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Why LA Should Get Carter, Not Nash

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Old
02-22-2012, 02:46 PM
  #51
Kingurentai
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Giving up on Kopi now doesn't make sense from any standpoint. We're looking for guys that can help him shine and finish off his plays. Yes, Kopi has been disappointing lately; but we cannot let ourselves forget how dominant he is when he's on fire.

Remember that stretch last year?

Let's put all trade Kopi talk out of discussion because it's not gonna happen.

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02-22-2012, 03:45 PM
  #52
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I'm all for Richards and what he brings to the ice and, historically, to teams he's played for. Not sure that the Kings would be wise to re-unite the former "face(s)" of the Flyers in Richards and Carter and certainly not in any trade involving Kopitar. Carter's not a great fit for the Kings and my bet would be that he'll go to Toronto as their number 1 center (he's from London)- HNIC radio was just discussing that- they don't feel the Leafs could (would) offer anything that Columbus would want for Nash but that a Carter deal could be had for the assets the Leafs could trade away. If the Kings get anybody that would improve their lack of scoring, it needs to be a winger and Nash fits that bill.

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02-22-2012, 03:46 PM
  #53
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Two separate deals.

Bernier + for Carter

Kopitar for Vanek

Not saying I advocate doing exactly that, but proves it can be done.

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02-22-2012, 04:21 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Tebow View Post

Check Carter's ice time in 2010-2011. His season ATOI was 18:15 (the 2nd lowest total in his entire career only to his rookie season). His playoff ATOI was 15:15 also very low. If you look at his actual game logs you will see his ice time basically starts off very high but tails off lower and lower as the season goes.

If Carter was such a great winger why would the Flyers put him on line 3 and cut his ice time when they could easily put him on the Briere/Giroux line or the Richards/Versteeg line?
I did, and it has been checked before on these boards.

Carter played just six minutes in the game he was hurt in during the 2010-2011 playoffs. If you remove that game, his ice time is on average 17:06 for the other five games he played. If you look just at the three games before he was injured, when he'd have been presumably at full health, Carter played an average of 17:28 a game, or about one shift less than he did in the regular season. He also played 26, 25, and 25 shifts in Games one, two and three of the playoffs respectively. He played 23 and 24 shifts in the two games back after injury, and it's likely he wasn't at 100% when he returned.

Given the fact his true ice time is 17+ minutes a game, I strongly doubt he was on the third line, as you claim.

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Old
02-22-2012, 04:29 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
I did, and it has been checked before on these boards.

Carter played just six minutes in the game he was hurt in during the 2010-2011 playoffs. If you remove that game, his ice time is on average 17:06 for the other five games he played. If you look just at the three games before he was injured, when he'd have been presumably at full health, Carter played an average of 17:28 a game, or about one shift less than he did in the regular season. He also played 26, 25, and 25 shifts in Games one, two and three of the playoffs respectively. He played 23 and 24 shifts in the two games back after injury, and it's likely he wasn't at 100% when he returned.

Given the fact his true ice time is 17+ minutes a game, I strongly doubt he was on the third line, as you claim.
This guy has spent most of the time on HF going from the Flyers board to the Columbus board and to this board to bash Carter. Anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt.

Philly never had a 3rd line like most teams, they had Briere with Leino and Hartnell as one line (they stayed intact), Giroux was moved to centre at the beginning of last season with Carter as his RW and Zherdev or JvR on the left side. Richard was the 3rd line centre with the likes of Nodl, Carcillo, JvR and Zherdev as his wingers. That's what happens when you have a really deep team.

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02-22-2012, 04:32 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Two separate deals.

Bernier + for Carter
They say no.

Quote:
Kopitar for Vanek
Kings say no, Sabres ask for a pen before you change your mind.

I think it's really best if fans stay fans and we leave trading to people who know what they are doing.

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02-22-2012, 05:11 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Two separate deals.

Bernier + for Carter

Kopitar for Vanek

Not saying I advocate doing exactly that, but proves it can be done.
Two years ago Vanek was being given up on for basically nothing due to his contract. I understand people are a little sour on the Kings situation but Kopitar is not the guy to trade. especially for a one dimentional player ith a huge cap hit.

