Not a big fan of Karlsson. I like my DEFENCEmen to be good at DEFENCE.
no knock on karlsson but i prefer subban's all around game with the offensive upside still there. karlsson just does whatever the hell he wants and expects his team mates to cover for him. im exaggerating a bit of course, but you get the idea. and with subban, we have the added bonus of knowing he's clutch in the playoffs and when it counts.
i didn't like it when people said - and still say - that the coaches are reigning in subban, i see it as a good thing. that other side of subban will always be there, better to teach them defense when they are young.
and "karlsson will get better defensively with age, don't worry..." same thing was said of green and he's still lost in his own zone. and lets not forget that the motto in ottawa this season basically is: "have fun". i don't think you can ice a playoff winning team when one defenseman's running around making being out of position into a hobby
i hope im not sounding like im bashing karlsson because that's not what im trying to do at all. the choice is close, but i chose subban over karlsson because he has more rounded skills than karlsson.
he is exciting to watch though
@nittany: karlsson better than subban defensively? o'****ing lawl
Like Green Karlsson finishes shifts more often in the defensive zone than he starts in the offensive zone which is a worrying sign.
Exactly what I was about to point out.
Looking at behind the net, 56.4% O zone start but sub 50% Ozone finish? Though he's less sheltered than I tought he was in terms of opposition, that's, like you said, not a very good sign.
Reading some comments about Subban not being very good defensively....
I tought Subban might have been slightly overrated before I began looking at advanced stats but he's probably underrated actually. He's an absolute puck possession beast.
To the OP, I don't think Subban will ever put up points like that, tough I wonder what his numbers would look like with over 50% Ozone start, his defensive value probably means he'll never get used like that.
I already said said that I don't think Subban will ever put up the same kinds of numbers as a prime Markov (I know we're talking about Karlsson but just to make a point) but he'll probably end up being the better even strenght tough minutes Dman (and I didn't analyse hockey all that much during Markov's peak but I've seen some people that did make the argument that he already is... at 22 so that's pretty scary to think about) and Markov was much better defensively than Karlsson is so I think he'll be the better overall D.
It's pretty ridiculous that people still think that being better means scoring more points.
Karlsson isn't all that great defensively. He is better offensively, and it's not even close. But defensively, Subban and, as well, it's not even close.
Funny the stats don't tell the same story, Karlsson's numbers are fantastic at both ends of the ice.
I don't think he's better defensively than Subban, but so far, he's shown his offensive repertoire and decision making is miles ahead of Subban.
You can always work on the defensive (though I'm not sure how good he'll be considering he's tiny), but that offense is just natural. He's a gamebreaker at this point, and I can't say Subban has shown that ability this year.
Being in Ottawa I watch Karlsson a lot and I can tell you he has played better defensively than Subban has this year. No doubt about that.
This is a ridiculous statement...
Karlsson is having a monster year so it's hard to pick Subban today, although, given the choice, I'd take Subban everytime, he's a much more complete defensman.
Karlsson's taken strides in his own end but he's still pretty clueless defensively. Also, he's got way more rope to play offensively than PK Subban does.
There's a misconception that Subban is having a bad year...that's such a 'low-hanging fruit' argument. Subban has huge strides in becoming a more complete dman and a few years from now when he's one of the NHL's most complete dmen, we can look back at his performance this year as a big reason why.
Let's see how he does when the physicality and obstruction picks up in the play-offs.
dude might got hurt unless they give him a couple of hamburgers.
He has already been in the playoffs, and was lined up against Malkin. He did pretty good for himself. 1 goal 6 assits in 6 games as a 19 year old. Every single one of your commments so far in this thread seem to be completely opinion based, while the exact opposite of what you have said can be proven.
Hi guys. Pretty interesting read so far with varying opinions. Personally I ranked Subban in the top 10 D under 25, FWIW.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humpty Dumpty
Karlsson is a feather....
Let's see how he does when the physicality and obstruction picks up in the play-offs.
dude might got hurt unless they give him a couple of hamburgers.
Just wanted to clarify that as a 19 year (and one would assume smaller at the time) he scored 6 points in 6 playoff games losing to the Pens.
This report shows that Karlsson (19 here, too) didn't even leave the ice after the hit (granted it would have taken time to replace the glass) and in fact came out for 7 more shifts- including his last one in OT, where he set up the winner.
