Last year a friend of mine (sens fan) and I were always debating on who was better.
Subban hasn't helped my argument too much, but i still believe in him. I know that Karlsson is as soft as butter and defensively liable, but i'm talking strickly offensive and vision.
Do you guys believe that he can one day surpass Karlsson points wise? If sens proposed a 1 on 1 trade who with Karlsson and Subban do you do it?
Karlsson is the closest thing to Paul Coffey that I have seen since 1989....
Subban is the better player, overall - imho. Just like there were d-men better than Coffey in his era....
All that said Karlsson is amazing.... best looking offensive d-man to come along since Coffey (HM to Phil Housley).
The money there going to have to devote to karlsson isn't gonna be worth it, along with the fact that subbans offensive game will return the difference in defense is defintely going to make up the difference.
Subban this year is on bad team in a bad situation similar to what Karlsson was last year with the Sens. There are always growing pains for a young player and especially young defenseman. I will not write PK off he is a very talented YOUNG players. Give him time.
Karlsson is the closest thing to Paul Coffey that I have seen since 1989....
Subban is the better player, overall - imho. Just like there were d-men better than Coffey in his era....
All that said Karlsson is amazing.... best looking offensive d-man to come along since Coffey (HM to Phil Housley).
And Macinnis..although Al put up points in very different ways.
Agreed though. Karlsson has had some good defensive moments but I remember at times he was pretty awful. If he progresses in his own end though, he has a HHOF potential career if he keeps it up.
Subban definitely is a little more sound defensively. Decision-making needs some work, but his overall defensive game is pretty decent. Offensively, he isn't on Karlsson's level but if he can put it all together, he shouldn't be that far off. However, I'm talking about PK's top ceiling here.
I still would rather have the physical and more sound defender, although Karlsson is flat out amazing and I am likely just biased.
No, he will not be as good offensively. Karlsson is a 50-60pt Dman. Subban 35-45pts. Not bad but not as good. Karlsson is having a dream year and is clicking massively on the PP. If MTL PP was any good Subban could easily have 10-20 pts more already this season.
Yes, he will be much better defensively, as he already is and is continuing to improve there. Subban also adds a physical and phsycological aspect that Karlsson doesn't have.
Basically I see Subban as more complete. But Karlsson being the flashier, more offensively talented Dman.
Please, do not compare both players this year. Karlsson has exploded and he's the front runner for the Norris while Subban had set backs all year.
Karlsson this year is younger and much better than Subban, let's not make fouls of ourselves and compare both players this year... let Karlsson and Sens fans enjoy this year and wait for the future to see if Subban can approch what Karlsson is doing this year.
Last year a friend of mine (sens fan) and I were always debating on who was better.
Subban hasn't helped my argument too much, but i still believe in him. I know that Karlsson is as soft as butter and defensively liable, but i'm talking strickly offensive and vision.
Do you guys believe that he can one day surpass Karlsson points wise? If sens proposed a 1 on 1 trade who with Karlsson and Subban do you do it?
Subban is already much better defensively, he was getting tough matchups as a rookie. Plus he brings a physical dimension Karlsson doesn't have. Karlsson may end up better on pure offense, but overall Subban has more upside.
Difficult question to answer, but what I can tell you is that I'd take Subban on my team over Karlsson 9 times out of 10. As much as I can't stand him, Karlsson is a wildly talented offensive defensemen, although it seems like 50% of his points are secondary assists on the PP. But Karlsson is an absolute pylon, we're talking like Letang/Gonchar style pylon-ary, and he's small. So if Karlsson ends up being a consistent 60 point defenseman, and Subban ends up being a consistent 45 point defenseman, I'd take Subban based on physicality and defensive prowess.
Please, do not compare both players this year. Karlsson has exploded and he's the front runner for the Norris while Subban had set backs all year.
Karlsson this year is younger and much better than Subban, let's not make fouls of ourselves and compare both players this year... let Karlsson and Sens fans enjoy this year and wait for the future to see if Subban can approch what Karlsson is doing this year.
Pretty much this.
Right now one of the two is a Norris candidate. (Its not our guy.)
Right now one of the two is a Norris candidate. (Its not our guy.)
Not to cast myself as one with a rigid point of view on this... but I'd point out that Green was a Noris candidate... Coffey probably won one or two... Hously maybe too.
It's a trophy that is historically been for offensive d-men.
I keep trying (now, very consciously) to monitor Karlsson defensively, since I live in Ottawa, get lots of chances, and Sens fans continue to rave about him. And I still can't see anything but liability in his defensive game. Granted, a good offense is a good defense and transition is valuable and all that, but I mean just in his zone he's a mess. I like the Phil Housley comparison best. Dynamic on offense. Piles up points on the PP. And that's it.
Subban totally outclasses him defensively (and in terms of physicality and agitation). And while Karlsson totally outclasses Subban this year in terms of production, I would suggest that Subban's skillset says that won't necessarily always be the case. Subban has a lot of the skills that could let him explode in the right situation to achieve production similar to Karlsson's.
For now, I say it's a matter of taste whether you like Subban's better all-round game, or Karlsson's gamebreaking flash. But if Subban harnesses his own gamebreaking flash, it won't be close. I wouldn't swap Subban for Karlsson even with this year's seeming disparity in progression between the two.
I keep trying (now, very consciously) to monitor Karlsson defensively, since I live in Ottawa, get lots of chances, and Sens fans continue to rave about him. And I still can't see anything but liability in his defensive game. Granted, a good offense is a good defense and transition is valuable and all that, but I mean just in his zone he's a mess. I like the Phil Housley comparison best. Dynamic on offense. Piles up points on the PP. And that's it.