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02-22-2012, 05:14 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
This guy has spent most of the time on HF going from the Flyers board to the Columbus board and to this board to bash Carter. Anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt.

Philly never had a 3rd line like most teams, they had Briere with Leino and Hartnell as one line (they stayed intact), Giroux was moved to centre at the beginning of last season with Carter as his RW and Zherdev or JvR on the left side. Richard was the 3rd line centre with the likes of Nodl, Carcillo, JvR and Zherdev as his wingers. That's what happens when you have a really deep team.
Not to be too critical but my sense is he likes to bash Richards too. And you're pretty accurate with last year's Flyers' line-up as I remember it.

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02-22-2012, 05:34 PM
  #59
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Two years ago Vanek was being given up on for basically nothing due to his contract. I understand people are a little sour on the Kings situation but Kopitar is not the guy to trade. especially for a one dimentional player ith a huge cap hit.
I don't think there are any untouchable players in the league, but as you say, trading Kopitar for VANEK... that is simply

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02-22-2012, 05:51 PM
  #60
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OK, Here's my crazy idea for Jeff Carter -

Trade Penner AND Stoll to someone for a 1st round pick. Then send Bernier, Martinez/Drewiskie and a 1st to Columbus for Carter.

Columbus should be more than happy to get that return for a Jeff Carter that doesn't want to be there.

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02-22-2012, 05:54 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Nex06 View Post
They say no.


Kings say no, Sabres ask for a pen before you change your mind.

I think it's really best if fans stay fans and we leave trading to people who know what they are doing.
Yeah ok, as I said it wasn't intended as a sincere proposal. Lombardi shouldn't give up more than Bernier, Penner, Martinez/Voynov and a pick for Carter, considering Columbus' desire to move him.

Thanks for the evaluation.

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02-22-2012, 06:07 PM
  #62
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Not that I believe much of what they say, but TSN indicated tonight that the NY Rangers or SJ Sharks is the likely destination for Rick Nash.

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02-22-2012, 06:11 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosehead81 View Post
Not that I believe much of what they say, but TSN indicated tonight that the NY Rangers or SJ Sharks is the likely destination for Rick Nash.
Sounds like we are willing to pay whatever it takes, but Nash isn't willing to consider LA an option. Obviously a different reaction is expected with Carter

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Old
02-22-2012, 06:14 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by moosehead81 View Post
Not that I believe much of what they say, but TSN indicated tonight that the NY Rangers or SJ Sharks is the likely destination for Rick Nash.
That's fine by me. I hope Columbus can get them to give up Couture, and if not him Pavelski in the package.

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02-22-2012, 06:56 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
I did, and it has been checked before on these boards.

Carter played just six minutes in the game he was hurt in during the 2010-2011 playoffs. If you remove that game, his ice time is on average 17:06 for the other five games he played. If you look just at the three games before he was injured, when he'd have been presumably at full health, Carter played an average of 17:28 a game, or about one shift less than he did in the regular season. He also played 26, 25, and 25 shifts in Games one, two and three of the playoffs respectively. He played 23 and 24 shifts in the two games back after injury, and it's likely he wasn't at 100% when he returned.

Given the fact his true ice time is 17+ minutes a game, I strongly doubt he was on the third line, as you claim.
That is a fair point.

However you are overlooking 1 variable, special teams. Philadelphia's power play unit usually featured 4 forwards and 1 defenseman especially with Pronger only playing 3 games the only defensemen who averaged more PP time then Carter was Meszaros and Timonen.. Carter would eat a defenders power play minutes. As far as even strength hockey goes Carter was #8 forward in ice time. If you want you could use null the injury game but that only moves Carter up to #7 behind Giroux, Briere, JVR, Richards, Leino, and Hartnell (Versteeg was the guy I moved Carter above).

Carter and Richards have not played by design on the same line since the CCR experiment failed. Briere and Giroux were together most of the season and JVR joined them late in the season when he started to look promising. You see it in game 2 before Carter was hurt, JVR goal assisted by Giroux. It was also a point of discussion early this season when JVR was struggling and Giroux was on fire, was JVR's hot stretch a fluke because he was playing with Giroux?

