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02-22-2012, 01:16 PM
  #126
elnewby
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What has Koivu done to deserve having the "C" anyway? Sure, he has stretches where he just dominates. But a lot of the time he is hurt and or disappearing from games. It's hard to be a Captain when you spend a portion of every season in the press box..just sayin'. I like the guy, but to me he doesn't fit the leader role very well at all.

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02-22-2012, 01:17 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Minnesota View Post
That's just how squidz rolls. Don't take it personal.
Just seems like everyone thinks I'm off the deep end here and its a little bit frustrating.

Do I think Koivu is one of our best players? Yes. Do I think he is currently the best qualified player to have playing #1 center? Yes.

But I also think the organization is handling him with kid gloves for some reason.

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02-22-2012, 01:48 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by elnewby View Post
What has Koivu done to deserve having the "C" anyway? Sure, he has stretches where he just dominates. But a lot of the time he is hurt and or disappearing from games. It's hard to be a Captain when you spend a portion of every season in the press box..just sayin'. I like the guy, but to me he doesn't fit the leader role very well at all.
I'm going to ask you back, what has anyone else done to deserve the ''C''? He got the 'C' because it was believed that he is the face of the franchise and by all I have heard, he is a great leader. I think one thing what North Americans usually want from their captains is being a vocal leader. Most of the leaders in Finland are leaders by example. Saku Koivu is considered a great leader, but he doesn't talk much. Timonen is a good leader - doesn't talk much. Numminen, again a good leader, but doesn't talk much. Teemu Selanne is one guy who is somewhat a vocal leader, at least he is more vocal than most of the Finns. It's just how it is in Finland; the coaches do the talking, Captains lead by example they set one the ice; not by talking.

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02-22-2012, 01:53 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Avder View Post
Just seems like everyone thinks I'm off the deep end here and its a little bit frustrating.

Do I think Koivu is one of our best players? Yes. Do I think he is currently the best qualified player to have playing #1 center? Yes.

But I also think the organization is handling him with kid gloves for some reason.
I'm sure most of us aren't against you. Your theory is definitely a possibility.

However, there are more likely scenarios for what's happening.

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02-22-2012, 02:05 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by mikko1995 View Post
I'm going to ask you back, what has anyone else done to deserve the ''C''? He got the 'C' because it was believed that he is the face of the franchise and by all I have heard, he is a great leader. I think one thing what North Americans usually want from their captains is being a vocal leader. Most of the leaders in Finland are leaders by example. Saku Koivu is considered a great leader, but he doesn't talk much. Timonen is a good leader - doesn't talk much. Numminen, again a good leader, but doesn't talk much. Teemu Selanne is one guy who is somewhat a vocal leader, at least he is more vocal than most of the Finns. It's just how it is in Finland; the coaches do the talking, Captains lead by example they set one the ice; not by talking.
I understand your argument that what has anyone done to deserve the "C" IMHO, no one has really deserved it as of late. Powe and Brodz seem to be the only ones that show up to play on a regular basis. I agree with your statement, that NA's want a vocal leader, a guy who will stick up for his team, and rip them a part when we suck. Koivu is not that kind of a guy. He is a leader by example, but if you lead by example, you best come to play every single game. Anyways...back to the injury.

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02-22-2012, 02:26 PM
  #131
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Personally I would probably give A's to Koivu, Brodziak, and Heatley next year. Maybe being the captain is too distracting for Mikko. He doesn't seem to want to speak with the media all that much and doesn't act like the face of the franchise. I also feel like Brodziak has been stepping up and above his role while Mikko's been struggling.

It wouldn't be the only team where the "best player" isn't the captain. Ryan Callahan wears the C for the Rags while Gaborik and Richards are the better star players.

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02-22-2012, 02:31 PM
  #132
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And we're back to discussing whether or not he should have the C?

As for him not being a vocal guy in the locker room, that couldn't be any further from the truth.

Much like every other time this "discussion" has come up, it still continues to be absurd.