Yea Karlsson right now is miles ahead of PK offensively, but I still take PK over Karlsson long term, Call me a homer I don't care. PK has the body to physically dominate once he matures in both ends of the ice. Hes already shown at a very young age that he can go head to head vs Lucic and Horton to shut them down and score a game 7 tying goal with a minute to go. Look Karlsson is an great talent but I still value PK more going forward.
Yeah kind of hard to compare them right now... Subban is having a bad year in terms of his potential and Karlsson is playing lights out lol.. I expect a really good season from Subban next year though
Karlsson has been a better overall player than Subban has this year.
I have no idea how people can honestly argue against that.
That being said, Subban can play much better than he has this year.
it's hard to argue otherwise considering the points karlsson is putting up this year but again, i'd argue it's closer than you think. i have no doubts karlsson will consistently put more points on the boards than subban (although subban has yet to be 'unleashed' offensively so to speak) but on the flip-side, im fairly sure subban will be the more complete defensman. now and in the future.
this thread will be flooded by ottawa fans calling us homer in no time anyways so enjoy the conversation while it lasts.
P.S., born, raised in gatineau, and still a sens fans. so it's not like i only see karlsson when he's playing against us
What a bunch of homers! Subban isn't even close Karlsson.
Try putting this on the main board and see what happens.
It would be ripped apart for sure. Karlsson is having an amazing year and Pk hasn't produced what was expected. Again, I haven't seen enough of Karlsson to fairly comment on his D but I'll assume he's at least average. Is Karlsson better now and having a better year? Based on the points totals anyway it seems open and shut.
That being said, I think PK has the raw skills to be an elite talent when he puts it all together. In five years I think this will be a much closer contest than it is this year.
Folks on the main board will laugh and snicker, but that's what usually happens when you're comparing a guy having a great year vs. one who's underperforming. I don't know if PK will ever be as good but I think this contest will be a lot closer than it is now. I firmly believe that PK will be an elite level blueliner. It could happen as soon as next year or it may take some more time. But I believe it's going to happen and when it does, I see him as a Norris calibre blueliner.
Folks around here know I'm not a blind 'homer'... this is just my objective opinion on a player that I've been lucky enough to watch develop over the past few years. I really believe in this guy and as much as people would get laughed at in the Main Forum for believing this will be closer than it appears now, I think a lot of hockey Execs out there would feel the same way. Mike Keenan himself said he sees PK as becoming another Chris Chelios... that's high praise coming from the man who coached him. And it took Chelios a while to develop too. Give it five years and ask the question again. I think the results will be a lot different than they are today.
No, he will not be as good offensively. Karlsson is a 50-60pt Dman. Subban 35-45pts. Not bad but not as good. Karlsson is having a dream year and is clicking massively on the PP. If MTL PP was any good Subban could easily have 10-20 pts more already this season.
Yes, he will be much better defensively, as he already is and is continuing to improve there. Subban also adds a physical and phsycological aspect that Karlsson doesn't have.
Basically I see Subban as more complete. But Karlsson being the flashier, more offensively talented Dman.
Thats not it, he is second in points among D on the PP but has far more points than anyone else at ES.
Wow... Guys... Come on. I appreciate that there are a few of you who seem to be able to discuss this and be rational, but who would pick Subban over Karlsson at this point. Karlsson has emerged as one of the most electrifying players in the league this year.
For those of you going with the popular belief of "Oh he's a huge defensive liability" bull****, I invite you to watch a game. You clearly haven't. I know RDS only covers the Canadiens or francophone players, but you gotta know what you're talking about before making comments like that. FYI, Mike Green wasn't a defensive liability either.
Last edited by hototogisu: 02-23-2012 at 12:04 PM.
Wow... Guys... Come on. I appreciate that there are a few of you who seem to be able to discuss this and be rational, but who would pick Subban over Karlsson at this point. Karlsson has emerged as one of the most electrifying players in the league this year.
For those of you going with the popular belief of "Oh he's a huge defensive liability" bullsh*t, I invite you to watch a game. You clearly haven't. I know RDS only covers the Canadiens or francophone players, but you gotta know what you're talking about before making comments like that. FYI, Mike Green wasn't a defensive liability either.
On this I have to disagree. Mike Green IS most definitely a liability. And he played the worst playoff series I've ever seen an NHL player put together when he played against us a few years back. You are way wrong on this one.