Carter was line 3. I am 100% sure of it. I watched all of these games. Jordan Staal is the #3 center when Crosby and Malkin are healthy but he still gets decent ice time. In 2008-2009 Malkin played 82 games, Staal played 82 games, and Crosby played 77 games. Staal averaged 19:51 as the #3 center. Malkin averaged 22:31 and Crosby averaged 21:56.




As far as the others go, hear what you want to hear. I don't Richards bash. I have repeatedly said he is a very talented player but he is not a super star. Just because I don't praise every thing he does his groupies seem to get extremely offended.

Same deal with Carter. I say he doesn't play winger well and he sucks in the playoffs and people act like I trampled all over their religion. I am entitled to my own view of him if it offends you that much don't read it.

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02-22-2012, 07:32 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Tebow View Post
That is a fair point.

However you are overlooking 1 variable, special teams. Philadelphia's power play unit usually featured 4 forwards and 1 defenseman especially with Pronger only playing 3 games the only defensemen who averaged more PP time then Carter was Meszaros and Timonen.. Carter would eat a defenders power play minutes. As far as even strength hockey goes Carter was #8 forward in ice time. If you want you could use null the injury game but that only moves Carter up to #7 behind Giroux, Briere, JVR, Richards, Leino, and Hartnell (Versteeg was the guy I moved Carter above).

Carter and Richards have not played by design on the same line since the CCR experiment failed. Briere and Giroux were together most of the season and JVR joined them late in the season when he started to look promising. You see it in game 2 before Carter was hurt, JVR goal assisted by Giroux. It was also a point of discussion early this season when JVR was struggling and Giroux was on fire, was JVR's hot stretch a fluke because he was playing with Giroux?

Carter was line 3. I am 100% sure of it. I watched all of these games. Jordan Staal is the #3 center when Crosby and Malkin are healthy but he still gets decent ice time. In 2008-2009 Malkin played 82 games, Staal played 82 games, and Crosby played 77 games. Staal averaged 19:51 as the #3 center. Malkin averaged 22:31 and Crosby averaged 21:56.




As far as the others go, hear what you want to hear. I don't Richards bash. I have repeatedly said he is a very talented player but he is not a super star. Just because I don't praise every thing he does his groupies seem to get extremely offended.

Same deal with Carter. I say he doesn't play winger well and he sucks in the playoffs and people act like I trampled all over their religion. I am entitled to my own view of him if it offends you that much don't read it.
You're wrong in your facts. Opinions are one thing but Carter played with Giroux last season. Briere/Leino/Hartnell stayed together all season.

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02-22-2012, 07:36 PM
  #67
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You're wrong in your facts. Opinions are one thing but Carter played with Giroux last season. Briere/Leino/Hartnell stayed together all season.
I am a MsWoof fan. Modsh is there a way we can trade Herby to the Flyers board and keep her?

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02-22-2012, 08:19 PM
  #68
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Seems like the Kings are trying Kopitar at wing. Think maybe they want to see how he works there as a precursor for the Carter trade?

So maybe the Kings are aiming for Carter, with this line-up in mind:

Nolan - Carter - Brown
Kopitar - Richards - Williams
Clifford - Loktionov - Lewis
Richardson - Stoll - Fraser

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02-22-2012, 08:45 PM
  #69
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Given the score in the Colorado game after the first period, I wouldn't worry about getting Nash or Carter.

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02-23-2012, 07:04 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by jimmy1100 View Post
OK, Here's my crazy idea for Jeff Carter -

Trade Penner AND Stoll to someone for a 1st round pick. Then send Bernier, Martinez/Drewiskie and a 1st to Columbus for Carter.

Columbus should be more than happy to get that return for a Jeff Carter that doesn't want to be there.
Penner and Stoll for a first!!!! Now that's funny stuff. I doubt anybody would claim Penner off waivers right now let alone give up a first for him. Do you really think anybody will make the same mistake LA did on Penner last year? Your trade to Columbus does make sense tho. But only if Carter is really what the fans and team want.