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02-22-2012, 02:35 PM
  #133
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What I'm hearing is... Spurgeon for captain?

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02-22-2012, 02:35 PM
  #134
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Clutter for captain and everyone has to style their hair like his. Salons everywhere will wonder where all their oil went.

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02-22-2012, 02:40 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by this providence View Post
And we're back to discussing whether or not he should have the C?

As for him not being a vocal guy in the locker room, that couldn't be any further from the truth.

Much like every other time this "discussion" has come up, it still continues to be absurd.
Correct. Koivu is our guy. Whether some fans like or not he will wear the C unless he gets traded. I really don't for see a Patrick Marleau situation happening. Koivu is a leader on the ice and is a player that does everything a captain should do. He plays in all 3 zones, is our #1 in every situation, and just flat out leads by example. I understand the frustration that Koivu is hurt, but you can't put that on him. Similar to Latendress. You can't blame him for a concussion. There is nothing that he can do short of faking a doctors clear to play and hurting himself even worse.

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02-22-2012, 03:07 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by this providence View Post
And we're back to discussing whether or not he should have the C?

As for him not being a vocal guy in the locker room, that couldn't be any further from the truth.

Much like every other time this "discussion" has come up, it still continues to be absurd.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. How many seasons does the team need to have an utter collapse before, in your opinion, as fans we should be concerned about his leadership?

And as I said, Wes Walz himself spoke about the lack of leadership in the room. That guy knows Koivu, is around the team, and knows a thing or two about leadership.

Beyond that, a captain has a certain role to fill in terms of being the face of the franchise. Koivu blowing off Russo, arguably the only real media outlet the team has, doesn't speak much to being the point man between the team and the fans.

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02-22-2012, 03:20 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Avder View Post
Man I'm just speculating here. Something about how the organization handles Koivu seems off to me. No need for these kinds of posts directed at me.
The way you (originally) phrased it was essentially "I have cold hard facts that prove that Koivu is this way." That's why you were so roughly challenged on it. Feel free to speculate, just don't say "I have strong evidence that pretty much proves this is true" when you're just trying to guess at what's happening.

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02-22-2012, 03:23 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squidz View Post
The way you (originally) phrased it was essentially "I have cold hard facts that prove that Koivu is this way." That's why you were so roughly challenged on it. Feel free to speculate, just don't say "I have strong evidence that pretty much proves this is true" when you're just trying to guess at what's happening.
sigh

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02-22-2012, 03:24 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. How many seasons does the team need to have an utter collapse before, in your opinion, as fans we should be concerned about his leadership?

And as I said, Wes Walz himself spoke about the lack of leadership in the room. That guy knows Koivu, is around the team, and knows a thing or two about leadership.

Beyond that, a captain has a certain role to fill in terms of being the face of the franchise. Koivu blowing off Russo, arguably the only real media outlet the team has, doesn't speak much to being the point man between the team and the fans.
That's a definition of insanity. Another definition is speaking of, acting upon, and genuinely believing things exist in a certain way when all evidence points to the contrary.

To act like every single season in the history of the franchise has had a complete and utter collapse and that it's solely the result of which jersey has a letter sewn onto it (not to mention the fact that the players with the A on their jerseys completely escape blame for some inexplicable reason in all of this) is taking things far beyond the absurd.

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02-22-2012, 03:28 PM
  #140
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That's pure hyperbole and you know it.

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02-22-2012, 03:35 PM
  #141
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We have no Captains on the team. Period. And that includes Brodz and Cullen. Both have disappeared at times this year. Cullen still remains to be found. Neither of those two guys (or anyone else) has stepped up trying to lead when Koivu's been out the last two years. And if they tried, they didn't make a damn difference.

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02-22-2012, 03:37 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
How many seasons does the team need to have an utter collapse before, in your opinion, as fans we should be concerned about his leadership?
Haven't our collapses this year and last coincided directly with Koivu's injuries? There is only so much you can do from a leadership standpoint when you aren't in the lineup.