Subban totally outclasses him defensively (and in terms of physicality and agitation). And while Karlsson totally outclasses Subban this year in terms of production, I would suggest that Subban's skillset says that won't necessarily always be the case. Subban has a lot of the skills that could let him explode in the right situation to achieve production similar to Karlsson's.
For now, I say it's a matter of taste whether you like Subban's better all-round game, or Karlsson's gamebreaking flash. But if Subban harnesses his own gamebreaking flash, it won't be close. I wouldn't swap Subban for Karlsson even with this year's seeming disparity in progression between the two.
I completely agree with everything you just wrote here.
Like you i also live in Ottawa and have to put up with Sens fans all the time...everytime i've watched Karlsson i've come away feeling the same way.
He will always be a bigger point producer than Subban, but i just naturally prefer the type of game Subban plays.
I keep trying (now, very consciously) to monitor Karlsson defensively, since I live in Ottawa, get lots of chances, and Sens fans continue to rave about him. And I still can't see anything but liability in his defensive game. Granted, a good offense is a good defense and transition is valuable and all that, but I mean just in his zone he's a mess. I like the Phil Housley comparison best. Dynamic on offense. Piles up points on the PP. And that's it.
Subban totally outclasses him defensively (and in terms of physicality and agitation). And while Karlsson totally outclasses Subban this year in terms of production, I would suggest that Subban's skillset says that won't necessarily always be the case. Subban has a lot of the skills that could let him explode in the right situation to achieve production similar to Karlsson's.
For now, I say it's a matter of taste whether you like Subban's better all-round game, or Karlsson's gamebreaking flash. But if Subban harnesses his own gamebreaking flash, it won't be close. I wouldn't swap Subban for Karlsson even with this year's seeming disparity in progression between the two.
Mike Green's Norris nomination season is a good comparable to Karlsson's season. Green's greater production went hand in hand with him playing easier minutes that year than Karlsson is now in terms of strength of opposition and offensive zone starts. Like Green Karlsson finishes shifts more often in the defensive zone than he starts in the offensive zone which is a worrying sign.
Karlsson's having a great season. Though I don't think he deserves to win a Norris trophy and I'm not sure yet about him being top-3 a part of me hopes he wins it so Ottawa gives him a big contract. Very good player but like Green or Phaneuf before I don't think he's Norris-nominee worthy yet.
For now, I say it's a matter of taste whether you like Subban's better all-round game, or Karlsson's gamebreaking flash. But if Subban harnesses his own gamebreaking flash, it won't be close. I wouldn't swap Subban for Karlsson even with this year's seeming disparity in progression between the two.
I think if you did a poll of GM in the NHL who you would rather have on your team Subban or Karlson I think the decision would be pretty unanimous. Karlsons defensive game is underrated he does lead there team in ice time. Thats not even mentioning he has a third more points then any other D-man in the NHL and is playing on a team that most people said wouldn't make the playoffs.
Not to cast myself as one with a rigid point of view on this... but I'd point out that Green was a Noris candidate... Coffey probably won one or two... Hously maybe too.
It's a trophy that is historically been for offensive d-men.
Coffey won 3, Housley never won the Norris but he was a runner up in 1992.
It's pretty ridiculous that people still think that being better means scoring more points.
Karlsson isn't all that great defensively. He is better offensively, and it's not even close. But defensively, Subban and, as well, it's not even close.
It's pretty ridiculous that people still think that being better means scoring more points.
Karlsson isn't all that great defensively. He is better offensively, and it's not even close. But defensively, Subban and, as well, it's not even close.
Being in Ottawa I watch Karlsson a lot and I can tell you he has played better defensively than Subban has this year. No doubt about that.
Difficult to project right now but fans on this forum may be a bit too sanguine about Subban's career. I'd also say that if the two had switched this season, the Habs would be in the playoffs and so would the Sens.
Last edited by Teufelsdreck: 02-23-2012 at 09:17 AM.
I keep trying (now, very consciously) to monitor Karlsson defensively, since I live in Ottawa, get lots of chances, and Sens fans continue to rave about him. And I still can't see anything but liability in his defensive game. Granted, a good offense is a good defense and transition is valuable and all that, but I mean just in his zone he's a mess. I like the Phil Housley comparison best. Dynamic on offense. Piles up points on the PP. And that's it.
Subban totally outclasses him defensively (and in terms of physicality and agitation). And while Karlsson totally outclasses Subban this year in terms of production, I would suggest that Subban's skillset says that won't necessarily always be the case. Subban has a lot of the skills that could let him explode in the right situation to achieve production similar to Karlsson's.
For now, I say it's a matter of taste whether you like Subban's better all-round game, or Karlsson's gamebreaking flash. But if Subban harnesses his own gamebreaking flash, it won't be close. I wouldn't swap Subban for Karlsson even with this year's seeming disparity in progression between the two.
I haven't seen enough of Karlson to be able to comment on his D, I just see him on highlight reels every night for his amazing offense.
As for PK, his D isn't great. I have zero doubt that he will improve but he makes very bad decisions with the puck and is prone to unforced giveaways. I'm reading in this thread about how great he is defensively and that's just not the case. He's certainly not bad but he's got a long way to go before I'd call him great. Too many mistakes right now and he's just not there yet.
As for PK's offense. I'll be shocked if he doesn't at least become a 50+ point guy. He's just too skilled not to reach that number.