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02-23-2012, 08:36 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Two separate deals.

Bernier + for Carter

Kopitar for Vanek

Not saying I advocate doing exactly that, but proves it can be done.
If and only if the plus is Voynov will the Jackets accept Bernier +.

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02-23-2012, 08:49 AM
  #72
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If and only if the plus is Voynov will the Jackets accept Bernier +.
He was referring to a plus size model.

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02-23-2012, 09:49 AM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy1100 View Post
OK, Here's my crazy idea for Jeff Carter -

Trade Penner AND Stoll to someone for a 1st round pick. Then send Bernier, Martinez/Drewiskie and a 1st to Columbus for Carter.

Columbus should be more than happy to get that return for a Jeff Carter that doesn't want to be there.
See, there's your problem...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Tebow View Post
That is a fair point.

However you are overlooking 1 variable, special teams. Philadelphia's power play unit usually featured 4 forwards and 1 defenseman especially with Pronger only playing 3 games the only defensemen who averaged more PP time then Carter was Meszaros and Timonen.. Carter would eat a defenders power play minutes. As far as even strength hockey goes Carter was #8 forward in ice time. If you want you could use null the injury game but that only moves Carter up to #7 behind Giroux, Briere, JVR, Richards, Leino, and Hartnell (Versteeg was the guy I moved Carter above).

Carter and Richards have not played by design on the same line since the CCR experiment failed. Briere and Giroux were together most of the season and JVR joined them late in the season when he started to look promising. You see it in game 2 before Carter was hurt, JVR goal assisted by Giroux. It was also a point of discussion early this season when JVR was struggling and Giroux was on fire, was JVR's hot stretch a fluke because he was playing with Giroux?

Carter was line 3. I am 100% sure of it. I watched all of these games. Jordan Staal is the #3 center when Crosby and Malkin are healthy but he still gets decent ice time. In 2008-2009 Malkin played 82 games, Staal played 82 games, and Crosby played 77 games. Staal averaged 19:51 as the #3 center. Malkin averaged 22:31 and Crosby averaged 21:56.
Ok, here's special teams stats for you then too:

In those playoffs, Carter averaged 2:57 in PP time per game. Now that would have likely increased if you removed the game he was hurt in, but I can't find a breakdown on PP ice time per game for Carter, just the total average for the playoffs.

That 2:57, even if it recived a slight bump if you removed the game he was hurt from the average, would still fall well behind the PP ice time of Claude Giroux (4:05 per game), Briere (4:04), Van Reimsdyk (3:41) and Richards (3:51). Hartnell averaged 2:44. Even if you give Carter a boost by removing the game he was hurt, Hartnell only played about one less shift per game on the powerplay than Carter.

Carter ranked eighth in PP time during the playoffs last year. Kimmo Timonen, Chris Pronger and Andrei Meszaros were all ahead of him in PP time for D-men, each well above three minutes per game. Timonen was at almost four minutes per game.

If Carter was eating D-man minutes, when was he eating them? Carter would have been on the second powerplay unit based on ice time. The majority of his ice time came at even strength. Considering he averaged around 14:30 per game at even strength during his healthy games, he'd have sat just above or below Ville Leino for fourth in ES time amoung forwards. Sounds like 2nd line ice time to me.

Also, I don't care about Pittsburgh's ice time at all. We aren't talking about Pittsburgh. One thing that is funny about the ice times you gave for Staal, Malkin and Crsoby is that if you add up their ice time, those three played a combined 64:18 per game. I guess Pittsburgh when to overtime and a shootout about 80 times last year? No, more than likely someone played on the wing? Just like Carter perhaps?

There are two Flyers fans in here saying Carter played wing and did it well last year and only you are saying other wise. You are also claiming Carter was a 3rd liner, which is false.

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Old
02-23-2012, 11:00 AM
  #74
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The Kings really should become sellers at this point. No reason to give somebody an easy first round even if the Kings should make the playoffs by some miracle.

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02-23-2012, 08:38 PM
  #75
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Good call, Mayor.

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