at 15th in the East.
yzerman was a high pick. 4th overall. the rest of the stars, fedorov, lidstrom, konstantinov and so on, 4th round and up (mccarthy and kozloz were second round iirc). that's not rebuilding, that's hoping for the lottery. add plenty of good trades and this is what you get. they didn't "rebuild" in the sense you are talking about: gather tons of top picks edmonton/pittsburgh/washington/islanders-style. they won the jackpot with late picks (and much better scouting in sweden and russia than everybody else) and added some shrewd trades to build their dynasty.

they are the model of professionalism we should strive for. kicking goat's ass to the curb and doing it right with a competent, professional, media-savvy GM would be a step in the right direction.

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Again, you are missing the bus here. What good is a mentor if you don't have the talented prospects to mentor in the first place?
seriously? no talented prospect? really? what you said sounds so dishonest i won't bother going through the trouble of making a list

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Even if that top 10 were to generate a strong 3rd liner it would still be worth it as that player would add depth for the future. On the flipside, that top ten could turn out to be much better. We never make these kinds of moves and that's why we're always creating new threads on why we can't build a winner.
we got third liners coming out of the ears. we need blue chip prospects. it could turn out better, it could turn out worst, im happy with keeping cole and everything he brings

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You can't tell me with a straight face that Washington wouldn't at least consider this. They are sitting there on the edge of the playoffs and need a spark. Cole would be exactly what the doctor ordered over there. It's certainly not beyond reason that we could get Colorado's pick off of them.

Seriously man, that club is desperate to make the playoffs and if they can, Backstrom comes back and it's a whole new ballgame for them. Cole would in all likelyhood be enough for them to get there and it makes sense for them to do it.
from what i understand they are dying for a second line center, not another winger. in that sense plek would be of more value to them than cole. although it's likely they would want to move that first round pick - doesn't matter which one, at this point in time they have #10 and #11, i find it improbable and again, i doubt cole fits in their plans but you never know.

im never against the idea of moving anybody, and i said it: #10 pick plus good prospect is what's it's gonna take to get cole out of here for me. just a #10 pick wouldn't be enough for me to move him - especially not now the way the market is.


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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Look... I don't know you okay, but Pam Anderson isn't going to want to have anything to do with you. Sorry but that's the way it is. Washington on the other hand might actually consider dealing away their pick for Cole. Maybe they wouldn't but you can't tell me that your chances of touching Anderson's (titty balls?) are just as likely.
y u take everything so seriously huh? fixed my original quote, not sure why you truncated my quote to add some gayness in my post but here a little thing for ya



@ 05:17

finally, because im done arguing with you, i prefer building a cup-winning team the steady way, not the fail for year(s) way. there are good example of both models working, and of both models failing. claiming to have monopoly on what works is extremely dishonest.

cheers

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02-22-2012, 12:24 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I can surmise from your double speak that you don't want to answer the question. Would you deal him for a top ten pick? Yes or no?
There is absolutely no double speak whatsoever in any of my replies. It's there and obvious what I think of such a proposition.

You'd rather wax poetic about hypotheticals and straw men, and that's fine in and of itself. Lots of costumers for that type of exchange on here.

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02-22-2012, 12:34 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
yzerman was a high pick. 4th overall. the rest of the stars, fedorov, lidstrom, konstantinov and so on, 4th round and up (mccarthy and kozloz were second round iirc). that's not rebuilding, that's hoping for the lottery. add plenty of good trades and this is what you get. they didn't "rebuild" in the sense you are talking about: gather tons of top picks edmonton/pittsburgh/washington/islanders-style. they won the jackpot with late picks (and much better scouting in sweden and russia than everybody else) and added some shrewd trades to build their dynasty.
Nobody had more top five picks in the 80s than Detroit. You want to say it only yielded them Yzerman? That's fine. But when you land one of the greatest players of all-time and change your culture doing so, it was obviously worth it. And they still used some of those top picks a currency later on to land established stars when they were contenders.

