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ATD 2012 Lineup Advice Thread

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Old
02-20-2012, 07:09 PM
  #276
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
How did the other centres do when they played against him?
Don't care.

We know Fedorov was good defensively. All I care about is figuring out how good he was offensively.

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02-20-2012, 07:12 PM
  #277
Nalyd Psycho
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I think he's going to be fine with Harvey. Harvey masks a pretty decent amount of his deficincies, namely being small, with his being the best defensive guy ever.

That 1945 season goes both ways Sturm. Yeah Frank Eddols finished 5th in voting, but Harmon also beat out Earl Seibert, Dit Clapper (both of whom didn't receive any other votes at other positions, meaning they were defensemen this season) and Jack Crawford, two guys who are considered #1s here, and then a guy who is a #2/3. So I don't think that that 2nd team All-Star in 1945 was a weak one by any stretch. Just because it was war depleted doesn't mean that there weren't still high end defensemen out there. And I think he has more than token consideration other seasons. He got votes two other seasons in All-Star voting, plus made the All-Star game based on merit (i.e., he wasn't a member of the Cup Winner the previous year) a year that we don't have the voting numbers for, meaning I feel pretty confident he probably got votes that year as well. I am fully willing to agree he's one of the lower end first-pairing guys here, but I defintiely do not think he'll get eaten alive either.
A 38 year old Clapper and a 34 year old Seibert.

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02-20-2012, 07:14 PM
  #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Don't care.

We know Fedorov was good defensively. All I care about is figuring out how good he was offensively.
Fedorov has a top-10 resume offensively in the playoffs in my opinion. He wasn't as good in the regular season.

He was second on the Wings' depth chart down the middle, obviously behind Yzerman.

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02-20-2012, 07:21 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
A 38 year old Clapper and a 34 year old Seibert.
Clapper I buy as he was at the end of his career and was coaching as well as playing at that time, but not Seibert. Seibert was coming off of his TENTH All-Star season in a row that year, and was still great.

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02-20-2012, 07:22 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Fedorov has a top-10 resume offensively in the playoffs in my opinion. He wasn't as good in the regular season.

He was second on the Wings' depth chart down the middle, obviously behind Yzerman.
Personally, I don't just look at the play-off resume. I look at the whole picture. Basically, I take the regular season performance and adjust for the play-offs.

Fedorov, it appears, is a weak offensive threat who gets better in the play-offs.

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02-20-2012, 07:28 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Personally, I don't just look at the play-off resume. I look at the whole picture. Basically, I take the regular season performance and adjust for the play-offs.

Fedorov, it appears, is a weak offensive threat who gets better in the play-offs.
I wouldn't call him weak.

1. His weaker percentages come in higher scoring years.
2. He played behind Yzerman.
3. He led Wings' forwards in scoring four times, (in the lockout year, he played five games less than Yzerman and had 12 more points)

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02-20-2012, 07:32 PM
  #282
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[QUOTE=Velociraptor;44526813]I wouldn't call him weak.

1. His weaker percentages come in higher scoring years.
[QUOTE]

The point of percentages is to adjust for scoring. If you are using them at all, it doesn't matter whether it was a high or low scoring year, right?

Quote:
2. He played behind Yzerman.
3. He led Wings' forwards in scoring four times, (in the lockout year, he played five games less than Yzerman and had 12 more points)
The fact that Yzerman always got the better linemates and the first line center spot on the PP is definitely a factor though.

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02-20-2012, 07:39 PM
  #283
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[QUOTE=TheDevilMadeMe;44527001][QUOTE=Velociraptor;44526813]I wouldn't call him weak.

1. His weaker percentages come in higher scoring years.
Quote:

The point of percentages is to adjust for scoring. If you are using them at all, it doesn't matter whether it was a high or low scoring year, right?



The fact that Yzerman always got the better linemates and the first line center spot on the PP is definitely a factor though.
Yeah, agreed on point one, that was foolish on my behalf.

But 2 and 3 are undeniable factors, Fedorov is definitely a strong factor offensively.

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02-20-2012, 07:50 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
1. His weaker percentages come in higher scoring years.
Percentages make the scoring level irrelevant. That's why people use them.

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02-20-2012, 09:43 PM
  #285
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In Fedorov's 13 years with Detroit, he finished lower than a tie for second in team playoff scoring only once, tumbling all the way to 4th.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showpost.php?p=14929789&postcount=43

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02-21-2012, 02:34 AM
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Clapper I buy as he was at the end of his career and was coaching as well as playing at that time, but not Seibert. Seibert was coming off of his TENTH All-Star season in a row that year, and was still great.
Nah...don't buy it. 1944-45 is likely just the year that Seibert "lost it". He was out of the league the next season.