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02-22-2012, 03:43 PM
  #143
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These captains debates remind me of the classic Manny vs. Roli goalie threads from back in the day.

This is the song that never ends........

Who's captain is the LEAST of our problems with this team. We have players who won't even listen to their coach anymore. Injuries. An offense that's too scared to put the puck on net. A defense that's softer than butter. A defenseman who wants out. And the list goes on...

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02-22-2012, 03:50 PM
  #144
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He's not the biggest problem, which is lack of talent in the top six and in Houston along with talented and/or experienced blueliners. But lack of leadership is an issue.

The just brought in Spisso, yet again, for an emergency leadership rah rah. Do you do that if you've got strong leadership?

It's also disappointing that Koivu's not going on these trips, however long or short. It doesn't sound like concussion, otherwise he wouldn't be skating or coming back soon or trying to play through it. That's not strong leadership.


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Haven't our collapses this year and last coincided directly with Koivu's injuries? There is only so much you can do from a leadership standpoint when you aren't in the lineup.
Last year's collapse, yes. This year's collapse, no. That coincided with Bouchard's injury. Koivu came back and things were still a mess.


Last edited by Jarick: 02-22-2012 at 03:56 PM.
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02-22-2012, 03:58 PM
  #145
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I've never heard anything from a Wild player that would suggest Koivu is an inadequate captain: nor from a Team Finland player, where he is also captain.

What I have heard are fan "impressions," based on an interpretation of something the media said, or some other disgruntlement other because he doesn't score as much as Toews and Crosby.

Until I hear the former, I'll disregard the latter.

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02-22-2012, 04:01 PM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
He's not the biggest problem, which is lack of talent in the top six and in Houston along with talented and/or experienced blueliners. But lack of leadership is an issue.

The just brought in Spisso, yet again, for an emergency leadership rah rah. Do you do that if you've got strong leadership?

It's also disappointing that Koivu's not going on these trips, however long or short. It doesn't sound like concussion, otherwise he wouldn't be skating or coming back soon or trying to play through it. That's not strong leadership.
I legitimately can't see how you connected those dots.


Quote:
Last year's collapse, yes. This year's collapse, no. That coincided with Bouchard's injury. Koivu came back and things were still a mess.
Bouchard was injured in Winnipeg, one game later, Koivu injured against Chicago, and that started our slide. His coming back hasn't stopped it, but I think that's due other things as well.

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02-22-2012, 04:09 PM
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
He's not the biggest problem, which is lack of talent in the top six and in Houston along with talented and/or experienced blueliners. But lack of leadership is an issue.

The just brought in Spisso, yet again, for an emergency leadership rah rah. Do you do that if you've got strong leadership?

It's also disappointing that Koivu's not going on these trips, however long or short. It doesn't sound like concussion, otherwise he wouldn't be skating or coming back soon or trying to play through it. That's not strong leadership.




Last year's collapse, yes. This year's collapse, no. That coincided with Bouchard's injury. Koivu came back and things were still a mess.
It'd be different if he didn't go on any of the trips. Heck, he had the headset on helping out the coaches during past road games. Maybe they're upping rehab. Who knows.


Last edited by NHL1674: 02-22-2012 at 04:23 PM.
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02-22-2012, 04:29 PM
  #148
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That's pure hyperbole and you know it.
There's a word of your post that was serious? That's pretty sad.

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02-22-2012, 05:51 PM
  #149
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Totally agree.

IMHO, our beloved Kaptain K won't talk to Russo because Russo says it like he sees it, especially when the team sucks as much as they do.

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02-22-2012, 06:00 PM
  #150
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Pretty crazy how much weight people put into Russo's writing, eh?

This market desperately needs more legitimate writers covering this squad. Russo is getting to the point where he can no longer be objective about these players given the relationships he built with some. It's becoming very clear in how he handles certain players in his writing. The sad part is, they won't get that sort of attention until they start winning consistently. And even then, we'll be subject to the already gawd awful media personalities already in town, first...

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