And trading Cole doesn't mean we're going to finish last for a decade the way Detroit did.
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they are the model of professionalism we should strive for. kicking goat's ass to the curb and doing it right with a competent, professional, media-savvy GM would be a step in the right direction.
Sure. Nobody disagrees with that. But they DRAFTED their team and supplemented with FAs when they became contenders. Sure, many (most) were drafted late, but they still had that core before going after a bunch of FAs. They built internally and then supplemented with outsiders. We've done the opposite and it hasn't worked. Moreover, unlike them we aren't able to get the best FAs possible or trade for superstars because they don't want to come here. We get the leftovers. Detroit gets HOFers like Robitaille, Chelios, Hasek, Hull and Shanahan because those guys want to win cups. We get Gomez, Samsonov, Cammy, Gionta, Cole, Hamrylk... because they want the money and long term contracts. Do you see the difference here?

And again... they are contenders now. We aren't. That's why it makes sense to deal away an older player when we're not going to win anything. If you're a contender then it's fine to deal away a pick or Rod Brind'amour if you get Shanahan in return. Just like trading away a young Brett Hull makes sense if you get the final piece to a championship. That's what you're supposed to do when you're close to a cup. We arent' there right now though, so bringing up Detroit as it's constructed today is a silly comparison to us who are fighting for last place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post

seriously? no talented prospect? really? what you said sounds so dishonest i won't bother going through the trouble of making a list
That list of our prospects with star talent is going to be very short. Max, PK. That's it. We've got some decent prospects but nothing that indicates superstar. We need to be trying to get more of picks and prospects to build with man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
we got third liners coming out of the ears. we need blue chip prospects. it could turn out better, it could turn out worst, im happy with keeping cole and everything he brings
Dude, I'm all for trading for blue chip prospects too. Bring it on. But be ready to give up guys like Cole and Pleks for it. If you want talent then you need to PAY for it. But we don't do this.

As for Cole, sure he's good and he's been great for us. But he's not going to get us to a cup and that's all that matters. We've got to start thinking in terms of building towards a cup if we ever want to see one again. So, as much as I really like Cole, it makes sense to trade him. We need to be giving more to Timmins to work with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
from what i understand they are dying for a second line center, not another winger. in that sense plek would be of more value to them than cole. although it's likely they would want to move that first round pick - doesn't matter which one, at this point in time they have #10 and #11, i find it improbable and again, i doubt cole fits in their plans but you never know.
Fine. So trade Pleks. Either one is fine by me.

Bottom line is though that we should be shopping these guys around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
im never against the idea of moving anybody, and i said it: #10 pick plus good prospect is what's it's gonna take to get cole out of here for me. just a #10 pick wouldn't be enough for me to move him - especially not now the way the market is.
I don't see how Cole warrants this. And I don't see how you could be unhappy with a top ten pick either.

Go look at this list: http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=77526 Now imagine Timmins having our own top five and another top 10 to work with. You want a "retool" instead of a rebuild, there you go. You're accelerating the rebuild tremendously in one year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
y u take everything so seriously huh? fixed my original quote, not sure why you truncated my quote to add some gayness in my post but here a little thing for ya


@ 05:17
Anyways...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
finally, because im done arguing with you, i prefer building a cup-winning team the steady way, not the fail for year(s) way. there are good example of both models working, and of both models failing. claiming to have monopoly on what works is extremely dishonest.

cheers
How is going out and signing a 32 year old the 'steady' way to begin with? I mean seriously man, we've tried this for years and it's led us nowhere. Most of the time the player doesn't even work out. Cole, to his credit has been worth every dollar but we're STILL in last place so what's he doing for us really?

I don't claim to have a monopoly on what works but you have to admit, I've been mostly right on things. Our only rebuilding move yielded us MaxPac and Gorges and our best player is a top 5 pick. Why are you so afraid to make more of these kinds of moves instead of doing things as we've always done and hasn't shown any success?

I think that's a fair question dude. We've gotten terrible results doing things the way we have. Why do you want to continue down this path?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macbeth View Post
There is absolutely no double speak whatsoever in any of my replies. It's there and obvious what I think of such a proposition.

You'd rather wax poetic about hypotheticals and straw men, and that's fine in and of itself. Lots of costumers for that type of exchange on here.
So... was that a 'Yes' or a 'No'. Not sure why you're so afraid to answer this simple question.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 02-22-2012 at 12:41 PM.
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