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02-21-2012, 08:22 AM
  #287
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The fact that Yzerman always got the better linemates and the first line center spot on the PP is definitely a factor though.
The fact that Yzerman's line always attracted the top checkers is also definitely a factor. And didn't Fedorov often play the point on the Detroit PP during those years? I don't think his PP time was all that low, but somebody would have to check that stat to be sure. At any rate, I don't see any reason why we should ignore Fedorov's entire body of work when the playoffs start, and his regular season scoring is very low for a first line center in the ATD. This isn't The All Time Playoffs Draft.

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02-21-2012, 08:35 AM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
The fact that Yzerman's line always attracted the top checkers is also definitely a factor. And didn't Fedorov often play the point on the Detroit PP during those years? I don't think his PP time was all that low, but somebody would have to check that stat to be sure. At any rate, I don't see any reason why we should ignore Fedorov's entire body of work when the playoffs start, and his regular season scoring is very low for a first line center in the ATD. This isn't The All Time Playoffs Draft.
I thought Fedorov faced the tougher competition, not Yzerman. He matched up against top centres like Forsberg and Modano in the playoffs.

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02-21-2012, 08:58 AM
  #289
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
I thought Fedorov faced the tougher competition, not Yzerman. He matched up against top centres like Forsberg and Modano in the playoffs.
Modano is sort of a special case in that he was Dallas' best offensive and defensive center, but I believe the Yzerman line was generally the one that opponents focused on shutting down offensively.

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02-21-2012, 09:18 AM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Modano is sort of a special case in that he was Dallas' best offensive and defensive center, but I believe the Yzerman line was generally the one that opponents focused on shutting down offensively.
Fedorov and Yzerman played together for over a decade so it may not be accurate to make general statements.

I think Fedorov was viewed as Detroit's top centre in the playoffs at least from 1994 to 1997.

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02-21-2012, 11:21 AM
  #291
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The point of percentages is to adjust for scoring. If you are using them at all, it doesn't matter whether it was a high or low scoring year, right?
Right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
At any rate, I don't see any reason why we should ignore Fedorov's entire body of work when the playoffs start, and his regular season scoring is very low for a first line center in the ATD. This isn't The All Time Playoffs Draft.
I 100% agree. With that said, he is a 2nd liner here so that helps.

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02-22-2012, 01:31 PM
  #292
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Thoughts on my top 4:

Al MacInnis - Jacques Laperierre
Herb Gardiner - Barclay Plager

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02-22-2012, 02:12 PM
  #293
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I'm not a fan of Plager in a top-4 role. He was a nice, solid defenseman in St. Louis, but he was never really considered one of the best defensemen in league. I think there are still guys out there who were better.

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02-22-2012, 07:43 PM
  #294
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seventies, jarek, Sturm, anyone not in the draft, are you willing to answer a PM question I have about advice. I hate asking but I'm really struggling to figure out what I want to do with something....

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02-22-2012, 07:57 PM
  #295
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seventies, jarek, Sturm, anyone not in the draft, are you willing to answer a PM question I have about advice. I hate asking but I'm really struggling to figure out what I want to do with something....
The European Bobby Orr is still available:


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02-22-2012, 08:03 PM
  #296
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Can I get in on this advice from 70's and Sturm bandwagon? (And Jarek too..more the merrier).

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02-22-2012, 08:27 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I'm not a fan of Plager in a top-4 role. He was a nice, solid defenseman in St. Louis, but he was never really considered one of the best defensemen in league. I think there are still guys out there who were better.
I like him, but probably not in a top-4 role either. He did get some scattered all-star votes, but very little. He wasn't even always their #1 defenseman based on TOI. Even in the MLD there are plenty of defensemen who have a string of years as a #1.

He is a legend to St. Louis - absolutely beloved there. And I think that overpowers his resume as a player. Not saying he's an MLD scrub... but probably best on a 3rd pairing.

You probably want more of a puckmover on the 2nd pairing with Gardiner anyway - ideally, at least.

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02-22-2012, 08:29 PM
  #298
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With Herbie Lewis - Fedorov - Reggie Leach, does everyone see that as a strong line?

Lewis - two-way playmaker
Fedorov - Selke caliber offensive player
Leach - sniper

Lewis and Fedorov are good enough defensively for the line, and there's a lot of playmaking, so the line will get the most out of Leach's scoring ability. Didn't get the response I was looking for the first time around, but we've established that Fedorov's regular season offense is not shabby for a second line centre.

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02-22-2012, 08:40 PM
  #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Thoughts on my top 4:

Al MacInnis - Jacques Laperierre
Herb Gardiner - Barclay Plager
2nd pairing is pretty underwhelming compared to most.

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02-22-2012, 08:53 PM
  #300
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2nd pairing is pretty underwhelming compared to most.
I wouldn't say that. Gardiner is a top-end #3, and Plager a lower-tier #4. it's probably about an average pairing.

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